Johan Lange - Sporting Director

[Bishop]

I think Frank carries a large part of this issue with Lange. He was not interested in that sort of player. So while everyone was saying he 'deserved time', my point was 'time for what? To perfect a style of football which relies in crosses, wide play and set-pieces?

As for Romero, no-one disagreed that I can see. I did consistently point out he was one of only passers we had (Porro being the other) and yes, for the I like to see football played that is shiitte. If we had not leant on Romero for that, perhaps he and us would've had a better season.

Lange has to go of course...

Not to go over old ground but I don't know if I believe Frank had no interest in those players. He played them at Brentford (Nordgaard, Damsgaard). It makes more sense to me that he didn't believe he had those players here (and I agree!).

Again going over old ground and not trying to restart that debate but it's the same genesis of the issues I had with Ange and him not adapting to the player qualities he actually had. Without Kulu and Maddison we just don't have much quality in passing terms re the midfield. People will mention Bentancur, Gray, Bissouma, Palhinha, Gallagher, Sarr and Bergvall and try to argue for their suitability but honestly these guys are all average at best passers and quite a few are cloggers and not one of them is a passing specialist or even close to be one. I would absolutely rather have Xhaka then any one of them.

Where I agree with you is he should have made a much bigger push to getting that passing in midfield. Theres a part that think maybe that was his intention for Gibbs-White, although I'm not sure if that's really his profile. I would have done .pre with Simmons, like playing him centrally from the off and trying to work on the semi promising combinations we saw with him, Odobert and Muani. Anyway it is what is now but like with Levy, the squad composition has been pretty awful and I don't understand how they can do willfully skip the passing midfielder player profile. It's like one of the most basic tenants of a "good" football team.

 

[fernadez]

Find it a bit of a stretch to blame Frank. The last person we had who could play forwards from midfield was Hojberg. And that is the point in itself. We had Dembele who negated the need cause he could break the lines with the ball at feet and the give it to who needed it. Since then there has been nobody who can take it off the defence and play it through the thirds.

To contiunally buy midfielders who can't 'pass' is bonkers. And I don't include Maddison and Kulu cause there should be someone behind them who can find them where they cause danger.

The stats show that football has had a massive shift in centre backs having most of the ball and midfielders doing nothing but sprints. That's all good if it works for your team. Hasn't worked in ours for years. Nothing has annoyed me more than the signing of Gallagher. I would have probably experimented with playing Romero in midfield and having Danso and VDV at the back, just to have someone who can play a forward pass.

 

[Bishop]

Find it a bit of a stretch to blame Frank. The last person we had who could play forwards from midfield was Hojberg. And that is the point in itself. We had Dembele who negated the need cause he could break the lines with the ball at feet and the give it to who needed it. Since then there has been nobody who can take it off the defence and play it through the thirds.

To contiunally buy midfielders who can't 'pass' is bonkers. And I don't include Maddison and Kulu cause there should be someone behind them who can find them where they cause danger.

The stats show that football has had a massive shift in centre backs having most of the ball and midfielders doing nothing but sprints. That's all good if it works for your team. Hasn't worked in ours for years. Nothing has annoyed me more than the signing of Gallagher. I would have probably experimented with playing Romero in midfield and having Danso and VDV at the back, just to have someone who can play a forward pass.

Again, we keep seeing this narrative that suggests we didn't play mostly wide last season when we damn well know that was the case. There was even the arguments when it wasn't working that the Son wasn't following the unguided low crosses that were consistently flung across the box.

The biggest mistake some of this fan base is making us thinking these problems just suddenly appeared at the start of the is season. This has been a death by a thousand cuts, year after year.

 

[thfcsteff]

Not to go over old ground but I don't know if I believe Frank had no interest in those players. He played them at Brentford (Nordgaard, Damsgaard). It makes more sense to me that he didn't believe he had those players here (and I agree!).

Norgaard is a DM/CB. Frank relied on Romero to be his Norgaard. IF he was so reliant on that type of passer, he should've gone all in for Norgaard as a squad member. As for Damsgaard, it took Frank nearly two seaons (if memory serves me) before he had Damsgaard playing at his best levels - which is to say it took him a long time to unleash the risk of a player like that in flow with the rest of his set-up. The people I hear things from occasionally told me very early in the summer as he had arrived that we had both Simons and Eze on a list of initial targets and he said no to both, preferring MGW. We blew that. We should've had a plan B for that type of player of course. So yes, I remain pretty convinced he was not especially interested in that type of player.

Again going over old ground and not trying to restart that debate but it's the same genesis of the issues I had with Ange and him not adapting to the player qualities he actually had. Without Kulu and Maddison we just don't have much quality in passing terms re the midfield. People will mention Bentancur, Gray, Bissouma, Palhinha, Gallagher, Sarr and Bergvall and try to argue for their suitability but honestly these guys are all average at best passers and quite a few are cloggers and not one of them is a passing specialist or even close to be one. I would absolutely rather have Xhaka then any one of them.

I would've liked a Xhaka-like player with that experience too.

Where I agree with you is he should have made a much bigger push to getting that passing in midfield. Theres a part that think maybe that was his intention for Gibbs-White, although I'm not sure if that's really his profile. I would have done .pre with Simmons, like playing him centrally from the off and trying to work on the semi promising combinations we saw with him, Odobert and Muani. Anyway it is what is now but like with Levy, the squad composition has been pretty awful and I don't understand how they can do willfully skip the passing midfielder player profile. It's like one of the most basic tenants of a "good" football team.

I agree, and continually seeing it not be a part of Frank (and Lange's) scope was aggravating and diminished my patience with him rapidly, as I felt I was being asked to be patient to see a style of football I don't believe in come to some sort of fruition.

 

[thfcsteff]

Find it a bit of a stretch to blame Frank. The last person we had who could play forwards from midfield was Hojberg. And that is the point in itself. We had Dembele who negated the need cause he could break the lines with the ball at feet and the give it to who needed it. Since then there has been nobody who can take it off the defence and play it through the thirds.

To contiunally buy midfielders who can't 'pass' is bonkers. And I don't include Maddison and Kulu cause there should be someone behind them who can find them where they cause danger.

The stats show that football has had a massive shift in centre backs having most of the ball and midfielders doing nothing but sprints. That's all good if it works for your team. Hasn't worked in ours for years. Nothing has annoyed me more than the signing of Gallagher. I would have probably experimented with playing Romero in midfield and having Danso and VDV at the back, just to have someone who can play a forward pass.

Agree other than I do hold Frank (and Lange) responsible for a lot of this season, whilst yes, we have signed 'to modern football profile' a lot under Lange (my main issue with date-driven recruitment is that it looks to trends and I agree with your observations). Gallagher? He might end up being the 'statement' of our season; not a good one.

 

[thfcsteff]

Again, we keep seeing this narrative that suggests we didn't play mostly wide last season when we damn well know that was the case. There was even the arguments when it wasn't working that the Son wasn't following the unguided low crosses that were consistently flung across the box.

The biggest mistake some of this fan base is making us thinking these problems just suddenly appeared at the start of the is season. This has been a death by a thousand cuts, year after year.

Nobody is being that binary.
At the same time, it is a massive mistake to not see that the 'project' hatched by Frank and the Tweedle Twins has been an accelerated disaster to where we're at, and it remains a massive mistake that some of our supporters seem to have no issue with the fact we actually won something in adversity and rather than invest in that nucleus of energy and hope, essentially burnt it to the ground and announced the need for a new direction/build without actually employing any sign that said plan/build was based on something which was going to improve us, either tactically or personnel-wise.

 

[Lemonade Money]

You know we're fuct when people are saying we should've signed Henderson or Xhaka.

 

[thfcsteff]

You know we're fuct when people are saying we should've signed Henderson or Xhaka.

Ahhhhh...a true dialectic here because yes we should've, and yes, you are also absolutely right!!!

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

Nobody is being that binary.
At the same time, it is a massive mistake to not see that the 'project' hatched by Frank and the Tweedle Twins has been an accelerated disaster to where we're at, and it remains a massive mistake that some of our supporters seem to have no issue with the fact we actually won something in adversity and rather than invest in that nucleus of energy and hope, essentially burnt it to the ground and announced the need for a new direction/build without actually employing any sign that said plan/build was based on something which was going to improve us, either tactically or personnel-wise.

I will never get it. It’s the thing that makes me angriest of all. Ok you’ve made the decision to sack Ange. Ok the trophy isn’t going to compensate for 17th in the league. Fine. Ignore everything else, the decision is made.

What on earth did they think they were building towards? What was this superior culture? What was the better playing style? For an obvious improvement, proven at our level and where we want to get to, I’d get it. But Frank had none of it.

It really seems like they all just bought into this data driven point, Lange in the profile of signings and Frank in his style of play. His heavy focus on XG. His belief that allowing good shots from outside the box is preferable to the alternative. When all of this served to reduce the time our good players would spend in controlled possession in the opposition half, and create more opportunities for the elite footballers we would face and hope to compete with to pick their spots.

The whole thing is completely mad. A generational headloss by the club to go so firmly in one direction, at so obviously the wrong time, with the completely wrong steward.

 

[Bishop]

You know we're fuct when people are saying we should've signed Henderson or Xhaka.

Xhaka is a good player, forget his Arsenal connections, profile wise he's the type of player we desperately miss in midfield.

 

[billyiddo]

Xhaka is a good player, forget his Arsenal connections, profile wise he's the type of player we desperately miss in midfield.

He seemed to be pretty poor at Arsenal for most of his time but then he really picked up in his last couple of seasons. Their central midfield of Partey (spits) and Xhaka was better than their current CM imv

 

[Bedfordspurs]

He seemed to be pretty poor at Arsenal for most of his time but then he really picked up in his last couple of seasons. Their central midfield of Partey (spits) and Xhaka was better than their current CM imv

Both good players
Xhaka has got better I agree
Partey was always decent but their current midfield is miles better imo

 

[Muttley]

He seemed to be pretty poor at Arsenal for most of his time but then he really picked up in his last couple of seasons. Their central midfield of Partey (spits) and Xhaka was better than their current CM imv

Xhaka is perfect for modern refereeing. He has built his career on finding the line he shouldn't cross and then crossing it. If he put on our colours he'd barely stay on the pitch. He'd get away with none of those shenanigans. Just ask our captain.

The better question is why we're asking for a Xhaka type player when we got a Palhinha type player. Fans were raving about him early season. Saying he was the missing link. What happened?

 

[glasgowspur]

I will never get it. It’s the thing that makes me angriest of all. Ok you’ve made the decision to sack Ange. Ok the trophy isn’t going to compensate for 17th in the league. Fine. Ignore everything else, the decision is made.

What on earth did they think they were building towards? What was this superior culture? What was the better playing style? For an obvious improvement, proven at our level and where we want to get to, I’d get it. But Frank had none of it.

It really seems like they all just bought into this data driven point, Lange in the profile of signings and Frank in his style of play. His heavy focus on XG. His belief that allowing good shots from outside the box is preferable to the alternative. When all of this served to reduce the time our good players would spend in controlled possession in the opposition half, and create more opportunities for the elite footballers we would face and hope to compete with to pick their spots.

The whole thing is completely mad. A generational headloss by the club to go so firmly in one direction, at so obviously the wrong time, with the completely wrong steward.

If as has been suggested elsewhere our decisions have been data driven and that data has been crunched to produce Frank who levy unveiled as a manager to "have us challenging on multiple fronts", then it's fair to that all involved should be forced to eat said data as it is fed from an old dot matrix printer before being thrown the skywalk.
The data is junk, who ever interpreted the data is fool and whoever signed this off is fudging macaron.
As for the person that is overseeing it and did not spot four months ago how this is heading, that's just dumb ass of epic proportions

 

[Bishop]

Xhaka is perfect for modern refereeing. He has built his career on finding the line he shouldn't cross and then crossing it. If he put on our colours he'd barely stay on the pitch. He'd get away with none of those shenanigans. Just ask our captain.

The better question is why we're asking for a Xhaka type player when we got a Palhinha type player. Fans were raving about him early season. Saying he was the missing link. What happened?

I want a passer more than a destroyer and Xhaka is a ccontroller. A hybrid of the two (Xhaka) is more my flavour. It's why if we survive I'd love to sign João Gomes, he's another hybrid DM/deep line quality passer and controller.

Fans got excited because we love a bit of blood and thunder. It's why you see players getting praised here for running around but without actual quality (Tel).

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

If as has been suggested elsewhere our decisions have been data driven and that data has been crunched to produce Frank who levy unveiled as a manager to "have us challenging on multiple fronts", then it's fair to that all involved should be forced to eat said data as it is fed from an old dot matrix printer before being thrown the skywalk.
The data is junk, who ever interpreted the data is fool and whoever signed this off is fudging macaron.
As for the person that is overseeing it and did not spot four months ago how this is heading, that's just dumb ass of epic proportions

Completely agreed.

And what makes it more maddening is you know Lange and Vinai were sitting there thinking ‘it’s going to turn soon, the data says so. We can’t keep being this unlucky.’. All the while the confidence just completely drains from the players in front of everyone else’s eyes.