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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

At the end of the day its the end of a cycle, the changes probably are needed to some extent, you don't bring in a new manager and all of a sudden they fancy Wanyama and Co and Eriksen, Toby and Jan sign a new contract which if people above are to be believed would be the case.

If a new manager came in and inherited this situation, they could readily bin off anyone not on board and work with the players that are committed and willing to buy into his ethos/system/etc.

I see no reason at all why Poch cant/wont do the same.
 
In the case of Toby and Eriksen they’ve had pretty much double your money contracts on the table for 2 years now, they’ve chosen not to sign them thinking they were coverted, as it turns out they weren’t as popular as they thought, hardly the clubs fault.

Why would Jan be upset that a 22 year old, one of the hottest prospects in Europe, is getting 175k? Surely he wouldn’t expect that at the ripe old age of 32?

Everything you’ve said makes me think the players you’ve mentioned need to get in the real world! I feel far from sorry for them!

I have not blamed the club? I have not blamed the player.

I have stated the circumstances for how I know them
 
The Verthongen issue seems to have come out of left-field and only since he was left out on the opening day. I thought he was one of Poch's vice captains?

Poch can't seem to win. He's been advised by posters on this thread to leave out those who "aren't on the same page". He's tried that with both Verts and Eriksen but the replacements haven't been up to scratch so he's been forced to recall them. He's been heavily criticised for persisting with Sanchez instead of Verts and then at RB. What if Sanchez is sticking to the principles but is badly out of form? What should he do? Its a very difficult situation and one he needs to navigate carefully. I certainly don't have an answer. By far and away he's the best man for the job, he knows infinitely more about the mental and physical state of the players and every selection he makes is based on knowledge and data. We should all trust him on this.

One thing I will say is that providing these negative quotes to the press is really counter-productive. He could just stonewall it and claim we played well or that we didn't and call it out as such. Say we'll work to correct it and move on. Talking about chemistry and energy being missing - that would be fine behind the scenes but I almost feel we shouldn't know anything about it. It just sows the seeds of discontent and provides the opportunity for more of the squad to take their eyes off the ball because there's an excuse now to hide behind.

At the end of the day its all fine margins and but for a very harsh VAR call on Saturday I suspect we'd be sat here with the team with upward momentum having beaten a very tricky opponent away from home. And for those interested in stats we also out-scored Leicester on xG which is a good sign given the quality in their team. I just hope that wasn't a sliding doors moment. We need a couple of wins quickly, then hopefully things will settle down and the focus will elsewhere. Its very early in the season to be talking about a crisis.
 
The Verthongen issue seems to have come out of left-field and only since he was left out on the opening day. I thought he was one of Poch's vice captains?

Poch can't seem to win. He's been advised by posters on this thread to leave out those who "aren't on the same page". He's tried that with both Verts and Eriksen but the replacements haven't been up to scratch so he's been forced to recall them. He's been heavily criticised for persisting with Sanchez instead of Verts and then at RB. What if Sanchez is sticking to the principles but is badly out of form? What should he do? Its a very difficult situation and one he needs to navigate carefully. I certainly don't have an answer. By far and away he's the best man for the job, he knows infinitely more about the mental and physical state of the players and every selection he makes is based on knowledge and data. We should all trust him on this.

One thing I will say is that providing these negative quotes to the press is really counter-productive. He could just stonewall it and claim we played well or that we didn't and call it out as such. Say we'll work to correct it and move on. Talking about chemistry and energy being missing - that would be fine behind the scenes but I almost feel we shouldn't know anything about it. It just sows the seeds of discontent and provides the opportunity for more of the squad to take their eyes off the ball because there's an excuse now to hide behind.

At the end of the day its all fine margins and but for a very harsh VAR call on Saturday I suspect we'd be sat here with the team with upward momentum having beaten a very tricky opponent away from home. And for those interested in stats we also out-scored Leicester on xG which is a good sign given the quality in their team. I just hope that wasn't a sliding doors moment. We need a couple of wins quickly, then hopefully things will settle down and the focus will elsewhere. Its very early in the season to be talking about a crisis.


It really is a game of fine margins.

I thought there were positives against Leicester. I didnt like the formation much, and I wouldnt have made that selection, but there was at least a bit more cohesiveness and effort in the side and we played ok.

Then he basically threw it with a bizarre sub.

A sub so bizarre it calls into question what on earth he was thinking. After all season raising those questions again and again, it does come to a tipping point.

I understand the talk of an overhaul/Spurs MKII etc, but I just dont see anything to suggest theres a plan in place right now and thats a real concern.
 
And thats a very short post to completely ignore my attempt to engage with your question.

If you want to be more explicit, what question?



Framed in a rather leading manner, hence my addressing the point on investment specifically, and my thoughts around that.

In essence, I dont agree the question is valid (if thats the right way to put it).




What is normal? In the last 3 windows we have bought in 4 players. Maybe a little low, but is it really that dramatic?

And, again, the squad we have needs to be considered. Its top quality. Its not like we need to churn 4 in 4 out every window.



The last two years Poch has dealt with incredibly difficult circumstance. Literally nobody denies this. It is regularly acknowledged.

What is the "unusually difficult task" he faces right now? He has a quality squad, and if he had everything running on song we would be comfortably 3rd and chasing the top 2.



Im not sure what it is in my post that made you think Ive polarised anything.

My point is, and remains, very simple. He should be managing the squad he has better. Thats it.

Haha apologies, mine was a quick tongue-in-cheek response from my phone at the beginning of a work meeting! And I didn't mean to suggest that you specifically were polarising things - that part of my comment was intended to be a broader comment, rather than a reply to your post specifically. On the other points:

I agree the squad is high quality on paper. But for me the 'unusually difficult task' is trying to maintain squad harmony and motivation when: there are a number of key players (at least 4) who we know don't want to be here anymore, some of whom will leave in a year; when there's been a lack of top incoming signings to refresh and energise;* when our momentum has been going backwards for two years; and when this group is under pressure to win a trophy but has fallen just short in the PL, CL and domestic cups over a 4 year period (and not had a recent history of winning trophies before that). And my question was whether you can think of any examples of another club / manager who's been through these kinds of circumstances and done much better than Poch is doing. (I'm not suggesting that if there is an absence of examples it's proof that Poch is doing well, I'm just trying to illustrate how unusual I think the circumstances are).

I'm also not trying to suggest that Pochettino is completely free of blame, or that he couldn't possibly be doing a better job in the circumstances. I guess it ultimately just comes down to how challenging and hard-to-resolve you think his circumstances are, and therefore exactly how well or badly you think he is coping in those circumstances.

For example, when you say that Poch 'should be managing the squad he has better' - what does that mean more specifically? Do you think lots of other managers would be managing it better in these exact circumstances? Most other managers? Just a few top ones? I guess I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of managers would also be struggling, and not performing at their best, in the circumstances which I describe above.

*(I thought our 3 signings this summer were going to be the catalyst we needed, but I think we've just been unfortunate that their injuries have prevented this. Which I think makes the '4 players from 3 windows' point less positive in reality than it looks on paper).
 
I think ultimately we need to continue to trust in Poch. The fact is, he is a talent. He has given us great times and turned down more money from elsewhere to stay with us. He is the one intent on building the club where as a bunch of players have now started to take each summer as their opportunity to get out.

If we identify the problem at the club right now being that there are different people wanting to move in different directions, then we need to figure the best way forward. If the problem is that the training is stale, then Poch does need to change it up a bit. Bring in a new Assistant ala Fergie. But if the problem is that our strength was our togetherness and now that has gone, we need to figure out the quickest way to get that back. I don’t think chucking Poch is the way to go, unless we think we want to rip up the entire project and start again. Because at least 3 key players in this squad will be gone next summer, and if anything it will enable Poch to get back on a more even keel.

I wouldn’t be surprised if he is giving certain players enough rope to hang themselves. In his first season he played Adebayor, made Kaboul captain, was trying out Capoue, until it become clear they weren’t totally on board. I think his comments on transfer windows aren’t that he needs to buy players to succeed as much as it is that players will leave. And in the meantime, I would imagine probably late October early November, we’ll start seeing youger players in the team again, as happened in his first year. There will he less desire to make the senior players happy. Because he will have tried and it won’t be working.

It’s the Pelosi strategy for impeaching Trump. You don’t do it straight away and give them an excuse to say you were wrong. You stick up for these players, you defend them, and you give them every opportunity to succeed if they have decided to stay. And when it isn’t quite optimal, you have bought the excuse for young players to be given their chance, and in a lower pressure environment where expectations are reduced, and where the experienced players have already had their run.

I think that may be what is going on. Results may suffer for a few weeks, but it will be for the greater good.

(This is as much hope as expectation)

Also, frankly, I am not surprised with the news earlier in this thread that certain players are upset that they haven’t been paid more. To which I would say to them, boo fudging hoo. We were trying to build the club in a sustainable way, and if you went with the increased contracts we kept offering, when the stadium was built, you probably would have got more. If you trusted us, we would have looked after you. That you didn’t, and created a situation where we can’t offer you a new contract and you’ve been on the one you signed 4 years ago while we’ve brought new players in - that is entirely your problem, and your short sightedness. I think under Poch the expectations have been pretty clear that if you’re in, you’re in. We’ll look after you if you perform. But don’t give an excuse to make this club look disjointed, because it won’t go down well. They made a rod for their own back, and the hilarious thing is they’ve been offered routes out of the club but haven’t been able to find anything better! Should have trusted us in the first place.
 
In the case of Toby and Eriksen they’ve had pretty much double your money contracts on the table for 2 years now, they’ve chosen not to sign them thinking they were coverted, as it turns out they weren’t as popular as they thought, hardly the clubs fault.

Why would Jan be upset that a 22 year old, one of the hottest prospects in Europe, is getting 175k? Surely he wouldn’t expect that at the ripe old age of 32?

Everything you’ve said makes me think the players you’ve mentioned need to get in the real world! I feel far from sorry for them!

No, but then the club can’t be upset if he walks on a free next summer.

Same with TA/CE
 
Haha apologies, mine was a quick tongue-in-cheek response from my phone at the beginning of a work meeting! And I didn't mean to suggest that you specifically were polarising things - that part of my comment was intended to be a broader comment, rather than a reply to your post specifically. On the other points:

I agree the squad is high quality on paper. But for me the 'unusually difficult task' is trying to maintain squad harmony and motivation when: there are a number of key players (at least 4) who we know don't want to be here anymore, some of whom will leave in a year; when there's been a lack of top incoming signings to refresh and energise;* when our momentum has been going backwards for two years; and when this group is under pressure to win a trophy but has fallen just short in the PL, CL and domestic cups over a 4 year period (and not had a recent history of winning trophies before that). And my question was whether you can think of any examples of another club / manager who's been through these kinds of circumstances and done much better than Poch is doing. (I'm not suggesting that if there is an absence of examples it's proof that Poch is doing well, I'm just trying to illustrate how unusual I think the circumstances are).

I'm also not trying to suggest that Pochettino is completely free of blame, or that he couldn't possibly be doing a better job in the circumstances. I guess it ultimately just comes down to how challenging and hard-to-resolve you think his circumstances are, and therefore exactly how well or badly you think he is coping in those circumstances.

For example, when you say that Poch 'should be managing the squad he has better' - what does that mean more specifically? Do you think lots of other managers would be managing it better in these exact circumstances? Most other managers? Just a few top ones? I guess I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of managers would also be struggling, and not performing at their best, in the circumstances which I describe above.

*(I thought our 3 signings this summer were going to be the catalyst we needed, but I think we've just been unfortunate that their injuries have prevented this. Which I think makes the '4 players from 3 windows' point less positive in reality than it looks on paper).

Said it many times, most managers would get more out of a front three of Kane, Son, Lucas with support/rotation of Dele, Lamela and Eriksen. I'll be shot for it, but Redknapp would get more out of this squad now than Poch currently is.

If we were losing 5-4 most games and the lack of an effective RB and 2 sitting CM's were to blame, then Poch would have a case, but the fact is we are losing 1-0, 2-1 and this has been going on for months. It also kills his case in that the only one in the front line who isn't committed to Spurs is Eriksen .. so all seems a bit red herring to me.

Again funny how @Grays_1890 knows what players are angling for, but won't collaborate Hoddle's insistence that in fact Poch was offered players during the windows we didn't sign, and Poch refused (nothing to do with club/Levy)
 
Said it many times, most managers would get more out of a front three of Kane, Son, Lucas with support/rotation of Dele, Lamela and Eriksen. I'll be shot for it, but Redknapp would get more out of this squad now than Poch currently is.

If we were losing 5-4 most games and the lack of an effective RB and 2 sitting CM's were to blame, then Poch would have a case, but the fact is we are losing 1-0, 2-1 and this has been going on for months. It also kills his case in that the only one in the front line who isn't committed to Spurs is Eriksen .. so all seems a bit red herring to me.

Again funny how @Grays_1890 knows what players are angling for, but won't collaborate Hoddle's insistence that in fact Poch was offered players during the windows we didn't sign, and Poch refused (nothing to do with club/Levy)

But as I said, it's not about the quality of the players. I don't think a single person is saying it is. As I said in the post you quoted, for me it's about the broader circumstances that are affecting the mood / psychology / mindset of the entire squad.
 
Then he basically threw it with a bizarre sub.
A sub so bizarre it calls into question what on earth he was thinking. After all season raising those questions again and again, it does come to a tipping point.

I agree the sub seemed unwarranted and made even less sense as the game played out the way it did. That's probably based on our perception watching the game and recent Wanyama performances.

That said he does have all the data to hand. He has stats & videos immediately available on the touchline.
With Sissoko on a yellow perhaps a change was warranted. What if the stats from training showed that all of Wanyama/Dier/Skipp are a bit short of first-team fitness but perhaps Wanyama is ahead of the others? Logically the right sub to make becomes to bring Wanyama on? I can only think he's making dispassionate decisions which, on paper are correct. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

I can see why he wanted someone deep as I think the diamond/Winks as deepest lying midfielder is part of the problem. Winks is doing his level best to protect the back 4, but for me he doesn't have the right physical attributes to dominate that area of the pitch. He's fine in an attacking/possession sense, if anything he's warranted in that position against bottom 10 teams but against anything else a risk and leaving you wide open - hence our stats on a long-term downwards trend.
 
But as I said, it's not about the quality of the players. I don't think a single person is saying it is. As I said in the post you quoted, for me it's about the broader circumstances that are affecting the mood / psychology / mindset of the entire squad.

Then, if you admit that, it's the manager .. simple.

Listen Poch's fudging nonsense about Lemons and energy and all that is fine when it doesn't interfere (or helps) with the mood/motivation of squad, what is appears is he has let himself become upset and that is dragging the team down.
 
Then, if you admit that, it's the manager .. simple.

Listen Poch's fudging nonsense about Lemons and energy and all that is fine when it doesn't interfere (or helps) with the mood/motivation of squad, what is appears is he has let himself become upset and that is dragging the team down.

No it isn't fudging simple. You've just ignored everything in my post that that isn't about the manager. So I'll leave it there.
 
Said it many times, most managers would get more out of a front three of Kane, Son, Lucas with support/rotation of Dele, Lamela and Eriksen. I'll be shot for it, but Redknapp would get more out of this squad now than Poch currently is.

If we were losing 5-4 most games and the lack of an effective RB and 2 sitting CM's were to blame, then Poch would have a case, but the fact is we are losing 1-0, 2-1 and this has been going on for months. It also kills his case in that the only one in the front line who isn't committed to Spurs is Eriksen .. so all seems a bit red herring to me.

Again funny how @Grays_1890 knows what players are angling for, but won't collaborate Hoddle's insistence that in fact Poch was offered players during the windows we didn't sign, and Poch refused (nothing to do with club/Levy)

I agree about the attack but the problems in my eyes are at both ends of the pitch. We don’t keep many clean sheets these days and we look weak/vulnerable when teams come at us. Nowhere near as solid as we did a couple of years ago.
 
I’m not sure he is, if he* was we wouldn’t have gone 2 windows without signing anyone in prep


*recruitment team.
We bought Lo Celso for Eriksen and were sniffing around Fernandes and Dybala.

We bought Sanchez a couple of years ago, Foyth also and were sniffing around de Ligt. I think this is very much succession planning, whether you think the players we’ve bought are good enough is another matter. We were also linked with the lad from Sampdoria this summer, had Toby gone then I’m sure that would have been done.
 
Haha apologies, mine was a quick tongue-in-cheek response from my phone at the beginning of a work meeting! And I didn't mean to suggest that you specifically were polarising things - that part of my comment was intended to be a broader comment, rather than a reply to your post specifically. On the other points:

I agree the squad is high quality on paper. But for me the 'unusually difficult task' is trying to maintain squad harmony and motivation when: there are a number of key players (at least 4) who we know don't want to be here anymore, some of whom will leave in a year; when there's been a lack of top incoming signings to refresh and energise;* when our momentum has been going backwards for two years; and when this group is under pressure to win a trophy but has fallen just short in the PL, CL and domestic cups over a 4 year period (and not had a recent history of winning trophies before that). And my question was whether you can think of any examples of another club / manager who's been through these kinds of circumstances and done much better than Poch is doing. (I'm not suggesting that if there is an absence of examples it's proof that Poch is doing well, I'm just trying to illustrate how unusual I think the circumstances are).

I'm also not trying to suggest that Pochettino is completely free of blame, or that he couldn't possibly be doing a better job in the circumstances. I guess it ultimately just comes down to how challenging and hard-to-resolve you think his circumstances are, and therefore exactly how well or badly you think he is coping in those circumstances.

For example, when you say that Poch 'should be managing the squad he has better' - what does that mean more specifically? Do you think lots of other managers would be managing it better in these exact circumstances? Most other managers? Just a few top ones? I guess I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of managers would also be struggling, and not performing at their best, in the circumstances which I describe above.

*(I thought our 3 signings this summer were going to be the catalyst we needed, but I think we've just been unfortunate that their injuries have prevented this. Which I think makes the '4 players from 3 windows' point less positive in reality than it looks on paper).

No worries matey, seemed a little flippant - I didnt anticipate you were on the phone (and I know how crappy it is to try and post on that...), my bad.

Is it that unusual, or difficult, to set the tone for a squad?

That seems to be the foundation of your point. Circumstances arent optimal, and so its somehow an especially difficult time?

I dont doubt, for a second, things are challenging and less than ideal.

But then I think about it, and fall back on first principles.

What is his job? Its to get the best out of what he has got.

What does that mean? It means having a plan, a vision, one that works for the tools he has, and setting about putting it together.

If Eriksen doesnt want to be part of it, then he isnt a tool in the box, discard him and find a plan that works without him.

If Wanyama isnt up to it, then dont play him - especially when you have better options on the bench.

Its not actually that complex, is it? I think with proper leadership, assertiveness, ruthlessness if need be - this whole situation doesnt get out of hand as it seems it is.

I genuinely feel that regardless of all the player shenanigans going on, and the disappointment of the CL, the greater problem is the lack of direction from Poch. He, and his tactics, and seemingly his leadership, is all over the place right now.
 
I agree the sub seemed unwarranted and made even less sense as the game played out the way it did. That's probably based on our perception watching the game and recent Wanyama performances.

That said he does have all the data to hand. He has stats & videos immediately available on the touchline.
With Sissoko on a yellow perhaps a change was warranted. What if the stats from training showed that all of Wanyama/Dier/Skipp are a bit short of first-team fitness but perhaps Wanyama is ahead of the others? Logically the right sub to make becomes to bring Wanyama on? I can only think he's making dispassionate decisions which, on paper are correct. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.

I can see why he wanted someone deep as I think the diamond/Winks as deepest lying midfielder is part of the problem. Winks is doing his level best to protect the back 4, but for me he doesn't have the right physical attributes to dominate that area of the pitch. He's fine in an attacking/possession sense, if anything he's warranted in that position against bottom 10 teams but against anything else a risk and leaving you wide open - hence our stats on a long-term downwards trend.

Then change formation to suit the players you have available, instead of trying to squeeze them into your ideal.
 
We bought Lo Celso for Eriksen and were sniffing around Fernandes and Dybala.

We bought Sanchez a couple of years ago, Foyth also and were sniffing around de Ligt. I think this is very much succession planning, whether you think the players we’ve bought are good enough is another matter. We were also linked with the lad from Sampdoria this summer, had Toby gone then I’m sure that would have been done.

The 2 windows before.

We are now seeing the impact
 
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