Josh Onomah

[Spur of the moment]

Attitude/mentality, IMO.

I think Poch made it clear when Onomah went on loan. He said, basically, Onomah needs to understand he deserves to be on the field.

Ability not a problem, belief is.

Clearly with Winks that isnt an issue at all.

The other thing is, Winks seized his chance with both feet last season, he was generally excellent whenever he came on, whereas Onomah struggled overall.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

The other thing is, Winks seized his chance with both feet last season, he was generally excellent whenever he came on, whereas Onomah struggled overall.

Importantly Winks played in his position CM, whereas whenever Onomah has played for us it’s always been out of position further forward. We’ve seen every single time he plays for England that he’s a way better CM than he is ACM/WF.

Poch obviously had his reasons for doing that, though I’m not sure it’s helped Onomah. I imagine the hope was he’d get more opportunities playing CM on loan than with us, however Bruce has just done the same and played him further forward.

Think he just needs to be trusted there, maybe if the managers forced in to playing him CM like Harry was forced in to partnering Hudd and Modric when everyone thought it would be a disaster.

 

[braineclipse]

Importantly Winks played in his position CM, whereas whenever Onomah has played for us it’s always been out of position further forward. We’ve seen every single time he plays for England that he’s a way better CM than he is ACM/WF.

Poch obviously had his reasons for doing that, though I’m not sure it’s helped Onomah. I imagine the hope was he’d get more opportunities playing CM on loan than with us, however Bruce has just done the same and played him further forward.

Think he just needs to be trusted there, maybe if the managers forced in to playing him CM like Harry was forced in to partnering Hudd and Modric when everyone thought it would be a disaster.

Deep central midfield roles, particularly creative roles, can be challenging to adjust to. When we signed Carrick he was 23, we all remember it took time for Modric to adjust to that role, Dembele developed into that role during his mid twenties.

Onomah needs to show both an intensity and a decision making that's at a high enough level to deserve game time in that role. Winks did that from the start. You can show that even playing in a more advanced role, like others have before. I think he's developing nicely Oki that regard and would expect him to get his game time as a result of that.

You can't go missing in that role, you can't hide, you must be good at evaluating risk and benefit, you must be tactically smart in positioning, you must consistently make good decisions and consistently deliver technically on the ball. All that in the middle of the park with players all around you.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Don’t disagree with a lot of that, but he’s done all you mention in the deep lying CM role for England and was picking up MoM for Villa in that role at the start of the season before injury. It only seems to be England that trust him there, everyone else plays him out of position and performances obviously drop off like they would with anyone.

 

[metalgear]

The other thing is, Winks seized his chance with both feet last season, he was generally excellent whenever he came on, whereas Onomah struggled overall.

winks was simply better than onomah - thats why
onomah would still struggle if we recalled him now - winks has just gotten better

 

[braineclipse]

Don’t disagree with a lot of that, but he’s done all you mention in the deep lying CM role for England and was picking up MoM for Villa in that role at the start of the season before injury. It only seems to be England that trust him there, everyone else plays him out of position and performances obviously drop off like they would with anyone.

The difference between doing that at youth international level and Premier League level is massive.

Can't say much about Bruce, his thinking or Villa's squad and why he might make the choices he makes.

 

[monkeybarry]

Importantly Winks played in his position CM, whereas whenever Onomah has played for us it’s always been out of position further forward. We’ve seen every single time he plays for England that he’s a way better CM than he is ACM/WF.

Poch obviously had his reasons for doing that, though I’m not sure it’s helped Onomah. I imagine the hope was he’d get more opportunities playing CM on loan than with us, however Bruce has just done the same and played him further forward.

Think he just needs to be trusted there, maybe if the managers forced in to playing him CM like Harry was forced in to partnering Hudd and Modric when everyone thought it would be a disaster.

Not completely true. Winks started left attacking midfield and central attacking midfield for us.
And he took charge of his chances - the opposite of Onomah.

They may be harsh on Onomah as maybe he can only play CM. But, like it not, if you want to play in a poch team you have to show belief and application no matter position he puts you in.

 

[Spur of the moment]

winks was simply better than onomah - thats why
onomah would still struggle if we recalled him now - winks has just gotten better

Winks is clearly ahead of him at the moment but Onomah's outstanding showing in the U20s WC and his impressive showings for Villa suggests to me that @nayimfromthehalfwayline is right: it's not so much a question of talent, more his ability to translate it into performances at the highest level.

It'll come.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Not completely true. Winks started left attacking midfield and central attacking midfield for us.
And he took charge of his chances - the opposite of Onomah.

They may be harsh on Onomah as maybe he can only play CM. But, like it not, if you want to play in a poch team you have to show belief and application no matter position he puts you in.

Fair enough I don’t remember those games Winks played in attacking roles, I’ve only ever seen him play CM.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Worth reiterating here that Bale, Kane and Winks were all more than a year older than Josh is now before finally establishing themselves in the first team.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Fair enough I don’t remember those games Winks played in attacking roles, I’ve only ever seen him play CM.

CM is a big place! His initial appearances were much further forward, IMO. Its only more recently he has been playing pretty deep. Either way its CM...

Worth reiterating here that Bale, Kane and Winks were all more than a year older than Josh is now before finally establishing themselves in the first team.

I honestly think its 50/50 with Onomah. It is entirely possible he comes back from his loan "a man" and steps up and shows Pochettino what he can really do. And we all know Poch will give him a shot if he deserves it.

I also believe though that if he doesnt do exactly that then Poch will let him go. I think the competition is such that there is only so long Poch will keep someone hanging around the squad. Onomah has had a couple of seasons so far and never made the step up. I genuinely believe this loan is make or break/last chance saloon for him.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

CM is a big place! His initial appearances were much further forward, IMO. Its only more recently he has been playing pretty deep. Either way its CM...

No it’s not in our system, the two deep lying players are pretty obviously deeper than the attacking players. This is where I’ve seen Winks play every game and never seen Onomah play for us (although onomah plays there for England youth teams and the start of the season at Villa).

I’m not saying Winks has never played in the same position as Onomah has for us, it’s just I’ve never seen it, maybe I missed one or two games?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ive seen him advanced, for sure. It was notable when he played deeper. Being so young and so slight (though tougher than he looks) it was a bit of a !! moment.

He didnt always play there.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

No it’s not in our system, the two deep lying players are pretty obviously deeper than the attacking players. This is where I’ve seen Winks play every game and never seen Onomah play for us (although onomah plays there for England youth teams and the start of the season at Villa).

I’m not saying Winks has never played in the same position as Onomah has for us, it’s just I’ve never seen it, maybe I missed one or two games?

Have to agree

I’ve never seen winks play anywhere other than Centre mid

I’ve never seen Onomah play centre mid for us yet though

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Ive seen him advanced, for sure. It was notable when he played deeper. Being so young and so slight (though tougher than he looks) it was a bit of a !! moment.

He didnt always play there.

Winks is an absolute gem of a player, I love him.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Winks is an absolute gem of a player, I love him.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly about Winks. From watching both players coming through, I would say that Onomah actually has the higher ceiling. That doesn't mean he will reach that ceiling, but the attributes are certainly all there for Onomah to become a brilliant central midfield player. We just need to be patient with him and let him develop gradually.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Based upon what we have seen of either in first team football Ive no idea how you can reach that conclusion.

Winks has been excellent, and IMO has a long way to go before he finds his ceiling.

Onomah? meh. He has shown very little to suggest to me he has a particularly high ceiling at all.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Based upon what we have seen of either in first team football Ive no idea how you can reach that conclusion.

Winks has been excellent, and IMO has a long way to go before he finds his ceiling.

Onomah? meh. He has shown very little to suggest to me he has a particularly high ceiling at all.

Well that's well and truly putting it on the line. Did you watch him in the Under 20s World Cup? It'll be interesting to come back to this post in a year or two's time to see who's turned out to be right.

I'm 100% with @Finney Is Back.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Im not saying he wont come good. Id certainly love it if he did.

Simply saying, based on what he has done in the team, I dont understand how anyone could possibly put him as having more potential than Winks.

Firstly, because Winks has been excellent. Not "excellent for a kid coming in", but "excellent". He has come in and done a cracking job at first team level and is deservedly starting games for us.

Secondly, because Onomah has never come close to that level of performance. Not once. Not even, to my eye, shown hints that it is there.

So its a pretty big claim to state he has a higher ceiling, imo.

Im a huge fan of Winks, I think he is genuine class - so believe me, if you and Finney are right and Onomah can surpass him...

... well, how fudging amazing would that be?

 

[the dza]

We'll know a bit more about him when he's had the whole season at Villa. Hopefully he will do well enough to at least get a loan to a Premier League team next season.