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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked
- Thread starter DubaiSpur
- Start date
StephenH
David Ginola
The message in this post gets trotted out far too often!
it's boring now
(not you @Bedfordspurs the sentiment)
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
It’s true though
There we’re players out there who we’re in the WC semi final team... their better than that and they have to be held accountable too
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
Can’t argue with that but just don’t want the players to get off lightly
ricky2tricky4city
Steffen Freund
As I, and I think @thfcsteff have eluded too, the whole transition of the squad is taking far to long.
And to a man who wants to get on with Spurs 2.0 and a new project it must feel tortoise like as one window opens and another shuts and the players (although good and worth having) have mentally checked out.
He needs fresh blood that have new ears that want to listen, learn and be part of something. The period of signing no-one has compounded this. (There could well be valid reasons as to why we didn't sign anyone, but has left us where we are). This coupled with the long drawn out process of shifting people on is probably messing with Pochs head as he just wants to push on. It looks like he may have misjudged the closing of the window would 'focus minds'?
The new incomings this season is a good start. BUT it is only a start. We are at a start, not an end. That start has been long and drawn out, not for reasons all in Poch s control, he's waited by giving Levy last year, while the off the pitch stuff straightened itself out.
We are competitive BUT (like the man says himself) we haven't got that edge or harmony where the players are buzzing to play. And the difficult thing for him is he could easily say 'Eriksen Toby Jan Dier have all checked out....they will now never be selected' That could be the right thing to do BUT how well would it go down?
If it an 'end' you do have to be pragmatic and think of the viable options to replace him. Two of the top six have Ole and Fat Frank FFS.
And to a man who wants to get on with Spurs 2.0 and a new project it must feel tortoise like as one window opens and another shuts and the players (although good and worth having) have mentally checked out.
He needs fresh blood that have new ears that want to listen, learn and be part of something. The period of signing no-one has compounded this. (There could well be valid reasons as to why we didn't sign anyone, but has left us where we are). This coupled with the long drawn out process of shifting people on is probably messing with Pochs head as he just wants to push on. It looks like he may have misjudged the closing of the window would 'focus minds'?
The new incomings this season is a good start. BUT it is only a start. We are at a start, not an end. That start has been long and drawn out, not for reasons all in Poch s control, he's waited by giving Levy last year, while the off the pitch stuff straightened itself out.
We are competitive BUT (like the man says himself) we haven't got that edge or harmony where the players are buzzing to play. And the difficult thing for him is he could easily say 'Eriksen Toby Jan Dier have all checked out....they will now never be selected' That could be the right thing to do BUT how well would it go down?
If it an 'end' you do have to be pragmatic and think of the viable options to replace him. Two of the top six have Ole and Fat Frank FFS.
I completely disagree with this on so many levels.
- The players are checked out on him, it's his role to keep players motivated and playing (fudging Harry managed to keep Modric playing in his last year)
- Why does Poch need "fresh blood"? because he can't motivate players? if you tell me we need a RB and another CB/CM I'm ok with that, but there is a very good core of players here, no clean out needed.
- People keep using the no signings windows as a crutch for Poch, Glenn Hoddle (who I think knows more about the club than us) was adamant that Poch was offered signings in that summer and refused.
- The manager conversation is also a red hearing, Chelsea is a poison chalice due to the fact that they have had almost every top manager and have a transfer ban, United is just a circus. Allegri and Jose are on the market (just as examples) and like their personalities/styles or not, you would be pretty hard pressed to argue they wouldn't get more out of this squad.
I appreciate what Poch has done, but there are huge problems in any attempt to defend his current position
- 19 points from 17 games across 2 seasons is unacceptable, as is our away record, as is losing to a team 2 leagues down.
- Not getting the most out of 6 attacking players that are PL proven goal scorers (no other club in league has 3 players that are capable of 20+ and 3 players than do 10+ w/assists)
- And in the players leaving, Eriksen/Toby could have happened to any manager, but Jan? multiple times Jan has indicated he would like to play with Spurs until he isn't good enough anymore, too old. He's never pushed for money, never made noise yet somehow Poch has allowed something to get in the way, and I suspect that is a bigger problem in the dressing room than the just ambitious lot.
The pragmatic decision is super clear .. and it wouldn't be "give him a chance"
StephenH
David Ginola
The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say so it's not true as tonight and Saudi Sportswashing Machine have illustrated.
We still can't break down an average but determined defence.
This has been the case for some while this year especially, plus it looks to matters, not a jot who is in the team or the formation to a lesser extent.
IF we are purported to be the third-best team in the country, which this season I personally question, surly we should not be made to look like mugs in games like last night?
What makes you state categorically that players are checked out on Poch personally, rather than on the club more generally?
And why do you put the responsibility for players being motivated 100% on Poch, as if he has 100% control over that?
I’m not saying for one minute he’s blameless or has zero control, but I don’t understand why your view doesn’t seem to take into account at all that some players might just not want to be at the club anymore, and might just not be possible to get fully motivated.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
I absolutely appreciate fresh faces and competition helps things tremendously, but I refuse to absolve Poch of the clear lack of motivation in the squad because of it. Its his job to keep them focused and performing, regardless of things being ideal or not.
No, Ive taken your point to its essence. You list loads and loads of excuses to remove the responsibility from him - which at its essence - is to get the best out of the group of players he has.
Yes, of course, things get complicated, but really when you boil it down it is that simple.
Do you believe Poch is getting the best out of this group of players? I certainly do not, and THAT is the issue for me right now.
Im sure he would be much happier with a younger, hungrier, more impressionable squad. Im sure, like any manager, he would have loved to have shipped out the old guard, replace them with young talent, and push on.
How often do you suppose ANY manager gets things their own way like that? Id suggest virtually never, and yet every other manager (mostly!) manages to get on with the job at hand.
All your posts amount to the same thing, Poch is having a sulk and has dropped the ball massively. As I said, if thats really true, thats more damning of him than anything else Ive seen.
DeanoAustin
Jimmy McCormick
Yeah I agree with this. Poch can’t just write off the likes of Eriksen and Toby. For all the stick Harry gets, as you rightly pointed out, he kept Modric in top form for that last season.
It’s starting to look like Poch is a one trick pony. Get in young lads, run them into the ground and then rinse and repeat. If that’s the case, he’s not the manager for us. We accepted the last 5 years without a trophy as he was building towards it. But if all he’s going to do every few years is need to tear it back down because he’s burned bridges with players, we’re always going to be close but never win anything.
He’s got to be a better man manager than this and he’s got to have more tricks in the bag than get young lads in and run them into the ground.
How many other managers can you name that have been expected to achieve our current level of success with a comparative amount of net investment in the squad? You act as if our current situation in terms of squad investment and turnover is normal, and the same for other managers and teams - but surely you’d agree it isn’t?
I don’t know why these discussions always get so polarised - I’d have thought everyone can agree that Poch has been given an unusually difficult task, and recently hasn’t performed it as perfectly as he could. I find it odd if anyone suggests he bears no blame, and equally odd if anyone suggests he isn’t operating in very challenging and unusual circumstances.
fernadez
Dean Austin
I think the split comes from that in challenging and unusual circumstances the best thing to do is try and be consistent with things that work. If everything else is changing then be the constant.
Formations, line-ups etc have been anything but.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Look at the players he has. Is he getting the most out of the squad? A squad most managers in world football would be looking at rather enviously.
This is the context required when talking investment.
Of course ALL managers want new players. And absolutely, it is good to refresh the team and introduce competition. And yes, I agree, not spending for a year is obviously not optimal.
But people always bemoan investment as if we are fighting relegation with a team of cloggers. We very simply are not.
We have an excellent squad, that should be doing better, regardless of the compromises/issues/etc that it carries. (And I would venture, no club is ever really optimal, is it?)
I dont see why that is polarising. I dont see why it is not ok to pull up the manager and ask why he seems to be losing control of things - why he isnt really performing his primary role (or at least, it seems that way)
Thats not "Poch out". Thats not even extreme. Thats not to deny challenges.
I gave him all the grace in the world last season. I still do looking back. He was working under incredible constraints and compromises and difficulties and pulled off a remarkable result.
This season? Those same issues just dont exist.
Yes, some players are unsettled or whatever, but to allow that to manifest as it is? Thats on the management...
Bedfordspurs
Mark Falco
Sorry are you saying the players aren’t accountable then for not turning up last night?
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I agree with this overall point. It's not like we have an old squad. If Pochettino can't work well with players that are over 25/26 that would be a massive problem going forward even if we rejuvenated the squad at this point.
For the record I'm not saying that he can't work well with those players. Our Belgian centre backs is a good example to the contrary. But I'm not buying that we must allow Pochettino to make drastic changes to the squad if he's to continue succeeding if anyone is suggesting that.
Grays_1890
Chris Jones
The players have checked out on the club not Poch, he is left with players that don't want to be at Spurs and players he does not want, that's a fact.
I know 100% that the players who are winding down their contract (I told people Toby would stay and got panned) these players feel disillusioned because they feel their contribution to Spurs and the success including the commercial success in which their images have been used, in which their performances have given us top 4 every year which has lead to the money and commercial success and record incomes, they feel they deserve/deserved a larger slice of the pie financially.
Eriksen, Toby and Jan feel they have been a major factor on the Spurs you see now and feel they have not been treated fairly.
The others like Wanyama etc, Poch does not want them anymore but he is stuck with them.
I know 100% that the players who are winding down their contract (I told people Toby would stay and got panned) these players feel disillusioned because they feel their contribution to Spurs and the success including the commercial success in which their images have been used, in which their performances have given us top 4 every year which has lead to the money and commercial success and record incomes, they feel they deserve/deserved a larger slice of the pie financially.
Eriksen, Toby and Jan feel they have been a major factor on the Spurs you see now and feel they have not been treated fairly.
The others like Wanyama etc, Poch does not want them anymore but he is stuck with them.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
That’s a long post without answering my question...
And thats a very short post to completely ignore my attempt to engage with your question.
If you want to be more explicit, what question?
Framed in a rather leading manner, hence my addressing the point on investment specifically, and my thoughts around that.
In essence, I dont agree the question is valid (if thats the right way to put it).
What is normal? In the last 3 windows we have brought in 4 players. Maybe a little low, but is it really that dramatic?
And, again, the squad we have needs to be considered. Its top quality. Its not like we need to churn 4 in 4 out every window.
The last two years Poch has dealt with incredibly difficult circumstance. Literally nobody denies this. It is regularly acknowledged.
What is the "unusually difficult task" he faces right now? He has a quality squad, and if he had everything running on song we would be comfortably 3rd and chasing the top 2.
Im not sure what it is in my post that made you think Ive polarised anything.
My point is, and remains, very simple. He should be managing the squad he has better. Thats it.
I'm still behind him, he's earned the right to be given time to turn it round but the signs don't look good. There's clearly something up behind the scenes and his decision making seems to be getting wilder and wilder with all the formation changes and people playing way out of position - I mean Sanchez at RB type moves.
It's clear at least some players aren't listening to him anymore, no idea whether that affects the rest of the squad but he needs to get a grip and show he's in control of the situation - if that means banishing 1 or 2 players to get things settled then I'd support him in doing that.
Mind you if nothing has changed by Christmas then we're going to have to seriously look at our options, whether that be a firesale, dropping some cash, changing manager or more than one of them because things can't go on like this for the rest of the season.
It's clear at least some players aren't listening to him anymore, no idea whether that affects the rest of the squad but he needs to get a grip and show he's in control of the situation - if that means banishing 1 or 2 players to get things settled then I'd support him in doing that.
Mind you if nothing has changed by Christmas then we're going to have to seriously look at our options, whether that be a firesale, dropping some cash, changing manager or more than one of them because things can't go on like this for the rest of the season.