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Lucas Moura

a spur from swansea said:
Like him as a player last season or so but the last couple of months been acting like robbie keane sometimes........shouty pointy player...how many times does he give the ball away then points around with his finger to everyone afterwards, him and Lamela, the amount of loose passes and possession they've lost is so frustrating.

He needs to score a few more too.

Alli must be thinking how the fudge they are getting in front of me...
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Their getting in because when theh had their chance they did a lot more than dele has when he has had his chances in the last few games
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Their getting in because when theh had their chance they did a lot more than dele has when he has had his chances in the last few games
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To be fair, as I posted in the Dele thread, he was voted MOTM in his most recent start - against Marine. So he did do well when he was given his chance. But Jose then didn’t give him another minute until he came on in the 77th minute against Everton, which was Lamela and Moura’s second start in a row. (I appreciate Dele had an injury recently, but it wasn’t immediately after his Marine performance).
 
elltrev said:
To be fair, as I posted in the Dele thread, he was voted MOTM in his most recent start - against Marine. So he did do well when he was given his chance. But Jose then didn’t give him another minute until he came on in the 77th minute against Everton, which was Lamela and Moura’s second start in a row. (I appreciate Dele had an injury recently, but it wasn’t immediately after his Marine performance).
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Yeah Marine... not a game to judge any player
 
elltrev said:
To be fair, as I posted in the Dele thread, he was voted MOTM in his most recent start - against Marine. So he did do well when he was given his chance. But Jose then didn’t give him another minute until he came on in the 77th minute against Everton, which was Lamela and Moura’s second start in a row. (I appreciate Dele had an injury recently, but it wasn’t immediately after his Marine performance).
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Whereas he has been anonymous when brought on against actual, you know, professional football players.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
Yeah Marine... not a game to judge any player
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Well Moura also played in that game, was not voted MOTM, but still started in the next Cup game against Wycombe (whereas Dele didn’t even get a minute). So I don’t think your argument that it’s solely about playing well when getting gametime is accurate.

(I agree that Dele hasn’t been good in his last two sub appearances though).
 
Ok, to look at things in a different way: Lamela, Moura and Bergwijn have played 4.5, 6.5 and 10 times more PL minutes than Dele this season. Dele has played 101 minutes in total. Just 30 of those have come between the first game of the season and the last.

Personally I don’t think that gametime is proportionate to those players’ performances this season (not because Dele has been particularly good, but because he hasn’t been so much worse than the other three).
 
elltrev said:
Ok, to look at things in a different way: Lamela, Moura and Bergwijn have played 4.5, 6.5 and 10 times more PL minutes than Dele this season. Dele has played 101 minutes in total. Just 30 of those have come between the first game of the season and the last.

Personally I don’t think that gametime is proportionate to those players’ performances this season (not because Dele has been particularly good, but because he hasn’t been so much worse than the other three).
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Maybe
But when he has recently been given chances he has offered nothing
I mean he came on Everton and his first action was to dive and get booked for it
That was his impact
 
Arguing between Moura, Lamela and Dele is really fighting over crumbs. None have have consistently offered any quality this season with differing contexts admittedly but still no quality.

It's that age old axiom the longer the player is out the better they become.
 
Bishop said:
Arguing between Moura, Lamela and Dele is really fighting over crumbs. None have have consistently offered any quality this season with differing contexts admittedly but still no quality.

It's that age old axiom the longer the player is out the better they become.
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I don't think it's that simple in this case though. I think we've all seen that at his best (or even during last season), Dele is much better than Moura and Lamela (at least in terms of goals and assists). And I think it's pretty clear that there's been some sort of issue with Dele and Mourinho's relationship this season. So I think it's reasonable to think that if they could sort that out, and if Dele could get back some motivation / happiness / confidence, he could do more for this team than Moura or Lamela can.
 
elltrev said:
I don't think it's that simple in this case though. I think we've all seen that at his best (or even during last season), Dele is much better than Moura and Lamela (at least in terms of goals and assists). And I think it's pretty clear that there's been some sort of issue with Dele and Mourinho's relationship this season. So I think it's reasonable to think that if they could sort that out, and if Dele could get back some motivation / happiness / confidence, he could do more for this team than Moura or Lamela can.
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I do agree as much as I've never been the biggest fan of Dele, at his best he's at least a level above Lamela and Moura. It's jus been quite a while since he's been at his best.
 
Bishop said:
I do agree as much as I've never been the biggest fan of Dele, at his best he's at least a level above Lamela and Moura. It's jus been quite a while since he's been at his best.
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Funnily enough I’ve never been the biggest fan of Dele either! And I agree it’s been a while since he’s been at his best. But I think he was actually pretty decent last season, and IMO just hasn’t had a proper chance this season. Whereas Lamela, Moura and (particularly) Bergwijn have had far more chances this season, despite a) rarely looking any good and b) never having previously hit the peak that Dele has (or even matched Dele’s output last season, when he wasn’t at his best).
 
Bishop said:
I do agree as much as I've never been the biggest fan of Dele, at his best he's at least a level above Lamela and Moura. It's jus been quite a while since he's been at his best.
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Saying what a player "was" capable of is useless, under that pretence we should bench Son and play Bale every game.

Dele is a shadow of the player he was, he doesn't bring any urgency to the team (one of things that is an issue when we are playing badly) and quite honestly doesn't appear to give a fudge.

If people can't see why Lamela (who in the last 4 games was our best player in at least 2), Bergwijn (who enables Son/Kane) and Lucas (who's been good in cup games and brings workrate and pace to lineup) get preferred over Dele (outside of some unfounded hope that he will suddenly remember how to play?), I'm not sure what to say.
 
Raziel said:
Saying what a player "was" capable of is useless, under that pretence we should bench Son and play Bale every game.

Dele is a shadow of the player he was, he doesn't bring any urgency to the team (one of things that is an issue when we are playing badly) and quite honestly doesn't appear to give a fudge.

If people can't see why Lamela (who in the last 4 games was our best player in at least 2), Bergwijn (who enables Son/Kane) and Lucas (who's been good in cup games and brings workrate and pace to lineup) get preferred over Dele (outside of some unfounded hope that he will suddenly remember how to play?), I'm not sure what to say.
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Speaking for myself, I think the reason Dele is a shadow of the player he was is at least in part because there’s clearly been some sort of issue between him and Mourinho. So my hope is that they can resolve that (or better yet, that it had never happened in the first place). And that Dele can get back his happiness / motivation / confidence, because I think all things being equal he’s just a better player than Moura, Bergwijn and Lamela.

Of course if there’s no possible way of him getting back his happiness / motivation / confidence here, then I’m fine with others starting ahead of him.

Why do you think he’s a shadow of himself this season? Especially when last season he looked pretty decent?
 
elltrev said:
Speaking for myself, I think the reason Dele is a shadow of the player he was is at least in part because there’s clearly been some sort of issue between him and Mourinho. So my hope is that they can resolve that (or better yet, that it had never happened in the first place). And that Dele can get back his happiness / motivation / confidence, because I think all things being equal he’s just a better player than Moura, Bergwijn and Lamela.

Of course if there’s no possible way of him getting back his happiness / motivation / confidence here, then I’m fine with others starting ahead of him.

Why do you think he’s a shadow of himself this season? Especially when last season he looked pretty decent?
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Dele is one of three things
- He peaked at 21, add to the 5 million other next great british talents in the PL who peaked and never pushed on, will stay in PL and do the occasional highlight reel brick for the next ten years that will remind everyone of what could have been
- He's a luxury player that only works when setup a certain way that the team needs to carry (i.e. floating runner off Kane with Eriksen supplying)
- He just isn't working hard enough in a system (they why could be happiness/motivation/whatever), with a manager that expects everyone to put a shift, no passengers

My opinion, it's a mixture of all
- He hasn't kicked on as a player and in the EPL the opposition typically adapts very quickly to counter in a season or two (why Kane is amazing)
- He always was a luxury, at his peak he would be very ineffective for long periods of a game, then pop up with a goal/assist
- His head isn't in it, or he hasn't figured out what it takes to get him back to that space

So what we have is two players (Dele & Bale) on different ends of their careers who by talent should start every game, but by output don't deserve to displace anyone in front of them.
 
Bishop said:
Arguing between Moura, Lamela and Dele is really fighting over crumbs. None have have consistently offered any quality this season with differing contexts admittedly but still no quality.

It's that age old axiom the longer the player is out the better they become.
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Add Berwyn.

But the caveat to this under the current manager
 
Raziel said:
Dele is one of three things
- He peaked at 21, add to the 5 million other next great british talents in the PL who peaked and never pushed on, will stay in PL and do the occasional highlight reel brick for the next ten years that will remind everyone of what could have been
- He's a luxury player that only works when setup a certain way that the team needs to carry (i.e. floating runner off Kane with Eriksen supplying)
- He just isn't working hard enough in a system (they why could be happiness/motivation/whatever), with a manager that expects everyone to put a shift, no passengers

My opinion, it's a mixture of all
- He hasn't kicked on as a player and in the EPL the opposition typically adapts very quickly to counter in a season or two (why Kane is amazing)
- He always was a luxury, at his peak he would be very ineffective for long periods of a game, then pop up with a goal/assist
- His head isn't in it, or he hasn't figured out what it takes to get him back to that space

So what we have is two players (Dele & Bale) on different ends of their careers who by talent should start every game, but by output don't deserve to displace anyone in front of them.
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I guess the key point for me is that he looked pretty good last season, so I think that reduces the likelihood of your first two points. And I don’t recall any concerns with his work rate before this season (in relation to your third point).

Then this season he started the first game, was subbed at half time, and hasn’t started a single PL game since. It seems clear to me that Mourinho saw something he didn’t like at the beginning of the season, and for whatever reason the two of them just haven’t been able to see eye to eye since. And I think at this point Dele clearly does not want to be here / playing for Mourinho, and is frustrated at not being allowed to leave in January (which has contributed to his last two crappy sub appearances).
 
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