Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[harr1984]

Isn't that Levy's whole reasoning for a new stadium, we need it to compete with wages and fees?

I don’t know, I’ve never really read anything from him on the subject - I’ve hoped that was the primary reason for it of course....

 

[StephenH]

Isn't that Levy's whole reasoning for a new stadium, we need it to compete with wages and fees?

It is yes, but it will take a period for the new stadiums extra income to kick in!
I personally am not saying this season is a problem. More that if we expect much more than what we have now, Pochettino will require more finance now.
I think we can battle away possibly with Liverpool and possible Arsenal and yes get forth. But I honestly think we will fall a little short. It's just I think it's being realistic.

 

[parklane1]

We all recognise what Poch has done and is building. But you can dress it up any way you want, football is a results business and his legacy will be judged on what he wins. He has developed us no doubt, but the hardest thing in football is winning things as he has found out - hes come close to an FA Cup final, and come close ish to the league (positional wise, never really worried either title winner) which is great. But he needs to take that final hurdle soon, questions are already raised about how we dont win trophies - The players mention it, Poch himself keeps on going on about it so you cant hide behind the 'we punch above our weight' argument forever....

I am a BIG fan of Poch and he is without a doubt ( imo) the best manager we have had since KB, but i agree we have to start winning things and i have always said that on here. tinkles me off when i hear some fans say that the BIG clubs do not care about the league/FA Cup its gonads and it looks like the SF of this same LG ( you know the one that the big clubs do not give a brick about) will be made up of those BIG clubs.

We have lost Walker and probably Rose already and if we do not start winning things i fear others will follow. Of course wages come into it but so do medals for footballers.

 

[billyiddo]

This season has seen the rebalancing of the premiership along the lines of spending power.
The last two seasons are in hindsight looking like there was a lot more turbulent for a few of the top sides. That is over with table stacking up along financial lines.
Pochettino will struggle until we work out how to catch firstly the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool.

Assuming City United and Chelsea consistently perform to their financial level each season sure - however i dont think that's at all likely and all three clubs will have their peaks and dips in form over the coming years and no reason why we cant look outpetform them again

 

[StephenH]

Assuming City United and Chelsea consistently perform to their financial level each season sure - however i dont think that's at all likely and all three clubs will have their peaks and dips in form over the coming years and no reason why we cant look outpetform them again

As you say there is a fair chance others will have their ups and downs. Pochettino has done very well over the past 3 campaigns and is still I believe hugely overachieving when you take into account the competition and their financial advantage.
This season the two manchester clubs have as you mentioned above have definitely gained greater consistency, making better use of their financial muscle. City I think have won it and sucked the oxgen out of Chelsea's especially and also Man U campaigns. (I hope that my predictions prove as accurate as normal)
Leaving Pool, Arsenal and ourselves trying for forth. If he manages to do it, I believe it will have been his biggest achievement to date as or manager.

 

[Robspur12]

As you say there is a fair chance others will have their ups and downs. Pochettino has done very well over the past 3 campaigns and is still I believe hugely overachieving when you take into account the competition and their financial advantage.
This season the two manchester clubs have as you mentioned above have definitely gained greater consistency, making better use of their financial muscle. City I think have won it and sucked the oxgen out of Chelsea's especially and also Man U campaigns. (I hope that my predictions prove as accurate as normal)
Leaving Pool, Arsenal and ourselves trying for forth. If he manages to do it, I believe it will have been his biggest achievement to date as or manager.

I am not sure why fans write off the second place last season, where he finished ahead of big spending Guardiola and Mourinho as well as Klopp and Wenger. Will take a lot to top that.

 

[StephenH]

I am not sure why fans write off the second place last season, where he finished ahead of big spending Guardiola and Mourinho as well as Klopp and Wenger. Will take a lot to top that.

The second place I think was phenomenal and I also would be baffled if anybody "wrote it off'.

This season though I think is different with the Manchester's having got their collective acts together and Chelsea well are still Chelsea! I think we are seeing the recalibration of the EPL back to the old and boring financial lines.

 

[tynesidespur]

The second place I think was phenomenal and I also would be baffled if anybody "wrote it off'.

This season though I think is different with the Manchester's having got their collective acts together and Chelsea well are still Chelsea! I think are seeing the recalibration of the EPL back to the old and boring financial lines.

and the fact we're playing 38 'away' games.

 

[StephenH]

and the fact we're playing 38 'away' games.

I would have thought the news stadium will take some getting used to with next season being a little disorientating.
But to be honest Wembley has been a lesser problem that I envisaged.

 

[Grays_1890]

I might sound like a loon but there is a balance on winning something and being a week in week out very good side which we are.

I would take this team over George Grahams and Ramos', I would rather win nothing and be where we are than Wigan, Swansea or either of the teams from the GG JR era.

I get people saying Poch will be judged on winning stuff but I would argue against that, if Spurs fans judge him for the job he has done which is fantastic then who is judging him on what he has won? The press and fans of other clubs sticking in the knife.

I can live with that to be honest, in my life as a Spurs fan this is the most enjoyable period that I can remember.

 

[thfcsteff]

I might sound like a loon but there is a balance on winning something and being a week in week out very good side which we are.

I would take this team over George Grahams and Ramos', I would rather win nothing and be where we are than Wigan, Swansea or either of the teams from the GG JR era.

I get people saying Poch will be judged on winning stuff but I would argue against that, if Spurs fans judge him for the job he has done which is fantastic then who is judging him on what he has won? The press and fans of other clubs sticking in the knife.

I can live with that to be honest, in my life as a Spurs fan this is the most enjoyable period that I can remember.

The GGG ‘trophy’ practically does not exist to me. I hated the bloke.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[DubaiSpur]

@DubaiSpur

Just to add in to what a few people have been getting at in the latter pages here, I think most will agree there is nothing wrong with criticism levelled at anyone, no matter how successful. It’s how anyone improves. And Poch has shown himself to be a pretty great combination of confident enough in his beliefs but adaptable enough to learn throughout his time here. He will likely continue to do that.

The problem is with the nature of the criticism levelled him. I’m on my phone right now so it’s not easy to find the precise posts, but from memory you have called him too stubborn, too arrogant (I think) and have accused him of not being able to see things that you could see, or that he chooses not to see or act upon them, because of one of the aforementioned personality flaws.

And that last point is what is not ok. Because you really have no idea what he is thinking, what he sees, what he views as important going forward and what he sees in training all week. None of us do. Can he learn? Yes, everyone can. Which is why I bet he invited Conte to our training ground a couple of years ago. It’s why he’ll travel the world on the time off he gets to take in other football cultures and generate new ideas. It’s why he had a lunch with SAF. And if all else fails, he will ask his trusted assistants to tell him like it is if they feel like not everything is being done they could be done.

He will learn. No one knows it is more important than him. But he doesn’t deserve his personality traits called into question, and he doesn’t deserve (and I mean this in the nicest possible way) his tactical decisions being called out in such a manner by someone that doesn’t know 1/100000th of what he does about football. There could have been a million reasons he chose to set up the way he did, based on a level of analysis and data that we are nowhere close to having access to. There could also have been a million reasons why he chose to keep persisting with Trippier. Maybe Trippier wasn’t following instructions. Maybe the players expected to cover him weren’t doing their jobs and it actually required the shape being adjusted elsewhere. Maybe he simply thought it would be a good learning experience for Trippier to get roasted one on one to see if he could learn and adapt, making him a better player in the future. It could be a bunch of other things that I have no comprehension about.

Question our set up, say what you would have done differently by all means, it is what a discussion forum is for. But don’t call into question his personality and claim it was obviously a personality flaw because *you* know your tactics, because frankly he deserves better, he has earned better and it is just a bit arrogant to be claiming things about tactics and using that to claim things about personality flaws when you just don’t know.

Someone above made a great point, this team has earned trust and they deserve at least this season and the first in the new ground before serious pressure should be applied. It was always likely this couple of years would be a struggle and the absolute worst thing to do would be to allow undue pressure to build on Poch and allow a swell of opinion to start when he is clearly excellent at what he does. He deserves to see us through this with respect.

I just wanted to say that a) I liked this post because of the effort you put into it, and b) I replied to Steff on the match thread in a manner which covers most of the points you brought up here. And you're right - I apologize, I shouldn't have called his character into question in the way I did. He's earned enough trust to avoid that.

But, I will dispute the possible reasons you brought up for why he didn't sub Trippier. If Trippier wasn't following instructions, subbing him would be the logical move, surely. If the players aren't doing their jobs covering him (and they *weren't* - I'm not excusing Dembele and the rest of the team in this, not by any means), change it so they do their jobs. It didn't happen, bar a 10-minute spell after half-time - then, Trippier was exposed again, just as easily as before. In terms of a learning experience for Trippier,this isn't the first time he's been left for dead by a good player - he was roasted by Martial at the Lane last season, and he was skinned by Marcos Alonso against Chelsea this year. He's not great - he's solid enough, but he's just not great, and I don't think he'd learn more from being utterly left for dead by Sane than he would from having the same done to him by, say, Martial or Alonso.

This is why I was baffled in the first place - the more I looked at it, the less it made sense, because I considered the same things you brought up, and dismissed them for the reasons listed above.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I just wanted to say that a) I liked this post because of the effort you put into it, and b) I replied to Steff on the match thread in a manner which covers most of the points you brought up here. And you're right - I apologize, I shouldn't have called his character into question in the way I did. He's earned enough trust to avoid that.

But, I will dispute the possible reasons you brought up for why he didn't sub Trippier. If Trippier wasn't following instructions, subbing him would be the logical move, surely. If the players aren't doing their jobs covering him (and they *weren't* - I'm not excusing Dembele and the rest of the team in this, not by any means), change it so they do their jobs. It didn't happen, bar a 10-minute spell after half-time - then, Trippier was exposed again, just as easily as before. In terms of a learning experience for Trippier,this isn't the first time he's been left for dead by a good player - he was roasted by Martial at the Lane last season, and he was skinned by Marcos Alonso against Chelsea this year. He's not great - he's solid enough, but he's just not great, and I don't think he'd learn more from being utterly left for dead by Sane than he would from having the same done to him by, say, Martial or Alonso.

This is why I was baffled in the first place - the more I looked at it, the less it made sense, because I considered the same things you brought up, and dismissed them for the reasons listed above.

Fair comments about Trippier's susceptibility against slick opponents and I agree it massively begs the question exactly why, given how savagely he was being exposed at the back, did Poch not replace him? I have no idea why but you surely have to assume Poch had his reasons. Maybe he distrusted Aurier more? Maybe he still hoped whilst it was at 0-1 that Tripps could be the game changer down the other end by unpicking their susceptible and occasionally exposed defence with one of his brilliant first-touch crosses or through balls? Who knows.

All we can say is he is far better placed to judge and weigh up his options than any of us sitting watching a screen at home.

 

[harr1984]

I just wanted to say that a) I liked this post because of the effort you put into it, and b) I replied to Steff on the match thread in a manner which covers most of the points you brought up here. And you're right - I apologize, I shouldn't have called his character into question in the way I did. He's earned enough trust to avoid that.

But, I will dispute the possible reasons you brought up for why he didn't sub Trippier. If Trippier wasn't following instructions, subbing him would be the logical move, surely. If the players aren't doing their jobs covering him (and they *weren't* - I'm not excusing Dembele and the rest of the team in this, not by any means), change it so they do their jobs. It didn't happen, bar a 10-minute spell after half-time - then, Trippier was exposed again, just as easily as before. In terms of a learning experience for Trippier,this isn't the first time he's been left for dead by a good player - he was roasted by Martial at the Lane last season, and he was skinned by Marcos Alonso against Chelsea this year. He's not great - he's solid enough, but he's just not great, and I don't think he'd learn more from being utterly left for dead by Sane than he would from having the same done to him by, say, Martial or Alonso.

This is why I was baffled in the first place - the more I looked at it, the less it made sense, because I considered the same things you brought up, and dismissed them for the reasons listed above.

I think ulitimately Poch still views Trippier as the backup right back, but accepts it will take Aurier a season to get fully up to speed. Trippier is solid and reliable in 90% plus of games, and never really lets you down -just have to accept the occasional top class opponent is going to have him on toast. In a years time I think Aurier will be trusted for these encounters, and he has the tools to cope better....

 

[Finney Is Back]

It is yes, but it will take a period for the new stadiums extra income to kick in!
I personally am not saying this season is a problem. More that if we expect much more than what we have now, Pochettino will require more finance now.
I think we can battle away possibly with Liverpool and possible Arsenal and yes get forth. But I honestly think we will fall a little short. It's just I think it's being realistic.

Why will it take a period for the extra income to kick in?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I just wanted to say that a) I liked this post because of the effort you put into it, and b) I replied to Steff on the match thread in a manner which covers most of the points you brought up here. And you're right - I apologize, I shouldn't have called his character into question in the way I did. He's earned enough trust to avoid that.

But, I will dispute the possible reasons you brought up for why he didn't sub Trippier. If Trippier wasn't following instructions, subbing him would be the logical move, surely. If the players aren't doing their jobs covering him (and they *weren't* - I'm not excusing Dembele and the rest of the team in this, not by any means), change it so they do their jobs. It didn't happen, bar a 10-minute spell after half-time - then, Trippier was exposed again, just as easily as before. In terms of a learning experience for Trippier,this isn't the first time he's been left for dead by a good player - he was roasted by Martial at the Lane last season, and he was skinned by Marcos Alonso against Chelsea this year. He's not great - he's solid enough, but he's just not great, and I don't think he'd learn more from being utterly left for dead by Sane than he would from having the same done to him by, say, Martial or Alonso.

This is why I was baffled in the first place - the more I looked at it, the less it made sense, because I considered the same things you brought up, and dismissed them for the reasons listed above.

Fair enough on all points mate.

 

[StephenH]

Why will it take a period for the extra income to kick in?

It always does with these type of infrastructure upgrades. The revenue streams increases will come from tickets and naming first then I think Levy's NFL plans will be important.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

It always does with these type of infrastructure upgrades. The revenue bodies of running water increases will come from tickets and naming first then I think Levy's NFL plans will be important.

I’m keen to see how Finney views this because I’ve assumed the same. I thought the reason we maintained such a strict wage structure was because it was about regular income, it wasn’t that we wouldn’t have cash to hand if we did actually want to pay more, but we kept as it was because that’s how we could be sustainable.

But having a regular stadium of our own filling out at 60k each week, I’d expect us to offer some wage increases on contracts pretty swiftly when we get in there. In that it’s not about waiting until we’ve ‘saved up’ enough new money from the stadium, because we know we have a more regular increased stream. And this in turn also means we can get more and better credit from the banks.

I may be totally wrong, but I don’t see this idea that we are going to have to wait years to benefit.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think that regular income will increase instantly and significantly. The stadium is designed for year round use, outside of football especially. And thats outside of the potential NFL team up as well.

Then, as it becomes a "venue" Id expect more concerts and events - I agree this can take time to come through.

And, of course, there will be periodical things like naming rights as a boost/windfall.

BUT, Near double of capacity will instantly reflect in matchday revenue. The bar being open year round, the sports complex, museum, roof walk, conferencing facilities, megastore... It will all have an immediate and large impact. IMO of course.

 

[Spur of the moment]

I’m keen to see how Finney views this because I’ve assumed the same. I thought the reason we maintained such a strict wage structure was because it was about regular income, it wasn’t that we wouldn’t have cash to hand if we did actually want to pay more, but we kept as it was because that’s how we could be sustainable.

But having a regular stadium of our own filling out at 60k each week, I’d expect us to offer some wage increases on contracts pretty swiftly when we get in there. In that it’s not about waiting until we’ve ‘saved up’ enough new money from the stadium, because we know we have a more regular increased river of whizz. And this in turn also means we can get more and better credit from the banks.

I may be totally wrong, but I don’t see this idea that we are going to have to wait years to benefit.

I'm less optimistic. It's true Levy has said the new stadium costs will not affect investment into the team but new stadium costs always rise considerably above whatever budget was originally set. There are plenty enough signs that things could get even more difficult in the short- to mid-term, what with Brexit and the decline in the £. We are building at a very difficult time so if costs do overrun more than budgeted for we must expect Levy to keep a very tight rein on the purse strings until he's confident we have what might well turn out to be steadily mounting debts firmly under control.

Also we have to assume a fair chunk of the extra income from the stadium will be swallowed up by substantially increased wages all round. Any new arrivals of real quality and status would also expect commensurately bigger pay packets.

My guess is that there will be fewer big name arrivals than some expect beyond what might have to be financed by the sale of one or two of our own big names who may want away, eg Dele, Dier & Rose. Meaning instead of strengthening we will basically have to settle for standing still for a year or two.