Juande Ramos

[Jurgen the German]

I know that he dived a few times but I also think that he was wrongly penalised too many other times. V Sunderland TWICE in the same season, he was denied stone wall penalties!

I wouldn't disagree with that, I remember one against Stoke last season also that was a penalty but wasn't given.

 

[Spurs7891]

Is there any manager in modern football who never had atleast one of his players cheating ? I think winning is far more important than being honest nowadays. Don't think any manager in their right frame of mind would discourage any of his players from game manship or cheating in order to get advantage for his team.

 

[Danners9]

I'd say it's one of the saddest parts of modern football that you HAVE to cheat to get the decisions you deserve.

Why should a talented player - say Bale or Cristiano Ronaldo - be chopped down by a lumbering centre defender 5 or 6 times a game for the player to receive a yellow on the final challenge? it's understandable that the player will dive or exaggerate to either get out of the way or get the player booked earlier and prevent further assaults. I am not excusing diving, it's scummy, but that's only from a personal perspective, I totally understand why an athlete won't want to get hurt. The way Pires or Suarez dive now is different, they are/were not the full pace types. They chose to fall.

The game is fast, the players are supreme athletes, the officials are - by and large - useless at detecting the subtle/snide fouls. It has become necessary to show them the foul or be punished by not receiving the free kicks.

Playing in European competition is a key factor. Watch when Spurs play Benfica. The Portuguese players will dive, roll, fall over at every little thing and we'll concede from a free kick. Remember the Braga game a few years back? It'll be like that. My guess is it will be Dawson giving away a foul around the edge of the box or in crossing positions.

Sad that it has come to this but if you don't play the game you end up losing, this is what the game has become... I'm sure people will say they'd rather lose than 'cheat', the other team will win by cheating, so why not play by the same rules.

 

[Spurs7891]

I'd say it's one of the saddest parts of modern football that you HAVE to cheat to get the decisions you deserve.

Why should a talented player - say Bale or Cristiano Ronaldo - be chopped down by a lumbering centre defender 5 or 6 times a game for the player to receive a yellow on the final challenge? it's understandable that the player will dive or exaggerate to either get out of the way or get the player booked earlier and prevent further assaults. I am not excusing diving, it's scummy, but that's only from a personal perspective, I totally understand why an athlete won't want to get hurt. The way Pires or Suarez dive now is different, they are/were not the full pace types. They chose to fall.

The game is fast, the players are supreme athletes, the officials are - by and large - useless at detecting the subtle/snide fouls. It has become necessary to show them the foul or be punished by not receiving the free kicks.

Playing in European competition is a key factor. Watch when Spurs play Benfica. The Portuguese players will dive, roll, fall over at every little thing and we'll concede from a free kick. Remember the Braga game a few years back? It'll be like that. My guess is it will be Dawson giving away a foul around the edge of the box or in crossing positions.

Sad that it has come to this but if you don't play the game you end up losing, this is what the game has become... I'm sure people will say they'd rather lose than 'cheat', the other team will win by cheating, so why not play by the same rules.

Don't just blame the non-British players. There have been many top British players who have cheated, dived or have resorted to other types of gamemanship in order to win matches. Players like Gerrard, Terry, Bale and Cole have done this many times over the years. The thing is, if you don't cheat, you will end up getting cheated in football nowadays.

 

[Danners9]

Don't just blame the non-British players. There have been many top British players who have cheated, dived or have resorted to other types of gamemanship in order to win matches. Players like Gerrard, Terry, Bale and Cole have done this many times over the years. The thing is, if you don't cheat, you will end up getting cheated in football nowadays.

I wasn't. I was saying what will happen in our game vs Benfica.

No one else is mentioned, are they?

 

[90sSpursBook]

I should state that, as the original poster, this is not a thread about how foreigners cheat and than that us English always play with fairly as the examples already cited including Bale prove otherwise.

 

[Roland Beurre]

I don't like this line of thinking, I'm not just having a go at you here, but it's a general sanctimoious English view that no one in England cheats. Plenty of British players have been diving for years:

Rodney Marsh
Linekar
Michael Owen
Ashley Young
Ashley Cole
Rooney
Gareth Bale

I take your point it's worse on the continent in the sense that teams will do almost anything to gain an advantage but I'd want a Spurs player to do with Luis Suarez did at the last World Cup if it ensured we won the game, in fact, I'm sure Paul Scholes did the same thing and there was no outrage like there was with Suarez.

Lots of British players cheat. Cliff Jones - a great player - had a habit of running so fast he was in danger of losing control of the ball so he used to push it past the last player and run into him.

However, I am surprised at the inclusion of Gary "never been booked" Lineker in your list. There is a part of me that in the "Hand of Sod" game against Argentina, wishes he had slapped the ball in with his hand when he and the defender were both diving on the goal line for the cross Barnes had put in, but he didn't.

England would have lost on penalties anyway ...

 

[milo]

Lots of British players cheat. Cliff Jones - a great player - had a habit of running so fast he was in danger of losing control of the ball so he used to push it past the last player and run into him.

However, I am surprised at the inclusion of Gary "never been booked" Lineker in your list. There is a part of me that in the "Hand of Sod" game against Argentina, wishes he had slapped the ball in with his hand when he and the defender were both diving on the goal line for the cross Barnes had put in, but he didn't.

England would have lost on penalties anyway ...

Absolutely, Linekar was no diver

 

[Whiffler]

I commend younger members to watch today's offering on BBC2 - School for Scoundrels.

Covers what is cheating, gamesmanship, or one-upmanship.

 

[Roland Beurre]

I commend younger members to watch today's offering on BBC2 - School for Scoundrels.

Covers what is cheating, gamesmanship, or one-upmanship.

Also, it might introduce the younger members to the phrase: "absolute ruddy shower".

I am sure they will find numerous opportunities before the season is out to use the phrase.

 

[a spur from swansea]

Tony Pulis said after yesterdays game down in Swansea that he's going to fine the two players who were booked for diving yesterday............i wonder if we see the relevant pay slips with these fines on it,i don't think so,what managers say in public and what goes on in the dressing rooms are two different worlds.

I think if they got a penalty that saves them from relegation their be no mention of fines then especially the amount of bonus's players and managers are on.

 

[Parklaner81]

Absolutely, Linekar was no diver

Let me add my voice to this too.

 

[Neymar]

Tony Pulis is what is everything that is wrong with football imo.

He talks about fining players that dived the other day and labels their actions as a "disgrace". The reality is that setting up his teams to break opponents legs is the far worser crime, and i didnt see him fining and labeling his players a disgrace when his teams would attempt to hurt opponents on a weekly basis.

Also the media/fans in england are also a massive part of this problem too. We called the actions of Pardew last week a "disgrace", "shocking" etc etc which it was. However, we critised Pardew far more than that Charlie Adam. Who once again attempted to maim an opposition player.

The real "cheats" in football are the likes of Charlie Adam and Tony Pulis. Not Suarez's or Gareth Bale's of this world.

 

[milo]

Tony Pulis is what is everything that is wrong with football imo.

He talks about fining players that dived the other day and labels their actions as a "disgrace". The reality is that setting up his teams to break opponents legs is the far worser crime, and i didnt see him fining and labeling his players a disgrace when his teams would attempt to hurt opponents on a weekly basis.

Also the media/fans in england are also a massive part of this problem too. We called the actions of Pardew last week a "disgrace", "shocking" etc etc which it was. However, we critised Pardew far more than that Charlie Adam. Who once again attempted to maim an opposition player.

The real "cheats" in football are the likes of Charlie Adam and Tony Pulis. Not Suarez's or Gareth Bale's of this world.

I don't see why it has to be a choice between violent conduct and diving. Both are a disgrace and both should be punished severely.

 

[Neymar]

I don't see why it has to be a choice between violent conduct and diving. Both are a disgrace and both should be punished severely.

I agree both should be punished. But one should definitely be punished (far) more severely. However i feel that the media/fans have got their priorities wrong regarding this matter.

The fact that their is a bigger uproar when Ashley Young does another dive than when Charlies Adam has attempted another leg break is ****ing ridiculous imo.

 

[milo]

I agree both should be punished. But one should definitely be punished (far) more severely. However i feel that the media/fans have got their priorities wrong regarding this matter.

The fact that their is a bigger uproar when Ashley Young does another dive than when Charlies Adam has attempted another leg break is ****ing ridiculous imo.

I don't agree that one gets more coverage or condemnation than the other. The only difference I can see is that diving and simulation is a more frequent occurrence.

 

[Danners9]

I don't agree that one gets more coverage or condemnation than the other. The only difference I can see is that diving and simulation is a more frequent occurrence.

..and harder to distinguish between a dive, a fall, a slip, and even a foul. Certainly referees find it difficult. They know the rules but not the game, in many cases.
..and harder to punish correctly compared to violent conduct. Player A hits/kicks Player B, obvious. Player A is running at top speed, challenge comes in from Player B, Player A goes over.. was he fouled, did he fall, 5 seconds to decide.

 

[Neymar]

I don't agree that one gets more coverage or condemnation than the other. The only difference I can see is that diving and simulation is a more frequent occurrence.

i disagree with both statements. but don't have any empirical evidence.

i just feel that whenever ashley young dives, the reaction from pundits, phone-ins, fans etc is way overboard (relative to other offenses in football). ie. when young dives, people will phone in to radio shows and declare that divers need to get banned for 3 games (to put a stop to it) etc. to me this makes no sense (when compared to other offenses/punishments in football). because you are effectively saying a dive is as bad as violent conduct.

on the other hand, when charlie adam attempted two "assaults" last week, it was just brushed off as wenger demanding special treatment from the refs again. also, when charlie adam "assaulted" paulinho earlier this year, i dont remember the vitriol against that being anywhere near as bad as it was for the two crystal palace dives last week.

 

[milo]

..and harder to distinguish between a dive, a fall, a slip, and even a foul. Certainly referees find it difficult. They know the rules but not the game, in many cases.
..and harder to punish correctly compared to violent conduct. Player A hits/kicks Player B, obvious. Player A is running at top speed, challenge comes in from Player B, Player A goes over.. was he fouled, did he fall, 5 seconds to decide.

Absolutely agree.

 

[scaramanga]

i disagree with both statements. but don't have any empirical evidence.

i just feel that whenever ashley young dives, the reaction from pundits, phone-ins, fans etc is way overboard (relative to other offenses in football). ie. when young dives, people will phone in to radio shows and declare that divers need to get banned for 3 games (to put a stop to it) etc. to me this makes no sense (when compared to other offenses/punishments in football). because you are effectively saying a dive is as bad as violent conduct.

on the other hand, when charlie adam attempted two "assaults" last week, it was just brushed off as wenger demanding special treatment from the refs again. also, when charlie adam "assaulted" paulinho earlier this year, i dont remember the vitriol against that being anywhere near as bad as it was for the two crystal palace dives last week.

With Ashley Young the intent is clear - he is intentionally trying to con the ref, cheat the opposition, ruin the game. How can you be sure a bad tackle is any more than just a bad tackle? There are some extreme examples when I've been genuinely sure that a player is intentionally trying to damage the career of another but that's what? Once every few years in the PL?