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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

I agree the sub seemed unwarranted and made even less sense as the game played out the way it did. That's probably based on our perception watching the game and recent Wanyama performances.

That said he does have all the data to hand. He has stats & videos immediately available on the touchline.
With Sissoko on a yellow perhaps a change was warranted. What if the stats from training showed that all of Wanyama/Dier/Skipp are a bit short of first-team fitness but perhaps Wanyama is ahead of the others? Logically the right sub to make becomes to bring Wanyama on? I can only think he's making dispassionate decisions which, on paper are correct. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

I can see why he wanted someone deep as I think the diamond/Winks as deepest lying midfielder is part of the problem. Winks is doing his level best to protect the back 4, but for me he doesn't have the right physical attributes to dominate that area of the pitch. He's fine in an attacking/possession sense, if anything he's warranted in that position against bottom 10 teams but against anything else a risk and leaving you wide open - hence our stats on a long-term downwards trend.

Dier played 90 minutes yesterday, and by all accounts was one of the only players to come out with any credit whatsoever. I find it hard to believe he wasnt up to 20+ minutes of game time. And considering how laboured Wanyama was moving, what are the chances that Dier was significantly behind him on Saturday, but basically fine yesterday?

I agree Sissokos yellow was the only logical reason to take him off, said as much myself in the match thread - it is literally the only thing I can think to justify it.

But even then, it feels tenuous.

And to then see Wanyama come on, Winks get moved etc just baffles.

Dier beside Winks, NDombele able to run ahead of them? That would have made much more sense. 4-2-3-1, proven to be solid for us etc...

Shuffling the diamond, taking off the better defensive player for the situation, and bringing on a player unable to run? It defies belief.
 
Again funny how @Grays_1890 knows what players are angling for, but won't collaborate Hoddle's insistence that in fact Poch was offered players during the windows we didn't sign, and Poch refused (nothing to do with club/Levy)

Sorry someone just broke into our building, have not seen that bit as every time I come on here there are a million replies.

That's well known that Poch turns players down that are presented to him. No if he has turned down players that he has then replaced with Lo Celso and Ndombele or they would have been as well as I don't know. I know they club feel the guy from Leics was a missed opportunity
 
Only reason Wanyama is playing is that he has revealing photos of Poch.

I do seem to remember though that in his book, Wanyama was one of the only players that Poch spoke about with affection.
 
He's repeatedly made team selections this season not capable of beating the opposition.
Dropping first choice players. Playing players out of position.
He has played his best 11 available once this season and we won 4-0.
If he had done this all the season there would be no trouble. Again last night he picked a weird team with 3 centre halfs and 2 dms.
He surely knows we're not gonna break down teams like this.

He can blame players and play silly games dropping whoever's aura is wrong this week.
But it's all on him to stop dingdonging around like Mourinho and fix things.
 
Sorry someone just broke into our building, have not seen that bit as every time I come on here there are a million replies.

That's well known that Poch turns players down that are presented to him. No if he has turned down players that he has then replaced with Lo Celso and Ndombele or they would have been as well as I don't know. I know they club feel the guy from Leics was a missed opportunity

Maddison and Brooks were both heavily linked with us. But so many different reports saying the same thing that Poch did not trust British players from the championship.

Is odd because so many good players have come through that way, if it were a country all the scouts would be sent there to look.
 
No worries matey, seemed a little flippant - I didnt anticipate you were on the phone (and I know how crappy it is to try and post on that...), my bad.

Is it that unusual, or difficult, to set the tone for a squad?

That seems to be the foundation of your point. Circumstances arent optimal, and so its somehow an especially difficult time?

I dont doubt, for a second, things are challenging and less than ideal.

But then I think about it, and fall back on first principles.

What is his job? Its to get the best out of what he has got.

What does that mean? It means having a plan, a vision, one that works for the tools he has, and setting about putting it together.

If Eriksen doesnt want to be part of it, then he isnt a tool in the box, discard him and find a plan that works without him.

If Wanyama isnt up to it, then dont play him - especially when you have better options on the bench.

Its not actually that complex, is it? I think with proper leadership, assertiveness, ruthlessness if need be - this whole situation doesnt get out of hand as it seems it is.

I genuinely feel that regardless of all the player shenanigans going on, and the disappointment of the CL, the greater problem is the lack of direction from Poch. He, and his tactics, and seemingly his leadership, is all over the place right now.

Yeah that is the foundation of my point - that I think it is an especially difficult time. I know that on the face of it things look far from awful, but personally I always think that the mood and mindset of a squad is a delicate and powerful thing, and that seeds of negativity (the likes of which I mentioned in my previous post) can quickly spread and snowball into something huge that totally transforms performance of the entire squad (for good or bad). I know it's a totally different set of circumstances, but as an example of the general principle I think of Leicester's performances pre-, during- and post-Ranieri.

I do agree that Poch probably isn't responding to this difficult time as well as he could. Though ultimately it's hard to say, as none of us know exactly what is going on in the heads of all the players. But at the very least we know Eriksen, Rose, Aurier, and Toby don't really want to be here. So does he banish them all to the reserves for an entire year? Do we really have the squad to withstand that, and is that not going to cause ongoing issues given that they are mates with all of the other players and will still be in touch with them? In terms of Wanyama, perhaps he's one of the players who is still most committed to the cause? And in any case, in my personal opinion he isn't a much worse option than Skipp (or even Dier depending on his form).

I guess I personally think that the circumstances are more challenging than other people do, and that the solutions are less easy than other people do. But I accept that none of us know exactly what's going on in the players' and manager's heads, and that it's therefore difficult to be sure about anything.

(I do agree that I'd like to see less tactical chopping and changing from Poch. But then it's always easy to criticise with no counterfactual to disprove us - after all we played 4-2-3-1 against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and were crap. And personally I think that psychological issues have a much bigger negative impact on teams than tactical issues, but that a lot of people focus on the latter because they're more tangible. I think it was a very similar sort of story when we suddenly fell apart in 11/12 after Redknapp didn't get the England job.)
 
Maddison and Brooks were both heavily linked with us. But so many different reports saying the same thing that Poch did not trust British players from the championship.

Is odd because so many good players have come through that way, if it were a country all the scouts would be sent there to look.

I don't keep up with it but was it not Walsh who was the scout there?

Tielemans was the one they thought we missed on and where Poch's hard headiness was at fault.
 
Not really a fan of breaking posts up, but seems the most coherent way to respond this time.

Yeah that is the foundation of my point - that I think it is an especially difficult time. I know that on the face of it things look far from awful, but personally I always think that the mood and mindset of a squad is a delicate and powerful thing, and that seeds of negativity (the likes of which I mentioned in my previous post) can quickly spread and snowball into something huge that totally transforms performance of the entire squad (for good or bad). I know it's a totally different set of circumstances, but as an example of the general principle I think of Leicester's performances pre-, during- and post-Ranieri.

I think this is really where we disagree, ultimately.

Ive no doubt there is a degree of balancing act to managing a group of players, and keeping everything ticking along.

BUT - it always comes back to leadership.

I think in any group situation, if someone is in charge, sets the tone, has the vision - things work.

If the leadership doesnt, things disintegrate.

And I also liken it to parenting. Kids are fudging animals if you let them behave that way, but can be an absolute dream when they understand their boundaries and limitations (leadership).

That snowballing effect you speak of, IMO, comes back to Poch. There may be mitigating circumstance, but ultimately its his job to deal with it.

Leicester pre/post Ranieri - again a lesson in leadership, IMO. Though maybe not showing the example to me that it is to you!


I do agree that Poch probably isn't responding to this difficult time as well as he could. Though ultimately it's hard to say, as none of us know exactly what is going on in the heads of all the players. But at the very least we know Eriksen, Rose, Aurier, and Toby don't really want to be here. So does he banish them all to the reserves for an entire year? Do we really have the squad to withstand that, and is that not going to cause ongoing issues given that they are mates with all of the other players and will still be in touch with them? In terms of Wanyama, perhaps he's one of the players who is still most committed to the cause? And in any case, in my personal opinion he isn't a much worse option than Skipp (or even Dier depending on his form).

He banishes those not on board.

For example, while I personally find Rose to be completely over rated - I dont doubt his commitment to playing for us. While he is here I have no issue with him being used.

Eriksen? His performances suggest quite the opposite.

Wanyama specifically is worse than Skipp and Dier, IMO, considerably so. "Peak" Wanyama? Not at all. Current Wanyama? Im not even sure he is at a Premier League level right now. Shouldnt be in the squad based solely on merit, let alone his desire to leave (or not, as the case may be).

Even with injuries, and issues, Poch could have a much better team and level of performance out of the current bunch, IMO. And THAT is really the crux of my issue right now.

I guess I personally think that the circumstances are more challenging than other people do, and that the solutions are less easy than other people do. But I accept that none of us know exactly what's going on in the players' and manager's heads, and that it's therefore difficult to be sure about anything.

Of course, we can only speculate. Though performances do really paint a picture, dont they?


(I do agree that I'd like to see less tactical chopping and changing from Poch. But then it's always easy to criticise with no counterfactual to disprove us - after all we played 4-2-3-1 against Saudi Sportswashing Machine and were crap. And personally I think that psychological issues have a much bigger negative impact on teams than tactical issues, but that a lot of people focus on the latter because they're more tangible. I think it was a very similar sort of story when we suddenly fell apart in 11/12 after Redknapp didn't get the England job.)

I disagree in that I think tactical issues are more impactful. They are the building blocks of the team, the foundation, and if that foundation is built on sand then no amount of good vibes and happy energy will change that.

Ironically this was exactly my issue with Redknapp at the time, the lack of underlying tactical basis was the thing holding us back IMO. And when heads dropped, as you say, performances went south and fast.

Truth is, its neither one nor the other, but a balance of both tactical set up and mentality, of course. Though I think the tactical set up is the thing that sets you up for success. The mentality is built upon faith in that set up...
 
I don't keep up with it but was it not Walsh who was the scout there?

Tielemans was the one they thought we missed on and where Poch's hard headiness was at fault.

I think Walsh moved on to Everton, and am pretty sure he isnt even there any more! (though stand to be corrected).

They have someone else in now. But no doubt they have a decent set up, their transfer business is for the most part pretty good IMO.


Tielemans? Cant help thinking Poch was right on that one. Though if Poch is part of the reason why we arent making loads of moves in the market, he also needs to live with the consequence of that IMO.
 
I do think a little more attention should be on the players as well, ok Rose is an easy one but lets look at his situation. Signed a new contract then got injured which frustrated him so he went on a couple of his famous rants. Did Poch reach negatively to it? No he forgave him and integrated him into the team when he was fit, even trusting him enough to start the CL final. Fair enough Rose still wants to move nearer to his family so we give him the option to sort a deal out and even leave him behind from the pre season tour to do it - unable to agree a deal with anyone (assume he's being greedy as he's not a bad player) and therefore stays at Spurs yet is angry at the club when they've forgiven his behaviour and done what they can to help him get a move. It feels like Rose is being unreasonable here.

Simialr with Toby, deal agreed then VD gets higher and he wants parity, not offered and he's in a huff. Deal remains on the table, low clause period starts and no one comes in for him yet he has the hump with us. We didn't stop him leaving, if clubs wanted him that badly then they would have bid £25m for him which is peanuts in this market.
 
Leicester love him, I work with a Leics season ticket holder and he raves every week about him, apparently sent in a delicious ball for a goal last night but been too busy dealing with someone breaking in to check, .

Im sure he is a good player, looks very tidy, nice vision etc. And Ive no doubt Leicester fans love him.

Ive just never seen anything when watching him that screams top quality, or a player that would really impact our team.
 
Not really a fan of breaking posts up, but seems the most coherent way to respond this time.



I think this is really where we disagree, ultimately.

Ive no doubt there is a degree of balancing act to managing a group of players, and keeping everything ticking along.

BUT - it always comes back to leadership.

I think in any group situation, if someone is in charge, sets the tone, has the vision - things work.

If the leadership doesnt, things disintegrate.

And I also liken it to parenting. Kids are fudging animals if you let them behave that way, but can be an absolute dream when they understand their boundaries and limitations (leadership).

That snowballing effect you speak of, IMO, comes back to Poch. There may be mitigating circumstance, but ultimately its his job to deal with it.

Leicester pre/post Ranieri - again a lesson in leadership, IMO. Though maybe not showing the example to me that it is to you!




He banishes those not on board.

For example, while I personally find Rose to be completely over rated - I dont doubt his commitment to playing for us. While he is here I have no issue with him being used.

Eriksen? His performances suggest quite the opposite.

Wanyama specifically is worse than Skipp and Dier, IMO, considerably so. "Peak" Wanyama? Not at all. Current Wanyama? Im not even sure he is at a Premier League level right now. Shouldnt be in the squad based solely on merit, let alone his desire to leave (or not, as the case may be).

Even with injuries, and issues, Poch could have a much better team and level of performance out of the current bunch, IMO. And THAT is really the crux of my issue right now.



Of course, we can only speculate. Though performances do really paint a picture, dont they?




I disagree in that I think tactical issues are more impactful. They are the building blocks of the team, the foundation, and if that foundation is built on sand then no amount of good vibes and happy energy will change that.

Ironically this was exactly my issue with Redknapp at the time, the lack of underlying tactical basis was the thing holding us back IMO. And when heads dropped, as you say, performances went south and fast.

Truth is, its neither one nor the other, but a balance of both tactical set up and meteorology, of course. Though I think the tactical set up is the thing that sets you up for success. The meteorology is built upon faith in that set up...

All fair enough - think we'll just have to agree to disagree on some points, and I'll have to conclude on others that I can't be sure either way based on the imperfect info we have access to!
 
All fair enough - think we'll just have to agree to disagree on some points, and I'll have to conclude on others that I can't be sure either way based on the imperfect info we have access to!

Short response again, why do I even bother...? ;)

We do only view through a small window, from the outside.

I think we can all agree though, things really arent right and something needs to change.

My hope is that Poch starts owning it all, making some tough calls, some brave ones, and getting more out of what he has at his disposal.

Id much prefer that than to see him leave, thats for sure.
 
The 2 windows before.

We are now seeing the impact
I think if everyone was happy the impact would be limited.

We had a sell to buy policy at that point...but didn't/couldn't get rid of anyone. Some are still here.

But what we know now certainly has stacked a bit of work up... especially defensively.
 
Its not actually that complex, is it? I think with proper leadership, assertiveness, ruthlessness if need be - this whole situation doesnt get out of hand as it seems it is.

I genuinely feel that regardless of all the player shenanigans going on, and the disappointment of the CL, the greater problem is the lack of direction from Poch. He, and his tactics, and seemingly his leadership, is all over the place right now.
Which is weird as some of those characteristics we thought he had in spades.

Perhaps it's external expectations he has hassle dealing with as it's not hard to see that the final steps are the hardest to take and realistically we're close to our ceiling. BUT everyone wants year on year improvement.
 
Which is weird as some of those characteristics we thought he had in spades.

Perhaps it's external expectations he has hassle dealing with as it's not hard to see that the final steps are the hardest to take and realistically we're close to our ceiling. BUT everyone wants year on year improvement.

Funny thing is if we just maintained what was our previous norms we'd coast to 3rd place. Utd, Arsenal and Chelsea are not challenge to a serious football team. We stumbled to it last year with the most feeble of run ins.
 
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