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Lionel Messi

galeforce said:
do you think thats due to him performing at a lesser level for Argentina or just that he doesn't have the strength around him that he does at club level?
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Combination of factors. Both of the above. Plus he has been used differently by Argentina - perhaps not to optimum effect.
 
galeforce said:
do you think thats due to him performing at a lesser level for Argentina or just that he doesn't have the strength around him that he does at club level?
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He has been unlucky in the sense that he's had some shocking managers at Argentina, but Maradona won a World Cup and reached another final with a pretty average team.
 
Jurgen the German said:
He has been unlucky in the sense that he's had some shocking managers at Argentina, but Maradona won a World Cup and reached another final with a pretty average team.
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Absolutely. I find it hard to believe that, with the talent at their disposal, Argentina won't eventually get it together.
 
I sky+'d the programme and just got around to watching it tonight.

Amazing.

If not England I would love for him to win the next WC because he deserves to have the whole haul.

Its crazy that we actually get to witness a player who will still be talked about 100 years from now.
 
it is looking like he's nailed it with Argentina now since the new coach took over, netting hattricks against Brazil and scoring pretty much every game. I just hope he keeps that up going into 2014. I mean he's plaeyd in 2 world cups yet people are saying he hasnt performed. HE HASNT EVEN HIT HIS PEAK!! He still has 2, maybe 3 world cups left in him. Imagine if he walked into Brazil in 2014 and walked out after winning Argentina the World Cup. GOAT!!
 
Messi-dribble-Cordoba.gif
 
Mumorn said:
it is looking like he's nailed it with Argentina now since the new coach took over, netting hattricks against Brazil and scoring pretty much every game. I just hope he keeps that up going into 2014. I mean he's plaeyd in 2 world cups yet people are saying he hasnt performed. HE HASNT EVEN HIT HIS PEAK!! He still has 2, maybe 3 world cups left in him. Imagine if he walked into Brazil in 2014 and walked out after winning Argentina the World Cup. GOAT!!
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His performances have actually been good. I watched every Argentina game in the 2010 World Cup. But at the end of the day, people only remember that he didn't score in any game, despite playing well. I'd love them and him to win it personally.
 
jimmyb said:
Top, but for one caveat......he's yet to really hit the heights at international level.

I have full confidence that he will, though.

Where would you rank him, african?
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not top thats for sure. i reserve that for the guys that took nations and clubs to the highest honours....and players that changed / redefine the game

messi isnt too far off though...he'd probably be somewhere between 4 and 7 to ever play the game
 
africanspurs said:
not top thats for sure. i reserve that for the guys that took nations and clubs to the highest honours....
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Do you not consider Maradona to be up there bearing in mind that he did not win the European Cup?

Winning trophies are not the be all and end all in defining a player’s quality, granted they go a long way in doing so in many cases but they are not the most crucial factor when it comes to comparisons. If football was an individual sport then it would be, but it’s not, it’s a team sport and there can be numerous factors as to why a team failed to achieve its goals. I admit I can’t help but compare trophies in some circumstances also when comparing certain players, but they really shouldn’t be a defining factor. Ability is and always should be the defining factor for determining a player’s quality. After all, we all here do agree that Ledley King is far superior to the likes of Phil Neville, right?

As I said above, trophies in many cases can play their part when it comes to comparisons, but they should not be the significant factor. The only time when comparing trophies is significant is when it comes to managers.


africanspurs said:
and players that changed / redefine the game
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Out of curiosity, which players do you consider to have ‘redefined the game’ and in what way? Do you mean individually or as part of a collective? If you mean individually do you not feel that Messi more than anybody else has disproved the myth that all footballers all need to be of a certain stature to reach the highest levels of the game? Due to Messi’s success we will not only see more and more players of his size be given the opportunity to develop but we will also see an increasing amount of players basing their game on technique more than any other attribute. If you mean as part of a collective do you not feel that both Barca’s and Messi’s philosophy/style have left a massive imprint in football around the world for the better?

Messi is not completely original in regards to his style (no one is), but he will more than likely be the point of reference for coaches and players around the world that wish to base their game on Barca’s technique based style.
 
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jurgen lineker said:
Do you not consider Maradona to be up there bearing in mind that he did not win the European Cup?

Winning trophies are not the be all and end all in defining a player’s quality, granted they go a long way in doing so in many cases but they are not the most crucial factor when it comes to comparisons. If football was an individual sport then it would be, but it’s not, it’s a team sport and there can be numerous factors as to why a team failed to achieve its goals. I admit I can’t help but compare trophies in some circumstances also when comparing certain players, but they really shouldn’t be a defining factor. Ability is and always should be the defining factor for determining a player’s quality. After all, we all here do agree that Ledley King is far superior to the likes of Phil Neville, right?

As I said above, trophies in many cases can play their part when it comes to comparisons, but they should not be the significant factor. The only time when comparing trophies is significant is when it comes to managers.




Out of curiosity, which players do you consider to have ‘redefined the game’ and in what way? Do you mean individually or as part of a collective? If you mean individually do you not feel that Messi more than anybody else has disproved the myth that all footballers all need to be of a certain stature to reach the highest levels of the game? Due to Messi’s success we will not only see more and more players of his size be given the opportunity to develop but we will also see an increasing amount of players basing their game on technique more than any other attribute. If you mean as part of a collective do you not feel that both Barca’s and Messi’s philosophy/style have left a massive imprint in football around the world for the better?

Messi is not completely original in regards to his style (no one is), but he will more than likely be the point of reference for coaches and players around the world that wish to base their game on Barca’s technique based style.
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Great post mate!
 
there is a case to be made that trophies are largely irrelevant when gauging the quality of a player, are all the bit part players united have used over the last 20 years for example better than Le Tissier, of course not, no player wins anything on their own no matter how good they are
 
jurgen lineker said:
Do you not consider Maradona to be up there bearing in mind that he did not win the European Cup?

Winning trophies are not the be all and end all in defining a player’s quality, granted they go a long way in doing so in many cases but they are not the most crucial factor when it comes to comparisons. If football was an individual sport then it would be, but it’s not, it’s a team sport and there can be numerous factors as to why a team failed to achieve its goals. I admit I can’t help but compare trophies in some circumstances also when comparing certain players, but they really shouldn’t be a defining factor. Ability is and always should be the defining factor for determining a player’s quality. After all, we all here do agree that Ledley King is far superior to the likes of Phil Neville, right?

As I said above, trophies in many cases can play their part when it comes to comparisons, but they should not be the significant factor. The only time when comparing trophies is significant is when it comes to managers.
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Maradona may not have won the European Cup, but he won Serie A with a smaller club and single handedly (sic) won the world cup for Argentina.

I agree with your general point. Trophies are only part of the equation. Playing well and taking your team further than expected is more important than trophies but much harder to judge. There is also the point that winning trophies involves producing under pressure against the best opposition. So it has to be a mixture and for the ultimate accolade both.

Take George Best, for instance. He won the European Cup with United, but never got a chance internationally. What a shame that Blanchflower, Best and Jennings weren't at their peak at the same time. Ultimately we'll never know if Best could have raised his game against the best at a world cup and he will always be judged second best to those with comparable skills who did. In contrast, Argentina provide Messi with the stage on which to perform. If he doesn't there will always be a little bit missing.

I prefer not to judge a player until after their career ends, but if Messi can win the world cup in Brasil it will be hard to find reasons not to put him at the top.

P.S. Why shouldn't managers be judged on the same criteria. Why should trophies be more important.
 
galeforce said:
there is a case to be made that trophies are largely irrelevant when gauging the quality of a player, are all the bit part players united have used over the last 20 years for example better than Le Tissier, of course not, no player wins anything on their own no matter how good they are
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That's true, and in that sense it's much more relevant to use individual honours rather than team trophies as a benchmark for a players quality. I'd say the list of Messi's individual honours and records (according to Wikipedia) is quite impressive, to say the least (some more impressive than other, admittedly):

Ballon d'Or (3): 2009, 2010, 2011.
FIFA World Player of the Year (1): 2009. Ceased to exist in 2009.
European Golden Shoe (2): 2010, 2012.
IFFHS World's Top Goal Scorer (1): 2011.[261]
LFP Best Forward (4): 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012.
LFP Best Player (4): 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012.
UEFA Champions League Top Goalscorer (4): 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012.
Onze d'Or (3): 2009, 2011, 2012. No winner in 2010.
Pichichi Trophy (2): 2010, 2012.
La Liga Ibero-American Player of the Year (5): 2007, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012.
UEFA Champions League Final Man of the Match (1): 2011.
ESM Team of the Year (6): 2005–06, 2007–08, 2008–09, 2009–10, 2010–11, 2011–12.
FIFA Club World Cup Golden Ball (2): 2009, 2011.
FIFA/FIFPro World XI (5): 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011.
La Liga Player of the Year (3): 2009, 2010, 2011.
UEFA Best Player in Europe Award (1): 2011. Created in 2011.
UEFA Team of the Year (4): 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011.
World Soccer Player of the Year (3): 2009, 2011, 2012.
La Liga Foreign Player of the Year (3): 2007, 2009, 2010. Ceased to exist in 2010.
UEFA Champions League Forward of the Year (1): 2009. Ceased to exist in 2010.
UEFA Club Footballer of the Year (1): 2009. Ceased to exist in 2010.
Marca Leyenda (1): 2009.
FIFPro World Young Player of the Year (3): 2006, 2007, 2008.
World Soccer Young Player of the Year (3): 2006, 2007, 2008.
Bravo Award (1): 2007.
Copa América Young Player of the Tournament (1): 2007.
European Golden Boy (1): 2005.
FIFA U-20 World Cup Player of the Tournament (1): 2005.
FIFA U-20 World Cup Top Goalscorer (1): 2005.

World records:
Most goals scored in a season (club and national team): 82 goals.
Most goals scored in a season (club): 73 goals.
Most international goals in a year (club and national team): 25 goals (shared with Vivian Woodward).
Most goals scored in a year (club and national team): 88 goals (Guinness World Record).
Most goals scored in a year (club): 76 goals.
Most goals scored in FIFA Club World Cup: 4 goals (held jointly with Denilson).

European records:
Most goals scored in a European Cup season: 14 goals (held jointly with José Altafini).
Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 awards (shared with Gerd Müller).
Highest scorer in a European Cup game: 5 goals (held jointly with ten other players).

Argentinian records:
Most goals scored in a year (national team): 12 goals (shared with Batistuta).

Spanish records:
Most goals scored in La Liga in a season: 50 goals.
Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8 hat-tricks.
Most goals scored in the Supercopa de España: 10 goals.
Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 10 matches (shared with Ronaldo and Mariano Martín).

Barcelona records:
Top scorer in official competitions: 285 goals.
Top scorer in La Liga: 192 goals.
Top scorer in UEFA Champions League: 56 goals.
Top scorer in European Competitions: 57 goals.
Top scorer in international Competitions: 61 goals.
Most all competitions hat-tricks overall: 21.
Most La Liga hat-tricks overall: 15.
 
jurgen lineker said:
Messi is not completely original in regards to his style (no one is), but he will more than likely be the point of reference for coaches and players around the world that wish to base their game on Barca’s technique based style.
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A style derived from the Ajax academies incidentally.

Good post btw.
 
Quite - their style is not unique or revolutionary in the slightest - simply arrived at a point in time where the right type of players were finally available to implement it.
 
I don't know hoe anyone can sit there and compare Messi with the likes of Pele and Maradonna as it has been different era's and let face it back in the Maradonna and Pele days i could have skipped past that poor defending.
 
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