Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[glasgowspur]

That's fair, but how many people think that way?

As an alternative, your points could equally be seen as -

1) new stadium - more adaptation required, another settling in period after Wembley
2) Squad investment - same old faces still here, not enough new ones bought in, some of the ones here want to leave anyway
3) Squad are at peak age - which is why motivational tactics that work for young kids don't work for them, and they're getting injuries from a gruelling training regime they're too old for
4) Limited summer internationals - more rustiness to shake off
5) So close in the CL - yes, and we couldn't get over the line. Will we ever get there again? We're not Liverpool, we don't have their self-belief or their managerial and tactical nous and know-how. We can't beat the odds like they did.
6) Would be nice to leave with a trophy - yes, but it's ephemeral, because where they're going, they will win trophies anyway, be it Ajax or Madrid.

People tend to think negatively - it's a scientific fact that our brains remember negative experiences instantly, but positive experiences need to be repeated 6 or 7 times before they sink in. Likewise for positive thinking.
I think the players have tried gamely, but they're now in a rut in terms of negative thinking. And Poch needs to win something to truly be able to change that, or it will just keep getting bigger every season.

Imagine if he goes ten seasons without winning a single damn thing - not a community shield, not an Intertoto Cup, zero, nilch, absolutely nada. It's certainly possible - we're in Year Six with one trophy left in the season (FA Cup) to aim for. In fact, if you look at his whole career (Espanyol and Southampton included), we're probably going to cross the ten-year mark this year.

Would even the U18s believe him if he came out and told them to run themselves into the ground to win things?

Poch needs to win something. It's the only way out of this rut, and the only way he will get the players to believe that pushing themselves to the edge is worth it.

That's the thing isn't it, the human mind is a funny thing.
If you're happy at your work you'd look at my list and go yeah, a little push and all this hard will have been worth it.
Unhappy for whatever reason you look at your list and go sod that I'm off.

Understand eriksen reasoning for leaving, but I don't with Toby or rose.

As for poch not winning anything I don't but that one, he's managed three clubs not renowned for winning trophies and in countries where the trophies seldom go outside 3 or 4 clubs

 

[glasgowspur]

you’re right about the belief part but they have a better keeper by some distance who doesn’t make serial blunders at critical moments and their defence is easily better than ours. Vertonghen is the only defender who would even be in with a sniff of their starting lineup.

individually you could argue our front line is comparable with theirs and it is but I do believe their front three work better as a unit than ours, they’re on the same wavelength at most times.

their midfield is distinctly average for a top team.

Their manager is better than ours also which counts for a lot.

What annoys me is they are so far ahead of us in terms of picking up points, meteorology but the squad isn’t much better than ours. The fact that we have allowed the gap to become so big is what frustrates me.

Their keeper was very lucky to get with a blunder as bad as Hugo's last week.
They shipped three goals against Salzburg, but for a howler from the Sheffield keeper they would have dropped points last weekend, Sheffield could have win that game.
They have issues, they aren't being exposed ATM. A bit like us up to a year ago.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

you’re right about the belief part but they have a better keeper by some distance who doesn’t make serial blunders at critical moments and their defence is easily better than ours. Vertonghen is the only defender who would even be in with a sniff of their starting lineup.

individually you could argue our front line is comparable with theirs and it is but I do believe their front three work better as a unit than ours, they’re on the same wavelength at most times.

their midfield is distinctly average for a top team.

Their manager is better than ours also which counts for a lot.

What annoys me is they are so far ahead of us in terms of picking up points, meteorology but the squad isn’t much better than ours. The fact that we have allowed the gap to become so big is what frustrates me.

They have Adrian in goal and are still winning

In football confidence breeds confidence

And one thing manages do when trying to get that confidence back stick with a team and system they know works.

Chelsea can’t buy a clean sheet but their winning because their have that confidence and swagger that we have lost. Their manager isn’t proven on ANY level and their team aren’t generally but the6 look a very good side
Arsenal ... well their playing poorly and getting results but again those results give them belief

We’re really devoid of belief and confidence across the whole club (fans and players)

 

[DubaiSpur]

That's the thing isn't it, the human mind is a funny thing.
If you're happy at your work you'd look at my list and go yeah, a little push and all this hard will have been worth it.
Unhappy for whatever reason you look at your list and go sod that I'm off.

Understand eriksen reasoning for leaving, but I don't with Toby or rose.

As for poch not winning anything I don't but that one, he's managed three clubs not renowned for winning trophies and in countries where the trophies seldom go outside 3 or 4 clubs

The thing is, thinking negatively also works out for us in many ways, because it's one of the principal methods of teaching us lessons - as kids and adults. Give a kid candy for not touching a hot object, it won't work, because he'll touch it anyway. If he touches it and hurts himself, it'll teach him not to do it in the future.

I guess it's an evolutionary thing.

As for Poch not winning anything, the thing is, it doesn't matter what clubs he's been at.

What do we want to be as a club? One 'not renowned for winning trophies', or something greater? The stadium, training ground et al all point to ambitions far beyond being an also-ran, and the squad we have likewise.

But then, that is contrasted with the lack of success of our manager, who has fewer trophies than many of his own players.

It's an odd thing, but the evolution of the club under Poch has left us in a situation where, regardless of circumstances, we need a manager who knows how to win things.

That manager can be Poch, but he has to evolve into a better coach who can cross that finish line. Otherwise, this problem will only grow as we continue to go trophyless in the coming years, until his authority seriously evaporates at some point.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Their keeper was very lucky to get with a blunder as bad as Hugo's last week.
They shipped three goals against Salzburg, but for a howler from the Sheffield keeper they would have dropped points last weekend, Sheffield could have win that game.
They have issues, they aren't being exposed ATM. A bit like us up to a year ago.

They are not as solid as last season and they have been very fortunate already to win some of their games.

Lloris has made numerous high profile blunders, far more than Alison.

the way I see it; Alison > Lloris. Robertson > any of our left backs. TAA > Aurier. Van Dijk > Toby. Vertonghen > Matip.

that’s 80% of their backline I see as superior to us.

 

[Jurgen the German]

They have Adrian in goal and are still winning

In football confidence breeds confidence

And one thing manages do when trying to get that confidence back stick with a team and system they know works.

Chelsea can’t buy a clean sheet but their winning because their have that confidence and swagger that we have lost. Their manager isn’t proven on ANY level and their team aren’t generally but the6 look a very good side
Arsenal ... well their playing poorly and getting results but again those results give them belief

We’re really devoid of belief and confidence across the whole club (fans and players)

I am not disagreeing about the confidence, I just don’t agree that “they are not any better than us except belief”. They are superior in goal, right back, left back and one of the CB’s. Their midfield is average but their front three is on a par with ours at worst. They have two players who scored 20 goals last season. Mane would walk into our team IMO. Firmino is a little overrated IMO but he does an important job linking up the attack for them. And as much as I detest Salah, you can’t knock his ability.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I am not disagreeing about the confidence, I just don’t agree that “they are not any better than us except belief”. They are superior in goal, right back, left back and one of the CB’s. Their midfield is average but their front three is on a par with ours at worst. They have two players who scored 20 goals last season. Mane would walk into our team IMO. Firmino is a little overrated IMO but he does an important job linking up the attack for them. And as much as I detest Ham Salad, you can’t knock his ability.

Yeah I can’t argue that their better than us in more areas
But that belief is huge
Their fans and the cult of pool drives a belief that they will win things
They almost got that penalty yesterday because the believe it’s their right

Right now we can’t even believe tomorrow’s Monday

 

[Jurgen the German]

Yeah I can’t argue that their better than us in more areas
But that belief is huge
Their fans and the cult of pool drives a belief that they will win things
They almost got that penalty yesterday because the believe it’s their right

Right now we can’t even believe tomorrow’s Monday

They definitely have an arrogance/sense of entitlement/belief/delusion that they are the best but you can’t deny their success, just look at their record in the champions league. Wenger made a comment semi recently saying that when he was a a manager, the one team he didn’t want to play in the champions league is Liverpool at Anfield. They are serial winners. Whereas we have virtually decades of underachieving and falling short at critical moments and not getting over the line. I think that definitely counts for something no matter how many fans claim players don’t care about a club’s history. Don’t ask me how Poch reverses that. The only answer I can think of is money and a LOT of it.

they also have a unity and togetherness that I am jealous of. Probably stems from Hillsborough.

 

[scaramanga]

They definitely have an arrogance/sense of entitlement/belief/delusion that they are the best but you can’t deny their success, just look at their record in the champions league. Wenger made a comment semi recently saying that when he was a a manager, the one team he didn’t want to play in the champions league is Liverpool at Anfield. They are serial winners. Whereas we have virtually decades of underachieving and falling short at critical moments and not getting over the line. I think that definitely counts for something no matter how many fans claim players don’t care about a club’s history. Don’t ask me how Poch reverses that. The only answer I can think of is money and a LOT of it.

they also have a unity and togetherness that I am jealous of. Probably stems from Hillsborough.

Are you advocating we kill some of our fans in order to improve?

If so, can I start the list?

 

[alekaras]

I do wonder if the egg Poch laid in the CL final has damaged the confidence in him from the squad beyond repair.

We were not at all prepared for that game, or any since, so it seems.

Did he lay an egg, though? Did he forget to prepare the team assuming we would be down 1-0 in the first minute? Against a Liverpool side that was in the form of their lives and leading by a goal from the first minute, not only were we not played off the park, we were marginally the better side. Did you expect we would smash them?

Poch made one mistake, leaving Moura off for Kane. That was it. And that was a call that is very difficult to make for any manager.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They definitely have an arrogance/sense of entitlement/belief/delusion that they are the best but you can’t deny their success, just look at their record in the champions league. Wenger made a comment semi recently saying that when he was a a manager, the one team he didn’t want to play in the champions league is Liverpool at Anfield. They are serial winners. Whereas we have virtually decades of underachieving and falling short at critical moments and not getting over the line. I think that definitely counts for something no matter how many fans claim players don’t care about a club’s history. Don’t ask me how Poch reverses that. The only answer I can think of is money and a LOT of it.

they also have a unity and togetherness that I am jealous of. Probably stems from Hillsborough.

Their unity comes from being victims ... they collectively believe it’s never their fault
They also now believe their a country in their own right (we’ll come do)
Their a weird bunch but their faith in their team is second to none

 

[Baleforce]

Did he lay an egg, though? Did he forget to prepare the team assuming we would be down 1-0 in the first minute? Against a Liverpool side that was in the form of their lives and leading by a goal from the first minute, not only were we not played off the park, we were marginally the better side. Did you expect we would smash them?

Poch made one mistake, leaving Moura off for Kane. That was it. And that was a call that is very difficult to make for any manager.

The dippers have been gifted a penalty in every game since the 50’s. That should have been planned for.

Yes, that’s exactly what I expected.

 

[glasgowspur]

Are you advocating we kill some of our fans in order to improve?

If so, can I start the list?

Start it, you're top of it!

 

[Raziel]

The thing is, thinking negatively also works out for us in many ways, because it's one of the principal methods of teaching us lessons - as kids and adults. Give a kid candy for not touching a hot object, it won't work, because he'll touch it anyway. If he touches it and hurts himself, it'll teach him not to do it in the future.

I guess it's an evolutionary thing.

As for Poch not winning anything, the thing is, it doesn't matter what clubs he's been at.

What do we want to be as a club? One 'not renowned for winning trophies', or something greater? The stadium, training ground et al all point to ambitions far beyond being an also-ran, and the squad we have likewise.

But then, that is contrasted with the lack of success of our manager, who has fewer trophies than many of his own players.

It's an odd thing, but the evolution of the club under Poch has left us in a situation where, regardless of circumstances, we need a manager who knows how to win things.

That manager can be Poch, but he has to evolve into a better coach who can cross that finish line. Otherwise, this problem will only grow as we continue to go trophyless in the coming years, until his authority seriously evaporates at some point.

I agree with this, hence I think we need to give up on "the project" type view, the club doesn't need another 3-4 years of almost.

We need a serial winning manager, who is something more than a motivator to come in, tell the players they are going to win something and make it happened (backed with some funds). Levy tends to alternate between motivators and tacticians anyway (BMJ - Ramos - Harry - AVB - Poch).

Still continue to be genuinely confused by people who think Poch can turn it around, or even crazier we should change lots of players until we get another set of players that will run themselves into the ground for him. Lets be clear

- We are good enough by just playing basic football to beat most sides, and we are not
- Poch has consistently failed in last two years to get enough out of when of the best front lines in world football. Problem with losing Saturday was not conceding 3 (bad) but our front line failing to score against that.
- Easy to talk about the improvements of early players, but lately? has Winks, Dele, Kane, Eriksen, Lamela, Dier, Aurier really improved in last 2+ years?
- Tactics and team selection has got bizarre (tell tale sign of a manager at end of tenure)
- No matter how expensive people think firing Poch is (and I guarantee Levy has performance break clauses in there), it's cheaper than two or three players being changed.
- Poch is the guy who didn't take players last summer, the guy who was willing to take Dybala before a RB.

My view is we have a season and a half with the core of this squad if we get a new manager in now, we might be able to make something of it, if we stumble to the end of season, we will have a clear out and nothing to show for it.

 

[scaramanga]

Start it, you're top of it!

 

[glasgowspur]

They are not as solid as last season and they have been very fortunate already to win some of their games.

Lloris has made numerous high profile blunders, far more than Alison.

the way I see it; Alison > Lloris. Robertson > any of our left backs. TAA > Aurier. Van Dijk > Toby. Vertonghen > Matip.

that’s 80% of their backline I see as superior to us.

Liverpool and us are a strange/interesting comparison over the last 7 or 8 years. Huge similarities and sliding doors moments.

Reliant on one player, bale v the toothy one.
So close the title only to fall short, slippy g and Leicester.
New manager lauded but not being able to get over the line. Klopp has now busted that obviously, but sliding door.
Hugely influential refs call in CL final defeat.

How we react to the set backs, we shrink, they put on another layer of grievance and come back.

Vvd is good but he's overhyped imho. He's no better than Jan was at that age.
Their full backs are different class and will get better. They are already way better than rose and walker ever were.
I don't think there's much between the keepers tbh.
The biggest difference outside the FBs is they are solid in the middle. But we've lost wanyama, dier and the moose.
Take their equivalents our and see how they get on.

 

[braineclipse]

No excuses for Pochettino. The squad seemed good enough when we were in the title race early in 2019.

There are some mitigating factors, but far from enough to explain away what is now an extended run of poor form and a start to the new season that is completely unacceptable.

He looks lost at the moment. Tactics, motivation, player development.

The more I think about the more difficult this task looks. It will be one of his greatest achievements imo if he can turn this around.

The question is how long should he be given. I'm not at my breaking point yet, but I have no good answer beyond that. I'm happy it's Levy sitting with that final call.

 

[Raziel]

No excuses for Pochettino. The squad seemed good enough when we were in the title race early in 2019.

There are some mitigating factors, but far from enough to explain away what is now an extended run of poor form and a start to the new season that is completely unacceptable.

He looks lost at the moment. Tactics, motivation, player development.

The more I think about the more difficult this task looks. It will be one of his greatest achievements imo if he can turn this around.

The question is how long should he be given. I'm not at my breaking point yet, but I have no good answer beyond that. I'm happy it's Levy sitting with that final call.

The question should be, is there any indication that he can turn it around?

And there is another side that only Levy has privy to, would any of the "want away" players stay if the manager was someone else?

 

[braineclipse]

The question should be, is there any indication that he can turn it around?

And there is another side that only Levy has privy to, would any of the "want away" players stay if the manager was someone else?

I agree, but it's a very difficult question to answer.

A novel situation for Pochettino. He ended on a low with Espanyol, but that was in entirely different circumstances. He's never been in a job this long, he's never worked with players with this experience, he's never had a squad with so many players at ages where they should be at the peaks of their careers.

There needs to be positive signs. Like the Palace game and the second half against Southampton, but there needs to be a lot more of them. I think you're spot on about knowing about what the players want. Not just the players that quite obviously want away, but the players we need to remain committed for the future.

 

[Raziel]

I agree, but it's a very difficult question to answer.

A novel situation for Pochettino. He ended on a low with Espanyol, but that was in entirely different circumstances. He's never been in a job this long, he's never worked with players with this experience, he's never had a squad with so many players at ages where they should be at the peaks of their careers.

There needs to be positive signs. Like the Palace game and the second half against Southampton, but there needs to be a lot more of them. I think you're spot on about knowing about what the players want. Not just the players that quite obviously want away, but the players we need to remain committed for the future.

Thing is, I don't think Poch has "lost the dressing room" or anything like that, I just think the players have lost a little bit of motivation and belief.

It's a cliché, but managers have a lifecycle (3-5 years in current game seems about it), and Poch has all the signs of a manager at the end, the surliness, the weird selections/tactics, the stubbornness, the inability to get best of players.

Honestly I think for Poch the choice is simple, walk now and be remembered well, reputation intact and likely well placed for a big job. Stick around and if the results deteriorate further risk reputation and future jobs.