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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Raziel said:
I don't, you have to define success, I look at it this way

- Is a cup (other than CL) any measurement of club progress/success in the modern game?
- Is league position (specifically top 4), not a more accurate measurement of elite level clubs?

Would it be good fun for the fans to have a cup final and the bragging rights of a Cup? = sure, we would all love it.
Was Jose/Conte/Wenger/Poch/Klopp/Pep's targets domestic cup or league position at beginning of season = no question it was league position.

League position guarantees money, tv, better promotion, attraction of CL football, etc. Cups are fleeting (if fun) moments in the sun that mean nothing (list off the 3 or 4 one off's in last 5 years who won domestics cups and are where today?)

Jose & Wenger are smart, they have used the cups as PR to buy them more time recently, but they know that isn't success. United didn't spend a billion dollars to buy a domestic cup or even Europa, just like Pool over the last 8 years and Scum next year, the desperation to get back into the top (league position) is obvious, failure to do so could be critical to long term for club.

Do I agree with it? no, I wish cups meant more, but if we care about where Spurs will be in 5-10 years, then 2nd is greater success than cups (other than CL)
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Despite what they may say in public, I believe that the only Premier League manager who wouldn't swap our season for theirs is Conte.
 
parklane1 said:
Well you answered your own question then, winning breeds a winning mentality and (before someone comes in and mentions the likes of Wigan etc) that is because they were not strong teams, we are and we should be going all out to win whatever we can.
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We should go on to win things because we are a good young team with our best years ahead of us and have a good young manager - not because of some mythical winning mentality that may be blessed upon us by winning a league cup or whatever
 
billyiddo said:
We should go on to win things because we are a good young team with our best years ahead of us and have a good young manager - not because of some mythical winning mentality that may be blessed upon us by winning a league cup or whatever
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If cups other than the CL meant anything, successful managers would take them seriously before the quarter finals.
 
billyiddo said:
It doesn't prove anything - cups are easier to win than the league and winning one before the other doesn't mean winning the first led to the second
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Well if cups are easier to win, we have an issue because we haven't been winning any of them either. Last time I checked a clubs honours list doesn't include second place finishes. We aren't going to be considered an elite club until silverware starts coming in, will just constantly have that 'bridesmaid' tag at best....
 
milo said:
If cups other than the CL meant anything, successful managers would take them seriously before the quarter finals.
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Rotating the squad doesn't mean they don't take them seriously. You can't expect any team to compete on multiple fronts without using the squad - hence why the main men are on the bench and used more often than not if one of said teams are in trouble....
 
harr1984 said:
Well if cups are easier to win, we have an issue because we haven't been winning any of them either. Last time I checked a clubs honours list doesn't include second place finishes. We aren't going to be considered an elite club until silverware starts coming in, will just constantly have that 'bridesmaid' tag at best....
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I don't disagree that we need to win trophies.

Now that we have built the team we have that should follow if we keep them together
 
harr1984 said:
Rotating the squad doesn't mean they don't take them seriously. You can't expect any team to compete on multiple fronts without using the squad - hence why the main men are on the bench and used more often than not if one of said teams are in trouble....
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They are not a priority for the big clubs or relegation threatened teams any more. The bottom half of the table's priority is staying in the PL, the top sixes priority is finishing in the top four. It's sad but it is the reality of the situation.
 
harr1984 said:
Well if cups are easier to win, we have an issue because we haven't been winning any of them either. Last time I checked a clubs honours list doesn't include second place finishes. We aren't going to be considered an elite club until silverware starts coming in, will just constantly have that 'bridesmaid' tag at best....
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We will not be considered an elite club until we can compete financially with the big clubs. Winning the FA cup next season and the season after will not change that no matter how much I would like us to win it.
 
billyiddo said:
I don't disagree that we need to win trophies.

Now that we have built the team we have that should follow if we keep them together
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I would like us to win things because I am a fan and I love the glory days. But I don't think wining any of our domestic cups or even the Europa league will make the elite clubs suddenly stand up and take notice of us. Doing well in the league and champions league does raise our profile though.
 
Robspur12 said:
I would like us to win things because I am a fan and I love the glory days. But I don't think wining any of our domestic cups or even the Europa league will make the elite clubs suddenly stand up and take notice of us. Doing well in the league and champions league does raise our profile though.
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The original point was that winning the League Cup and Europa League and obtaining CL qualification is a more successful season than coming second in the league. I can't see many who aren't Spurs fans arguing with that I'm afraid. Anyways we aren't going to agree on this so just agree to disagree :)
 
parklane1 said:
Well you answered your own question then, winning breeds a winning mentality and (before someone comes in and mentions the likes of Wigan etc) that is because they were not strong teams, we are and we should be going all out to win whatever we can.
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OK.

First of all, we had horrible injuries early season, coupled with tired players returning from a Euros fudged up by Hodgson (the core of ours and England's team - young men too, not seasoned vets). Our first choice defense only played together less than 10 times in all competitions!!!!!!!
Champions League - whilst not incredible, we were NOT as poor as some have made out, we simply did not have our best side out for most games (due to injuries).
FA Cup - I would argue this was a crushing disappointment simply because we were better yet failed to win. It is the ONE game where I wanted more, however again, no Rose and Walker did not start.
League Cup - I honestly cannot remember what happened here as I type.
Premiership - glorious, and 86 points is usually enough to win the fudging thing.

If I had to watch the turgid garbage Utd put out, I'd go and support Wigan, Bolton, anyone!!!!!
 
thfcsteff said:
OK.

First of all, we had horrible injuries early season, coupled with tired players returning from a Euros fudged up by Hodgson (the core of ours and England's team - young men too, not seasoned vets). Our first choice defense only played together less than 10 times in all competitions!!!!!!!
Champions League - whilst not incredible, we were NOT as poor as some have made out, we simply did not have our best side out for most games (due to injuries).
FA Cup - I would argue this was a crushing disappointment simply because we were better yet failed to win. It is the ONE game where I wanted more, however again, no Rose and Walker did not start.
League Cup - I honestly cannot remember what happened here as I type.
Premiership - glorious, and 86 points is usually enough to win the fudging thing.

If I had to watch the turgid garbage Utd put out, I'd go and support Wigan, Bolton, anyone!!!!!
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Injuries cannot be an excuse. We have a good squad and our league performances and finishing position are proof. Poch rotated full backs, we did ok without Harry, the only player out long term was Lamela.

In the Fa semi Poch chose to play Trippier and Son over Walker and Davies. Don't think that was right but there you go. Only Rose was missing. The blue runts were very clinical and lucky

I don't want to defend Utd but they coped with horrendous injuries and a massive fixture pile up. It can be done.
 
thfcsteff said:
FA Cup - I would argue this was a crushing disappointment simply because we were better yet failed to win. It is the ONE game where I wanted more
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And that is why (other than lesser financial rewards and managing squad fatigue) managers of big clubs rarely treat cups as a priority. In a one off game, it is quite common for the poorer side to win. A cup competition is a series of one off games.
 
DeleHarry said:
Injuries cannot be an excuse. We have a good squad and our league performances and finishing position are proof. Poch rotated full backs, we did ok without Harry, the only player out long term was Lamela.

In the Fa semi Poch chose to play Trippier and Son over Walker and Davies. Don't think that was right but there you go. Only Rose was missing. The blue runts were very clinical and lucky

I don't want to defend Utd but they coped with horrendous injuries and a massive fixture pile up. It can be done.
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Poch prioritised the League over the cups (except the FA cup semi) that's why we had an outstanding season by our standards in the league. Mourinho's side was struggling to find any consistency in a very competitive league so he prioritised the cups. In reality that was the easier option because arguably the hardest thing to do is win in the league week in week out. Mourinho is a master of winning the all or nothing games. Now of course I would love us to win the cups because I am a fan. But even Utd, with their far greater squad depth showed it is difficult to maintain your league form, while going all out to win the cups.

You could argue, if you want trophies, that Poch got it wrong with his priorities. But tbh I believe for now, it is important for Spurs to be considered serious title contenders rather than cup winners and currently we do not have the squad depth to be both.

I think we need to get some perspective on the last 2 seasons. While finishing 2nd and 3rd in 2 seasons doesn't necessarily sound like a great achievement, it is more than achieved by Liverpool, City, United and Arsenal. It is more than achieved by any Spurs side since 63 and it is an exponential improvement on any league performance I can remember. In both the league and the cup the only side to beat us is arguably the only side who have been better than us this season, a side put together at substantially more cost. Surely there is a lot to be proud of this season and much to be excited about next season.
 
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There are some good arguments in the thread from both sides of the debate, however IF we keep failing to put any silverware in our cabinet then get prepared for some of our players to leave and go where they can. Some may deny that is the case but it will happen.

I believe that IF we do not have a trophy by the end of next season then we will see departures. ( i hope i am wrong).
 
milo said:
And that is why (other than lesser financial rewards and managing squad fatigue) managers of big clubs rarely treat cups as a priority. In a one off game, it is quite common for the poorer side to win. A cup competition is a series of one off games.
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Dont think so?

Last fifteen years FA Cup winners (most recent first): Man U,Arsenal,Arsenal,Wigan, Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Chelsea, Portsmouth, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U, Arsenal, Arsenal.

All the big boys have won it in recent years except us.....
 
harr1984 said:
Dont think so?

Last fifteen years FA Cup winners (most recent first): Man U,Arsenal,Arsenal,Wigan, Chelsea, Emirates Marketing Project, Chelsea, Chelsea, Portsmouth, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Man U, Arsenal, Arsenal.

All the big boys have won it in recent years except us.....
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Compared to winning the league I'm sure Milo means - Leicester won the league last season and it was heralded as a miracle, them winning the league cup wouldn't even get so much as a seconds thought
 
billyiddo said:
Compared to winning the league I'm sure Milo means - Leicester won the league last season and it was heralded as a miracle, them winning the league cup wouldn't even get so much as a seconds thought
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Well theres hardly a difference is there? Two winners of FA Cup in last fifteen years of those outside top 4 vs one winner of league in last 15.

The bigger point is all the big teams have won it recently because that's what big teams do win trophies. I honestly cant believe there's even a debate about this.....
 
harr1984 said:
Well theres hardly a difference is there? Two winners of FA Cup in last fifteen years of those outside top 4 vs one winner of league in last 15.

The bigger point is all the big teams have won it recently because that's what big teams do win trophies. I honestly cant believe there's even a debate about this.....
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Why are you only looking at the Fa Cup?

I think people are arguing different points, that's why there us a debate
 
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