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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

I hope there is someone in Poch's circle who has the ability to question him or even to take him to task a little if necessary.

As i said in another thread he's had almost 3yrs of the British press with their tongue up his ass. Even fans of other clubs seem to love him and many want him at their club.

It would take a remarkable human being to be able to handle that without maybe losing a little focus and starting to believe in your own hype.

Fingers crossed.
 
Injuries permitting, we will win the title next season. A settled side, with high quality additions, who will have raised their expectations - and who will have been raised out of their comfort zone. Of course anything is possible but Poch is hungry to succeed, and with kane, Ali and Dembele, we WILL succeed.
I would have agreed with that anytime over the last couple of weeks.

Now, im not so sure.
 
Some great points raised here...I wonder. Last season, Poch clearly realized early-doors that Kaboul/Crapoue/Ade/Lennon/Paulinho were not part of his vision. The first three were dressing power houses. He allowed the squad to pick one as skipper, and then watched us struggle with them until they basically phuqued themselves in the eyes of their peers. This season, the way he ended up losing Alli and then Dembele, I wonder if once he knew group stage CL football was locked up, he decided to take the same general route i.e. here you are, shaft yourself and you will be gone this summer??? Poch might be the first manger who cares about the club enough to think it before himself, and the some very ugly shirt-term steps to address and correct bigger issues...

That could be it, but that doesn't fully explain why he continued to play Mason (who's clearly injured, and has been putting off getting surgery for that injury, apparently) in that scenario - he's obviously an atrocious, game-destroying liability at this point, but that's not wholly his fault at all given his fitness issue and rustiness in general. Isn't it unfair on a player who, for all his faults (and, on this evidence, he has many) gives his all for you on the pitch every time? You could perhaps see it as watching how *none* of the other players stood up to protect Mason and give him easier options to ease him through games and drawing conclusions from that...but those would be grim conclusions indeed, because adopting that line of thought leads to the realisation that no one in the team made things any easier for Mason during his time of struggle. Doesn't say a lot for team unity when the chips are down, and how can you rectify the entire team shafting themselves in that manner?
 
All this optimism about next season makes me nervous.

100%.

We need to keep our feet on the ground. We've just finished the season with 70 points. A good total, but one that in a 'normal' season would probably see us finishing 5th, which is pretty much where you'd expect us to be at this stage of Poch's grand plan.

There are many, many positives to take from this season. Our fantastic defensive record, break through of so many players, some of the great football we played. There is loads to say that Poch may go on to win loads with us and this team shows massive potential, but we as fans can unravel all of that if we get on the team/Poch's back if the first few games of next season aren't great or if at Xmas we are sitting 5th/6th because 'this time last year we were challenging for the title'.

We need to think long term here. It's been a fantastic season, but also a very very strange one in the grand scheme of the league.

I would be very surprised (and happy) if we are in with a shout of winning the league with 10 games to go next season.
 
Woah woah woah, I think we need a bit of perspective here.

Our first 11 - is very good.

Our squad as a whole doesn't have the required depth.

We lost two key first team players for our end of season run in, and we have no options and our performances suffer.

The future is bright for us and no way does this compare to lasagnegate or mind the gap, we still qualified for the champions league.

The silver lining of the goons finishing second is that Arsene Wenger will likely stay, Giroud is seen as a first choice striker, whereas we are evolving as a team.

We still have lots of learning to do mentality wise and need to strengthen our squad as a whole desperately.

Champions league football will help us attract these players - onwards on upwards.
 
Woah woah woah, I think we need a bit of perspective here.

Our first 11 - is very good.

Our squad as a whole doesn't have the required depth.

We lost two key first team players for our end of season run in, and we have no options and our performances suffer.

The future is bright for us and no way does this compare to lasagnegate or mind the gap, we still qualified for the champions league.

The silver lining of the goons finishing second is that Arsene Wenger will likely stay, Giroud is seen as a first choice striker, whereas we are evolving as a team.

We still have lots of learning to do mentality wise and need to strengthen our squad as a whole desperately.

Champions league football will help us attract these players - onwards on upwards.

Very much agree but remember the last time we qualified for the CL? City and the rest just left us standing during the summer window, I admit there is a difference in that we have done so automatically but it's evident that all the financial big guns are gonna try out spend us at every opportunity.

Our only real hope is the academy, if we can get the balance right between spending and the academy then we will go places. Genuinely struggling to think how we can improve the first team, just so good on its day and hasn't played for three weeks now.
 
Pochettino's teams always fall away?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...senal---but-we-should-not-be-surprised-maur/?

What do we think to this? is the fast pressing style always going to take it's toll towards the end of the season?
Just a quick look, but looks like gonads to me. A one point or less swing over 15 points is hardly a collapse.
Narrative, ignore the press and sky. They're fixating on us to spare the top fours blushes. City scrape a draw for top 4, Arsenal finish way behind Leicester, Man U miss out on CL and Chelsea would need a telescope to see Leicester.
Where's the inquest for these? Our season as a whole has been a success, yes criticism is due for some aspects, but let's not get distracted from the truth by junk like this.
 
To put things into perspective a little, it so happens we have lost out one way or another to the four most in-form teams in the PL over our last six games:

Leicester WDWDWD
Arsenal DWDWDW
Southampton WDWWWW
Saudi Sportswashing Machine WDDWDW (after having lost six of their previous seven and drawn the other)
Tottenham WWDDLL

On top of that last season's champions Chelsea needed to play like demons just to salvage a draw against us.

So yes, still a disastrous end to the season but looking at the form of our rivals maybe helps take the edge off it a little.
 
I think we need to ask if the Pochettino method has reached a peak:

We have had a late season dip ala Beilsa as i always feared we could.

Is it fair to assume that the double-training/high energy method has caught up with us?

After a while, without variation in my mind this will be countered by the managers who will be tacticaly astute to let us run out of puff during a match before goig in for the late kill (Rafa in my mind executed this PERFECTLY yesterday). Not to mention those who will have better players (skill/guile after a while will always trump physical stamina imo).

At the moment many of the players will see that the hard running/high energy has elevated them into a CL campaign, BUT being motivated to do it again will likely need us to fish 2nd and/or win a trophy next year. If not, i fear it will end in tears :-(

To extend the faith in him by the players long-term imo Poch needs to:

- vary his hard training regime to lead to less burn-out in the latter parts of the season (no-one can tell me that we aren't playing more lethargic these last few weeks; yes we're missing Alli and Dembele but we didn't have to play or try to play full energy/press to get a point in our last two games; Chelski we started wilting in the second half as well imo)
- vary the method/philosophy to enable an older/maturer player with experience who has 'done it' to be integrated into the squad (they are footballers and our aim is to play football, NOT just be old-style Soviet athletes)
- choose our moments in the season to go high-energy and press; my preference would be to do this in the first 4/5 months and then sit deeper and look to first keep clean sheets and try and win scrappy 1-0/2-0 with some counter-attack for about 3 months like Leicester this season and many of Fergie's Manure teams in the past before bringing back the high press in the last 6-8 weeks to finish strongly.

Thoughts?
 
What you find with a high pressing game is that if their is a carrot at the end of the stick i.e league title in our case,the hunger is there with the players to do it, everyone has to give 100% because their is an end result ,3 points and a title maybe but if their is no incentive then performance level will drop and we start dropping points, it didn't help that other sides kept losing and we were always being kept in the top 4 to give us kick up the arse when needed if our performance levels dropped . We've been second for at least 6 weeks chasing leicester... playing after them for two months or so with no other side around us to not to give us a breather but to take the focus off us as such,when leicester beat swansea and we drew with WBA it seems like the air was left out of the balloon in the side.

We're not the first side to implode like we've done over the last few weeks ,a high pressing game suits when their is something to play for but when their isn't you'll get four/five/six players not putting a shift in,like Poch side its a mental thing as we are one of the fittest sides in the premiership.We're one of the youngest sides in the league too and hopefully it be a learning curve for most of them.....well the ones who are left!!
 
I think we need to ask if the Pochettino method has reached a peak:

We have had a late season dip ala Beilsa as i always feared we could.

Is it fair to assume that the double-training/high energy method has caught up with us?

After a while, without variation in my mind this will be countered by the managers who will be tacticaly astute to let us run out of puff during a match before goig in for the late kill (Rafa in my mind executed this PERFECTLY yesterday). Not to mention those who will have better players (skill/guile after a while will always trump physical stamina imo).

At the moment many of the players will see that the hard running/high energy has elevated them into a CL campaign, BUT being motivated to do it again will likely need us to fish 2nd and/or win a trophy next year. If not, i fear it will end in tears :-(

To extend the faith in him by the players long-term imo Poch needs to:

- vary his hard training regime to lead to less burn-out in the latter parts of the season (no-one can tell me that we aren't playing more lethargic these last few weeks; yes we're missing Alli and Dembele but we didn't have to play or try to play full energy/press to get a point in our last two games; Chelski we started wilting in the second half as well imo)
- vary the method/philosophy to enable an older/maturer player with experience who has 'done it' to be integrated into the squad (they are footballers and our aim is to play football, NOT just be old-style Soviet athletes)
- choose our moments in the season to go high-energy and press; my preference would be to do this in the first 4/5 months and then sit deeper and look to first keep clean sheets and try and win scrappy 1-0/2-0 with some counter-attack for about 3 months like Leicester this season and many of Fergie's Manure teams in the past before bringing back the high press in the last 6-8 weeks to finish strongly.

Thoughts?

Fair question but don't agree. Otherwise, at which points specifically did we run out of puff? We went to Stoke, played them off the park and looked like by far the best team in the country at that point. We then have a weeks break and look good if not clinical against West Brom. But as soon as WBA score, we lose our heads. At Chelsea, we look really good and go two up but lose our heads when they score. Against Southampton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine we don't have the same intensity but I agree with Poch, it's mental.

A small part of me can sympathise with the current group of players, in that they've run hard all season but Leicester just did not give them one tiny slip to capitalise on, and they haven't got their rewards. Hence them letting out their frustration at Chelsea. So yeah, to a very small extent, understandable. But as Poch says, to be real winners means retaining focus and getting the job done. The players let themselves down, badly.

I think every failure or mistake that the club has made over the last decade has gotten us to this point, it's been a slog but every time we do learn from it. We needed someone tactically better than Jol, and went for Ramos. We then needed someone more suited to England than him and got Harry. We then needed someone better tactically and that would improve players, going for AVB. He was almost a great hire but for the fact he didn't utilise the youth academy. So we get Poch, who knows the league, is strong tactically, has a system and a strategy, will use the youth, and has seen us primed for good things. Every failure, lasagne, the Fulop horror show, the Harry flirting with England collapse, Chelsea winning the CL, all lead us to improve upon what we had and got us to this point.

And I hope this experience represents another failure that we sincerely learn from. There are still bad characters in the squad we need to get out. There are a few too many nice boys that are happy if we seem to be doing slightly above expectations, as opposed to wanting to win at all costs. We need more Diers. Bentaleb was reportedly a winner when he wasn't injured. There's a chance Vertonghen and Eriksen, despite being some of the most talented players around in their positions, lack the mentalities to be true winners and that is why they are here rather than a club that's traditionally been higher.

I love how Poch said 'this gives me good information for the summer' in a very cool, calm, collected manner. The bad eggs will be out and Levy won't be keeping them around. He could see the rot setting in over the last few weeks hence the talk of mentality. I think Rose, Dier, Alli, Dembele, Lamela and Kane can hold their heads high and say they acted like champions. I think guys like Davies, Trippier and Wimmer were a credit to the team and filled their roles admirably when called upon. They knew their roles, they were happy to fight for their places and importantly, were ready when called upon. I think guys like Verts, sadly Toby, Walker and Eriksen didn't demonstrate the winners mentality when it was needed the most. Guys like Mason and Carroll didn't step up when given the chance and we may have outgrown them, while Son could have been better (but injuries, settling in etc means he deserves another chance).

Verts could be a shock exit I reckon, a real wake up call to the squad. Wouldn't be surprised to see Eriksen let go either while Walker and Toby need to show they can keep their heads when the pressure is on (maybe we're seeing why Atletico let Toby go...).

Hopefully we learn from this and improve yet again. Happily I think we've got the guy to make it happen. I agree with Steff, he thinks long term for the clubs benefit and not short term for his own. He'd rather let the players hang themselves and do themselves out of a place even if it means painful and embarrassing results in the short term. Credit to the man.
 
Fair question but don't agree. Otherwise, at which points specifically did we run out of puff? We went to Stoke, played them off the park and looked like by far the best team in the country at that point. We then have a weeks break and look good if not clinical against West Brom. But as soon as WBA score, we lose our heads. At Chelsea, we look really good and go two up but lose our heads when they score. Against Southampton and Saudi Sportswashing Machine we don't have the same intensity but I agree with Poch, it's mental.

A small part of me can sympathise with the current group of players, in that they've run hard all season but Leicester just did not give them one tiny slip to capitalise on, and they haven't got their rewards. Hence them letting out their frustration at Chelsea. So yeah, to a very small extent, understandable. But as Poch says, to be real winners means retaining focus and getting the job done. The players let themselves down, badly.

I think every failure or mistake that the club has made over the last decade has gotten us to this point, it's been a slog but every time we do learn from it. We needed someone tactically better than Jol, and went for Ramos. We then needed someone more suited to England than him and got Harry. We then needed someone better tactically and that would improve players, going for AVB. He was almost a great hire but for the fact he didn't utilise the youth academy. So we get Poch, who knows the league, is strong tactically, has a system and a strategy, will use the youth, and has seen us primed for good things. Every failure, lasagne, the Fulop horror show, the Harry flirting with England collapse, Chelsea winning the CL, all lead us to improve upon what we had and got us to this point.

And I hope this experience represents another failure that we sincerely learn from. There are still bad characters in the squad we need to get out. There are a few too many nice boys that are happy if we seem to be doing slightly above expectations, as opposed to wanting to win at all costs. We need more Diers. Bentaleb was reportedly a winner when he wasn't injured. There's a chance Vertonghen and Eriksen, despite being some of the most talented players around in their positions, lack the mentalities to be true winners and that is why they are here rather than a club that's traditionally been higher.

I love how Poch said 'this gives me good information for the summer' in a very cool, calm, collected manner. The bad eggs will be out and Levy won't be keeping them around. He could see the rot setting in over the last few weeks hence the talk of mentality. I think Rose, Dier, Alli, Dembele, Lamela and Kane can hold their heads high and say they acted like champions. I think guys like Davies, Trippier and Wimmer were a credit to the team and filled their roles admirably when called upon. They knew their roles, they were happy to fight for their places and importantly, were ready when called upon. I think guys like Verts, sadly Toby, Walker and Eriksen didn't demonstrate the winners mentality when it was needed the most. Guys like Mason and Carroll didn't step up when given the chance and we may have outgrown them, while Son could have been better (but injuries, settling in etc means he deserves another chance).

Verts could be a shock exit I reckon, a real wake up call to the squad. Wouldn't be surprised to see Eriksen let go either while Walker and Toby need to show they can keep their heads when the pressure is on (maybe we're seeing why Atletico let Toby go...).

Hopefully we learn from this and improve yet again. Happily I think we've got the guy to make it happen. I agree with Steff, he thinks long term for the clubs benefit and not short term for his own. He'd rather let the players hang themselves and do themselves out of a place even if it means painful and embarrassing results in the short term. Credit to the man.

Nice discussion points;
But who exactly are these 'bad characters' you refer to?
How exactly does a player demonstrate "the winners mentality"? Why do you say Verts and Eriksen didn't whilst Kane, Rose and Lamela did? I'm curious as to how you differentiate between the separate groups? Are you doing so using 'effrt' seen on the pitch?
Lastly, and i'm not trying to be deliberately controversial here: at what point is a failure to do with players 'lacking winning mentalities' and when is a failure not that but a manager 'lacking a winning mentality'? Where does blame for incorrect/inflexible/poor tactics take higher placement to players 'attitudes'?
 
Nice discussion points;
But who exactly are these 'bad characters' you refer to?
How exactly does a player demonstrate "the winners mentality"? Why do you say Verts and Eriksen didn't whilst Kane, Rose and Lamela did? I'm curious as to how you differentiate between the separate groups? Are you doing so using 'effrt' seen on the pitch?
Lastly, and i'm not trying to be deliberately controversial here: at what point is a failure to do with players 'lacking winning mentalities' and when is a failure not that but a manager 'lacking a winning mentality'? Where does blame for incorrect/inflexible/poor tactics take higher placement to players 'attitudes'?

When I say bad characters, I just mean players that don't act like winners. And the way I see that is by taking responsibility on the pitch, and not making stupid mistakes because the pressure is now on, and because we are now in the business end of the season.

Lamela for example, noticeably stepped up when the league title was in sight. He'd always been a hard runner throughout the season, but you could see in the last few weeks, he believed. When other players didn't want the ball, he did, he tried to make something happen.

Toby, on the other hand has made a number of errors in the last few weeks. Poor decision making. Stepping up when he should be dropping back, not being tight to obvious danger players, not clearing the lines when he should. Very noticeably performance dropped at the business end of the season. A shame because he was such a rock for most of it.

And then I look at players like Dier and Alli (and actually, Bentaleb. Despite him being pretty terrible this season as he was never able to pick up a run of form when he did get on the pitch). They have a bit of a nasty streak in them. Rose has it too. Nice boys off the pitch I'm sure but on it, you can tell that for the next 95 minutes, they hate the opposition. And they hate the opposition so much that they aren't going to let something as stupid and irrelevant as 'pressure' allow them to stop giving the absolute best version of themselves for the duration of the match. But I look at Walker, who despite being really talented looks a bit ponderous, like he's control is always waiting to let him down, like he's going to have a bad reaction should things not go his way (as his Twitter outburst proved a couple of years ago).

So I'm seperating by performance level noticeably dropping in the business end alongside what we can make out of a player's character. It transparently tinkles Dier off when he loses, or when Spurs get called soft, because he knows he isn't. I'm sure it hurts someone like Eriksen, but I also get the sense that he's quite a measured guy and probably isn't totally consumed by winning, like it's an obsession. We can't have a team of nasty bastards, but I don't think we can continue to rely on players that are happy with the bear minimum in key positions.

And look at Leicester. Winners every single one of them. Vardy. Drinkwater. Morgan. Huth. They weren't going to let pressure get in the way because they thought they fully deserved it. I'm sure they had a class clown in Fuchs, a maverick like Mahrez and Albrighton who I assume is quite a nice chap in the Ryan Mason mould, but they had enough winners in the team that meant that when the pressure was on, they looked more like champions than ever. The opposite happened with us.

And I don't think it was tactics. The tactics got us to where we were, and I think Poch is the closest to a manager with a winning mentality that we'd had in my Spurs supporting life. Watch his interview again. It transparently tinkles him off, but he doesn't get overly emotional like Sherwood after the 4-0 Chelsea loss (although I agreed with Sherwood at the time!). Poch is tinkled off but very calmly says he's got good information about what decisions to make in the summer. He's given the players the chance to prove themselves to him, and some of them have let themselves down. He's disappointed, he probably likes a lot of them on a personal level, but there won't be any excuse for mental weakness. They will be gone.

I should also say, we scored the most, conceded the least, had the best shots for and against statistics. The system was working very well, but the amount of games we absolutely dominated but didn't win was ridiculous and again that lies with the players IMO. Everton home and away. Arsenal away. We absolutely played them off the park but didn't kill them off, quite bizarrely so in fact given our dominance.
 
Starts and finishes. Both have have been our weaknesses for years and this season has been no exception, it's really cost us.

From September 13th (Sunderland away) til 18th April (Stoke away) in the our form was:

P30 W19 D8 L3 F61 A21 GD 40+ PTS 65
  • 2.16 points per games
  • 2.03 goals per game
  • 0.7 goals conceded per game
To put that into context with that form you'd finish the season on 82 points, Leicester finished on 81.

On top of that we saw wins by a three or more goal margin on 9 occasions:
  • 4-1 Emirates Marketing Project (H)
  • 5-1 Bournemouth (A)
  • 3-0 Norwich City (H)
  • 4-1 West Ham (H)
  • 4-1 Sunderland (H)
  • 3-0 Norwich City (A)
  • 3-0 Bournemouth (H)
  • 3-0 Manchester United (H)
  • 4-0 Stoke City (A)
Along with 12 clean sheets.

Admittedly it's all numbers and certain if buts and maybes, but if we can get that form across the whole season I really can't see why we can't win the title and achieve at least 85 points.
 
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