Kieran Trippier

[DubaiSpur]

Seem to recall Modric was widely dismissed on arrival as being too slight for the PL.

Anyway I just googled Pereira's height. Yes he is 0.06m (4") shorter than Walker but 0.03m (2") TALLER than the great Danny Rose .

Yes, but Modric wasn't a defender. Plus, I felt like we had a good thing going in terms of setting up a backline that was both physically imposing and technically skilled - ignoring Rose for a moment, a back line of Walker - Toby - Jan - Davies would probably have been one of the tallest defenses in Europe on average (because of the lack of the archetypal short full-backs that traditionally bring down the average height).

If we sign Pereira now, though, 4 of our 5 full-backs in 2017-2018 (Trippier, Pereira, Rose and Walker-Peters) will be titchy sorts. And that's just sad from the perspective of someone who wanted a team of unstoppably skilled giants to bully teams into submission simply by being superhuman.

 

[DeleHarry]

I'd expect him to improve on that this season - not saying he won't, because he seems genuinely aware that it's a problem for him.

But will that be enough to make up for the loss of Kyle? Not sure. This Pereira bloke we're targeting seems to tick the boxes in terms of being pacy and a good defender, but he's also quite small in terms of physique, much like Trippier - I feel like that in itself will be another hindrance in a league where teams are actively stocking up on big, fast players (https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jul/14/jose-mourinho-tall-story-manchester-united-manager).

Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Dier, Wanyama, Dembele, Dele, Kane are all big units who can more than handle themselves in the pitch. Only Rose, Winks and Trippier are on the short side. Even Eriksen, Lamela and Son are decent heights

 

[Spur of the moment]

Yes, but Modric wasn't a defender. Plus, I felt like we had a good thing going in terms of setting up a backline that was both physically imposing and technically skilled - ignoring Rose for a moment, a back line of Walker - Toby - Jan - Davies would probably have been one of the tallest defenses in Europe on average (because of the lack of the archetypal short full-backs that traditionally bring down the average height).

If we sign Pereira now, though, 4 of our 5 full-backs in 2017-2018 (Trippier, Pereira, Rose and Walker-Peters) will be titchy sorts. And that's just sad from the perspective of someone who wanted a team of unstoppably skilled giants to bully teams into submission simply by being superhuman.

Once again I think you are being over-simplistic. Every player regardless of height/physique/whatever brings a set of unique qualities to the table. Some are fast, some tricky, some powerful, some tidy, some crafty etc. They all play a part in different ways. It's about getting the right mix, and I can think of few better than Poch at achieving that.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Once again I think you are being over-simplistic. Every player regardless of height/physique/whatever brings a set of unique qualities to the table. Some are fast, some tricky, some powerful, some tidy, some crafty etc. They all play a part in different ways. It's about getting the right mix, and I can think of few better than Poch at achieving that.

Not necessarily. In some cases, it really is that simplistic.

If you have two players who are both equally fast, strong, skillful and intelligent, but one is taller than the other, which one would you pick? Be honest, now.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Not necessarily. In some cases, it really is that simplistic.

If you have two players who are both equally fast, strong, skillful and intelligent, but one is taller than the other, which one would you pick? Be honest, now.

You are still missing my point. No two players are the same, or even that close. Every player you bring in is about compromising one quality to gain another.

I prefer to put my trust in Poch. Some he'll win, some he'll lose but the chances are neither you nor I can accurately predict which will be which.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You are still missing my point. No two players are the same, or even that close. Every player you bring in is about compromising one quality to gain another.

I prefer to put my trust in Poch. Some he'll win, some he'll lose but the chances are neither you nor I can accurately predict which will be which.

Yes, and with all due respect, you're dodging the question.

Hypothetically, two players are close enough in abilities, speed and footballing intelligence that the differences are insubstantial. But one is significantly taller than the other. Which would you choose?

 

[Spur of the moment]

Yes, and with all due respect, you're dodging the question.

Hypothetically, two players are close enough in abilities, speed and footballing intelligence that the differences are insubstantial. But one is significantly taller than the other. Which would you choose?

No I did not dodge the question, I answered it by saying no two players are ever the same. I might choose the shorter player for any one of a dozen reasons why he was better in one way or another. Peter Crouch is a giant of a CF, but show me another Peter Crouch and I'll show you a dozen differences between them.

In other words you are still being too simplistic.

 

[DubaiSpur]

No I did not dodge the question, I answered it by saying no two players are ever the same. I might choose the shorter player for any one of a dozen reasons why he was better in one way or another. Peter Crouch is a giant of a CF, but show me another Peter Crouch and I'll show you a dozen differences between them.

In other words you are still being too simplistic.

Doesn't really add-up, though - you're comparing Peter Crouch with another giant with differing qualities. Peter Crouch is a giant, but suppose there was a smaller striker equally lacking in pace and ungainly on the run - who would choose that player over Crouch?

Sometimes, the simplicity of football shines through, even in an age where everything is analyzed by ten thousand analysts in the media and on the web. To the utter bemusement of people within the game at times - Dieter Hecking memorably stated once that he read some deep tactical analysis of his approach (I think on Spielverlagerung) and was baffled by how complex they made his tactics out to be. "They say I came up with these complex things? Nonsense..."

Bigger is ultimately better, provided everything else is equal or roughly comparable. And I don't think that situation is as rare as you're making it out to be, is all.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Doesn't really add-up, though - you're comparing Peter Crouch with another giant with differing qualities. Peter Crouch is a giant, but suppose there was a smaller striker equally lacking in pace and ungainly on the run - who would choose that player over Crouch?

Sometimes, the simplicity of football shines through, even in an age where everything is analyzed by ten thousand analysts in the media and on the web. To the utter bemusement of people within the game at times - Dieter Hecking memorably stated once that he read some deep tactical analysis of his approach (I think on Spielverlagerung) and was baffled by how complex they made his tactics out to be. "They say I came up with these complex things? Nonsense..."

Bigger is ultimately better, provided everything else is equal or roughly comparable. And I don't think that situation is as rare as you're making it out to be, is all.

You are still oversimplifying it.

Philip Lahm is regarded as one of the best RBs in the world but he is the same height as Pereira. Think about all the other differences between them and maybe, just maybe, you will begin to see my point at last. Then again, given your determination to disregard the evidence, maybe not.

 

[DubaiSpur]

You are still oversimplifying it.

Philip Lahm is regarded as one of the best RBs in the world but he is the same height as Pereira. Think about all the other differences between them and maybe, just maybe, you will begin to see my point at last. Then again, given your determination to disregard the evidence, maybe not.

"Provided everything else is equal." Show me a tall right back with the footballing intelligence of Phillip Lahm - when he played, he stood alone in that department by a long way.

It's not hard disregarding whatever nebulous evidence you claim to have provided, mate. You claim that there are many intangible things that make a short player better than a tall one in many cases, but a) you never specify what these great intangibles are, and b) that's still evading my main point - which is that, in a situation where all else is comparable (which is not as rare as you make it seem), the tall player is preferable to the short player every time.

If that's your measure of making an evidence-based point, it's an extremely poor one.

 

[Spur of the moment]

"Provided everything else is equal." Show me a tall right back with the footballing intelligence of Phillip Lahm - when he played, he stood alone in that department by a long way.

It's not hard disregarding whatever nebulous evidence you claim to have provided, mate. You claim that there are many intangible things that make a short player better than a tall one in many cases, but a) you never specify what these great intangibles are, and b) that's still evading my main point - which is that, in a situation where all else is comparable (which is not as rare as you make it seem), the tall player is preferable to the short player every time.

If that's your measure of making an evidence-based point, it's a poor one.

Everything else is NEVER equal, so what is the point in arguing a hypothetical case based upon the premise that it could be. There is just no point to it.

 

[Jordinho]

I have it on good authority that Bellerin and Valencia are both superior to Trippier and Walker.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Everything else is NEVER equal, so what is the point in arguing a hypothetical case based upon the premise that it could be. There is just no point to it.

Rarely is not the same as never - and in cases where *equal* is too stringent a requirement, *comparable* gets the point across just fine. Again, none of this is particularly astonishing or unusual - if Modric was considered too small to make it in the Premier League despite all his attendant other qualities, then there is clearly a very significant level of importance attached to height on these shores. Then, logically, it stands to reason that if height is a valued attribute, then there are cases where it has proven the deciding factor between two players perceived to be of roughly equal quality in other areas.

 

[Spur of the moment]

It's not hard disregarding whatever nebulous evidence you claim to have provided, mate. You claim that there are many intangible things that make a short player better than a tall one in many cases, but a) you never specify what these great intangibles are, and b) that's still evading my main point - which is that, in a situation where all else is comparable (which is not as rare as you make it seem), the tall player is preferable to the short player every time.

If that's your measure of making an evidence-based point, it's an extremely poor one.

Wrong! Perhaps you did not read the whole of the post in which I said 'Every player regardless of height/physique/whatever brings a set of unique qualities to the table. Some are fast, some tricky, some powerful, some tidy, some crafty etc.' I suggest that more than adequately covered the intangibles you claim I did not specify.

I have also answered your hypothetical question by pointing out it can never ever come down to that. It is why I argued you are over-simplifying the discussion about Pereira in the first place. Nothing can EVER be as simple as you would have it. Every player is bought on a calculation of his strengths and weaknesses. There is never ever going to be a time when two players of different heights are identical in every other respect so it is an utter waste of time trying to hypothetise about it.

 

[DubaiSpur]

Wrong! Perhaps you did not read the whole of the post in which I said 'Every player regardless of height/physique/whatever brings a set of unique qualities to the table. Some are fast, some tricky, some powerful, some tidy, some crafty etc.' I suggest that more than adequately covered the intangibles you claim I did not specify.

I have also answered your hypothetical question by pointing out it can never ever come down to that. It is why I argued you are over-simplifying the discussion about Pereira in the first place. Nothing can EVER be as simple as you would have it. Every player is bought on a calculation of his strengths and weaknesses. There is never ever going to be a time when two players of different heights are identical in every other respect so it is an utter waste of time trying to hypothetise about it.

Apologies - you did specify your intangibles. However, they are hardly so exclusive as to not be common across players. Fast, tricky, powerful, tidy, crafty...these are not numerically-defined as much as they are general statements of a player's attributes, and those can be replicated across many players.

Take, for instance, Nelson Semedo and the same Ricardo Pereira that we're linked with. Both are right-backs, both are young both are fast, both are tricky, both are tidy on the ball, both are uncommonly creative (which is what I assume you meant by 'crafty'). In fact, even height wise, they're roughly comparable - 175cm to 177cm. And they're both young, and they're both Portuguese, and they both play for top Portuguese clubs (Semedo for Benfica, Pereira for Porto) and they're both highly rated.

Are they 100% identical? No, of course not. But, as I stated above, in situations where equal is too stringent a requirement, *comparable* gets the point across just fine. They are comparable in their footballing attributes - very much so. So much so, in fact, that they're *nearly* identical.

It is not rare to have this situation. It is rare (but not impossible) to have two players so similar that they are alike, but it is quite possible to have a scenario where players are almost indistinguishable on a practical level - and height enters the equation as a vital differentiating factor in those scenarios, *always* slanted towards the taller player being more preferable. It's just logical. Not in this case, because the difference is so marginal as to be irrelevant, but in cases with a more pronounced height difference? Certainly.

 

[braineclipse]

Not necessarily. In some cases, it really is that simplistic.

If you have two players who are both equally fast, strong, skillful and intelligent, but one is taller than the other, which one would you pick? Be honest, now.

How many goals a season would you estimate that the shorter full back would cost us in this hypothetical?

I would argue that other factors can be just as important as height if your concern is losing headers. Strength, bravery, marking, positioning... Rose is fairly short, but makes up for it in other ways and opponents very rarely get comfortable headers against him in dangerous positions. Rose now is clearly superior to Walker 4 years ago in this particular area, despite being shorter and Walker being a physical beast even back then.

 

[afsoc4life]

Lets give Kieran a chance. It is not his fault that Kyle wanted to leave.

 

[Gazza]

Lets give Kieran a chance. It is not his fault that Kyle wanted to leave.

Actually it is his fault ... he trained and brought into competely trusting poch hence playing in the big games in the tail end of the season.

 

[NickTB]

Actually it is his fault ... he trained and brought into competely trusting poch hence playing in the big games in the tail end of the season.

Great point. Give him his wings, he may just fly

 

[harr1984]

Great point. Give him his wings, he may just fly

Well as far as I've seen he has been flying. It's not just his crossing, but some of his forward passes to our front line have been brilliant and he adds a dimension we don't have with Walker with his superior footballing brain. Not trying to suggest Walker isn't superior in certain areas but with Trippier playing consistently I don't see us being any weaker in that position overall....