Lucas Moura

[harr1984]

We've had links to Jesus & Rashford recently - that's the level of rotation we should be looking to attain. That is if we want to progress and challenge.

No harm in having players like Moura filling out the squad, right attitude and happy with limited minutes, but you don't want to rely on them for an extended period - if Kulu or Son are long term injured then we will blunt our attacking play and lead to dropped points as we have seen over the last 2-3 years with him in the team as a starter.

Can possibly compare it to having Royal/Sanchez/Rodon/Winks as first options off the bench - we need to improve on that level of player to give us better options.

I agree with some of that. But I’d say Jesus/Rashford type is more about finally having a backup CF. We are never going to be able to attract a quality CF with a Kane here, so we have to get someone in who can play the AM positions aswell as CF and we can entice them by saying they will get game time there aswell as being Kanes understudy….

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What I find strange is the people cannot see how poor we suddenly look when Moura plays under conte. I mean the whole attack dies a lot. Kane looks right to pass it… Lucas is central. Someone passes it to Lucas on the right..he runs central and takes the space of a striker. He just dies not work in a team that wants to keep the ball and play with a set focus and pattern as his footballing brain is wired to run first rather than think. That can look exciting but it’s actually detrimental to the set up

I’ve seen examples where players don’t trust him in the system and actually turn the other way with the ball

what was the game where he started recently and we were woeful (as a team) but significantly better once Kulu came on and retained the ball, passed the ball, moved the ball, and more importantly stayed wide and owned his side. Edit - it was Leicester

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I see reference to Kulu and how much better he is, which statistically is fair. But this expectation of an upgrade for a role on the bench/rotation, it’s as if people are expecting a Mahrez or someone to turn up for that role.

Moura is far from perfect, but more than capable of filling cup games/low level league games and games where a bit of his ‘chaos’ is required to change things or break teams down. He does have genuine quality albeit inconsistent and with him being a top bloke and low maintenance he is more than qualified to be a useful squad player going forward….

Kulu came in for relatively p cheap money and is a BIG upgrade
There are a lot of players who would be and are available for the money we will sell Bergwein for
Players who will push Kane son and kulu are key
Maybe De Keteleare is one we should look at

 

[DTA]

Kulu came in for relatively p cheap money and is a BIG upgrade
There are a lot of players who would be and are available for the money we will sell Bergwein for
Players who will push Kane son and kulu are key
Maybe De Keteleare is one we should look at

push Kane and son for playing time? I don’t see that at all.

maybe to rest them. But they are elite, and we are very unlikely to get someone to push either, unless we are very lucky

 

[Bedfordspurs]

push Kane and son for playing time? I don’t see that at all.

maybe to rest them. But they are elite, and we are very unlikely to get someone to push either, unless we are very lucky

You mean like we were with son and Kane and Kulu… that’s why have a management team and a DOF
Johnson form Forest if they hadn’t gone up would have been a great option

 

[Raziel]

What I find strange is the people cannot see how poor we suddenly look when Moura plays under conte. I mean the whole attack dies a lot. Kane looks right to pass it… Lucas is central. Someone passes it to Lucas on the right..he runs central and takes the space of a striker. He just dies not work in a team that wants to keep the ball and play with a set focus and pattern as his footballing brain is wired to run first rather than think. That can look exciting but it’s actually detrimental to the set up

I’ve seen examples where players don’t trust him in the system and actually turn the other way with the ball

what was the game where he started recently and we were woeful (as a team) but significantly better once Kulu came on and retained the ball, passed the ball, moved the ball, and more importantly stayed wide and owned his side. Edit - it was Leicester

No one is saying Kulu isn't a better player than Lucas in our system (literally no one)

That said, when dominating a Norwich side, it was Lucas that came on and immediately got Son his goal.

The issue is Lucas is already a backup, the mad amount of energy you/other seem to push on the need to upgrade a backup is just odd ..

Doherty -> starter, needs to be upgraded (Spence to at least compete)
Sess -> starter, needs to be upgraded (done with Perisic)
Backup for Lloris -> Forster done
Davies -> starter, needs to be upgraded (seemingly in progress)
Bergwijn -> backup for Son, will need to be replaced as it looks like he is off
backup for Kane -> doesn't exist, we need to go buy one
CM to allow 3-5-2 option -> don't have one, hence rumours re Eriksen
Backup for Bentancur -> don't have one (think Skipp covers PEH), probably need one
Backup for Dier -> Rodon/Tanganga likely to head out, will probably need another body (Sanchez covers Romero position)

So at start of window, you had at least 9 positions at a higher priority than Lucas for replacing
At least 3 of those would impact the starting 11 (we have seen what happens when you actually upgrade the starting 11 with Romero/Bentancur/Kulu)
At least another 3 are just to have enough bodies in squad to compete in a full season with CL

So again, a decent level player, who is 10th on the priority list for change, would like cost us £40M+ to get a better version, isn't going to change the first 11 (unless you are advocating replacing Kulu as a starter), is liked in squad, happy to play bit part, why?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Indeed @Raziel any upgrade now for Moura would have to be opportunistic or cheap buy that has landed on our laps because a club is in financial trouble etc. We have other more pressing areas.

P.S. That Moura assist vs Norwich: Bergkamp-esque? (Think that goal he scored twenty years ago away at Saudi Sportswashing Machine)

 

[Raziel]

Indeed @Raziel any upgrade now for Moura would have to be opportunistic or cheap buy that has landed on our laps because a club is in financial trouble etc. We have other more pressing areas.

P.S. That Moura assist vs Norwich: Bergkamp-esque? (Think that goal he scored twenty years ago away at Saudi Sportswashing Machine)

That assist was absolutely filthy, and the body roll in the opposite direction completely fudged the defender ..

 

[harr1984]

Indeed @Raziel any upgrade now for Moura would have to be opportunistic or cheap buy that has landed on our laps because a club is in financial trouble etc. We have other more pressing areas.

P.S. That Moura assist vs Norwich: Bergkamp-esque? (Think that goal he scored twenty years ago away at Saudi Sportswashing Machine)

And what about the Moura goal vs Norwich?!

 

[Bedfordspurs]

And what about the Moura goal vs Norwich?!

Yep
Scored the same amount of goals as Sanchez…a CB

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No one is saying Kulu isn't a better player than Lucas in our system (literally no one)

That said, when dominating a Norwich side, it was Lucas that came on and immediately got Son his goal.

The issue is Lucas is already a backup, the mad amount of energy you/other seem to push on the need to upgrade a backup is just odd ..

Doherty -> starter, needs to be upgraded (Spence to at least compete)
Sess -> starter, needs to be upgraded (done with Perisic)
Backup for Lloris -> Forster done
Davies -> starter, needs to be upgraded (seemingly in progress)
Bergwijn -> backup for Son, will need to be replaced as it looks like he is off
backup for Kane -> doesn't exist, we need to go buy one
CM to allow 3-5-2 option -> don't have one, hence rumours re Eriksen
Backup for Bentancur -> don't have one (think Skipp covers PEH), probably need one
Backup for Dier -> Rodon/Tanganga likely to head out, will probably need another body (Sanchez covers Romero position)

So at start of window, you had at least 9 positions at a higher priority than Lucas for replacing
At least 3 of those would impact the starting 11 (we have seen what happens when you actually upgrade the starting 11 with Romero/Bentancur/Kulu)
At least another 3 are just to have enough bodies in squad to compete in a full season with CL

So again, a decent level player, who is 10th on the priority list for change, would like cost us £40M+ to get a better version, isn't going to change the first 11 (unless you are advocating replacing Kulu as a starter), is liked in squad, happy to play bit part, why?

Your back looking at back ups, not players who will actually change and improve the team.
If we only buy back ups we ain’t getting better as a team
We need a player who can challenge the attackers we have to start not be an adequate sub because everyone else is miles ahead of him
Pool signed Diaz to make their team better
We need to sign another attacker who is better than Moura and more like Kulu
People talk like this is impossible but actually we’re only after a player who can score 3 league goals a season to be an improvement

 

[Raziel]

Your back looking at back ups, not players who will actually change and improve the team.
If we only buy back ups we ain’t getting better as a team
We need a player who can challenge the attackers we have to start not be an adequate sub because everyone else is miles ahead of him
Pool signed Diaz to make their team better
We need to sign another attacker who is better than Moura and more like Kulu
People talk like this is impossible but actually we’re only after a player who can score 3 league goals a season to be an improvement

You completely missed the point -> there were (at start of window) literally are 9 other areas that will improve the team before you get to Lucas, not that you can't improve Lucas. If you buy a better player than Lucas, and Kulu stays fit all season, what difference is that player going to make to our season? (domestic cups?)

Pool signed Diaz because he was going to come to us, otherwise they would have waited until this summer when clearly one of Mane/Salah was likely to leave (again, prioritization)

We need to sign

- Another attacker that is cover/option for Kane
- We need to replace Bergwijn (cover for Son) if he goes
- We need to upgrade LCB, RWB (these will a real difference to our actual performance/season)
- We need to cover outgoings (Winks, Rodon at minimum)
- Conte wants another CM (again, potential to play 3-5-2 or have a midfielder that might be better suited to teams that sit deep could make a real difference to our season)

So yes, if we do all of those, and still have the time and money to replace Lucas -> sure but it will probably make very little difference overall

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

The Lucas conversation is honestly so strange

- He's happy to play for us
- He's had important moments for us, when he's showed up (Ajax obviously)
- He's a great option in cup games (like Lamela, while his PL numbers need improving, his style is super effective in cup games, will be important to rotation next season, 6 goals/8 assists return in a side that struggled for half a season isn't bad)
- Conte trusts him, and when Conte/everyone wanted someone to come on and get Son's his GB goals, who did, who delivered?
- He's different from what we have, yes it's a bit chaos at times, but he's quick, can beat his man, can be extremely direct

And yes, his numbers should be closer to that 18/19 season where he did 15 goals, 10 in PL, but he's also been asked to defend a lot in a struggling side in last few years.

Could we upgrade him? sure, for cheap? no, is it a priority? no?

He stays, we will look at backup for Kane, backup for Son if/when Bergwijn goes, but Lucas is so far down the priority list of to be upgraded (or that will make a difference to team as you will be upgrading a backup vs. starter), I have no fudging idea why people are so worked up.

Because if Bentancur and Kulu didn't come in January, it would have been Winks and Moura playing instead, and we wouldn't of got top 4. Is that clear enough?

Filling in is great as long as it's on the managers terms. Long term injuries dictate that sometimes it's not.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You completely missed the point -> there were (at start of window) literally are 9 other areas that will improve the team before you get to Lucas, not that you can't improve Lucas. If you buy a better player than Lucas, and Kulu stays fit all season, what difference is that player going to make to our season? (domestic cups?)

Pool signed Diaz because he was going to come to us, otherwise they would have waited until this summer when clearly one of Mane/Salah was likely to leave (again, prioritization)

We need to sign

- Another attacker that is cover/option for Kane
- We need to replace Bergwijn (cover for Son) if he goes
- We need to upgrade LCB, RWB (these will a real difference to our actual performance/season)
- We need to cover outgoings (Winks, Rodon at minimum)
- Conte wants another CM (again, potential to play 3-5-2 or have a midfielder that might be better suited to teams that sit deep could make a real difference to our season)

So yes, if we do all of those, and still have the time and money to replace Lucas -> sure but it will probably make very little difference overall

I just don’t agree
The defence was as a good as any defence once it was settled in those last 10 games
Hell we had back ups come in and it didn’t get any worse
Our attack…. Well when Moura played was poor, let’s just say that. I mean statistically it was poor. I think we scored a fraction of the goals over that period when he was on in comparison to the upgrade which is Kulu
When you look to the bench to change the game (as conte did) he realised he had one wide option and it was a player that doesn’t score and doesn’t assist… so what does he do?
Run a lot into blind alleys and cause chaos
That’s why an upgrade in that position is IMO much much more important than new wing backs or CMs because the players who did the cover role last year were not evidently weaker (unlike Lucas)

 

[DTA]

You mean like we were with son and Kane and Kulu… that’s why have a management team and a DOF
Johnson form Forest if they hadn’t gone up would have been a great option

Kane was from the academy and son was brought as a starter and took a year to settle, he was thinking of moving on after that year…

you can definitely upgrade on Moura but can you upgrade on him with someone who is willing to take moura’s role in the squad, ie someone who will come in for very limited minutes.

getting a back up for Kane is desirable, but someone to push him for his first team place is fanciful.. who is that going to be lewensuski (spelling)

same with Son which potential golden boot winning striker is going to come in to be his back up?

 

[Raziel]

Because if Bentancur and Kulu didn't come in January, it would have been Winks and Moura playing instead, and we wouldn't of got top 4. Is that clear enough?

Filling in is great as long as it's on the managers terms. Long term injuries dictate that sometimes it's not.

No, because we are not talking about last season, we are talking about next. Bentancur & Kulu replaced first team players, replacing Moura isn't replacing a first team player (which is actually the point I've been making)

If you are worried about long term injury cover, Kane & Son are a much bigger problem.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Kane was from the academy and son was brought as a starter and took a year to settle, he was thinking of moving on after that year…

you can definitely upgrade on Moura but can you upgrade on him with someone who is willing to take moura’s role in the squad, ie someone who will come in for very limited minutes.

getting a back up for Kane is desirable, but someone to push him for his first team place is fanciful.. who is that going to be lewensuski (spelling)

same with Son which potential golden boot winning striker is going to come in to be his back up?

I don’t want someone to come in as back up
I want someone with the hunger, drive and capability to replace these players
Kane had some dips last season. We had no one to replace him
Sonny had some dips too and stains we had one unfancied option
Kulu actually didn’t have any dips but he joined as an upgrade
I’m not saying you can replace world class players but you can certainly buy players to genuinely push them
Look at Jota at pool for example… he joined and people though he would be a sub. He started and scored goals, and became invaluable

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

No, because we are not talking about last season, we are talking about next. Bentancur & Kulu replaced first team players, replacing Moura isn't replacing a first team player (which is actually the point I've been making)

If you are worried about long term injury cover, Kane & Son are a much bigger problem.

To say the conversation is 'strange' is a little aloof imo.

Some people don't rate Moura, that's a fair pov imo, hardly outlandish.
There is a general consensus that even if Moura is ok, he is a bad fit for a Conte team/system.
The relevance of my post was ( as written the first time) that if we suffer a long term injury Moura isn't adequate cover. My example was to try and demonstrate what the result of Moura (or Winks) playing regularly might be.
You set your hierarchy for what business is important, some might not agree with it.

How about we get rid of Bergwijn (as he wants to go) AND Moura and bring in one player that can fill in across the front 3 (eg Jesus, rashford type...not saying I want them, they're just examples) and the first 2 priorities on your list are ticked? Then we have that player and Perisic to cover. I'd then probably buy Kostic for not much as extra left flank cover.

Moura is very much a known entity to us supporters, if Kulu was injured, plenty of us have seen enough to conclude that it would be detrimental to achieving our targets if he played for say 20 games straight. To me, that feels more of a worry than if Skipp had to come into midfield or Rodon or Sanchez coming into defence.

 

[parklane1]

If he wants too stay i have no problem with that, he always causes a problem for opposing teams and makes things happen. As others have said they are far more other posistions to focus on then getting rid of Moura. imo

 

[Raziel]

To say the conversation is 'strange' is a little aloof imo.

Some people don't rate Moura, that's a fair pov imo, hardly outlandish.
There is a general consensus that even if Moura is ok, he is a bad fit for a Conte team/system.
The relevance of my post was ( as written the first time) that if we suffer a long term injury Moura isn't adequate cover. My example was to try and demonstrate what the result of Moura (or Winks) playing regularly might be.
You set your hierarchy for what business is important, some might not agree with it.

How about we get rid of Bergwijn (as he wants to go) AND Moura and bring in one player that can fill in across the front 3 (eg Jesus, rashford type...not saying I want them, they're just examples) and the first 2 priorities on your list are ticked? Then we have that player and Perisic to cover. I'd then probably buy Kostic for not much as extra left flank cover.

Moura is very much a known entity to us supporters, if Kulu was injured, plenty of us have seen enough to conclude that it would be detrimental to achieving our targets if he played for say 20 games straight. To me, that feels more of a worry than if Skipp had to come into midfield or Rodon or Sanchez coming into defence.

I took the strange approach because I'm not really seeing a bunch of threads arguing to upgrade Sanchez, Rodon or even Gollini (is Forster even an upgrade there? or just HG), and while you feel that's less of a worry, I'm not sure I want to see 10 games of Rodon/Sanchez.

I totally get some people don't rate Lucas and I haven't tried to argue that or change anyone's mind.

Your first point is the interesting piece because I don't think if Kulu gets injured next season we play Lucas for 10+ games. I think we will strengthen the midfield (Eriksen maybe?) and if we get an injury to Son/Kulu, we will revert to Conte's most used formation of 3-5-2 and just play 2 up front (hence why again, I just don't see Lucas as priority). No issue conceptually with selling both to get a versatile forward that could play across the line, I do think we are already short numerically, so not sure it is the best result.