James Maddison

[Raziel]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1673594619366350851

 

[AdamB]

In the last financials their wages were 85% of turnover at £182m/£214m. Not just tv revenue but also from that they will lose some sponsorship money. But also europa league money. So they are in a financial mess. Maddison won't be enough i don't think. Although would help. (This is for 21/22 season, 22/23 hasn't been released yet).

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Bit of a daft table - its titled wage to turnover ratio, yet they order it by revenue rather than wage to turnover! disguises the key message completely

 

[Lilbaz]

Bit of a daft table - its titled wage to turnover ratio, yet they order it by revenue rather than wage to turnover! disguises the key message completely

Limited options since swiss ramble now makes you have to pay a subscription to read his stuff. Interested but not that much.

 

[DeanoAustin]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1673594619366350851

Will be absolutely delighted with this one if it happens. He's what we need and I could see him being a massive success here.

Bit of a daft table - its titled wage to turnover ratio, yet they order it by revenue rather than wage to turnover! disguises the key message completely

It's a ridiculously laid out table but does really highlight some very valid criticism of Levy - brilliant businessman, too fiscally cautious from a football perspective. He no doubt wants success but he isn't prepared to risk enough to get it.

 

[DaveT316]

Will be absolutely delighted with this one if it happens. He's what we need and I could see him being a massive success here.



It's a ridiculously laid out table but does really highlight some very valid criticism of Levy - brilliant businessman, too fiscally cautious from a football perspective. He no doubt wants success but he isn't prepared to risk enough to get it.

Yep, goals from midfield will be very welcome. We’ve not had any since Eriksen really, who probably played the position most closely resembled the one Maddison will likely be taking up for us.

 

[Lilbaz]

Will be absolutely delighted with this one if it happens. He's what we need and I could see him being a massive success here.



It's a ridiculously laid out table but does really highlight some very valid criticism of Levy - brilliant businessman, too fiscally cautious from a football perspective. He no doubt wants success but he isn't prepared to risk enough to get it.

We have the biggest debt in world football and are self sufficient (other than the £150m made available for enic). How much risk do you want?

 

[DeanoAustin]

We have the biggest debt in world football and are self sufficient (other than the £150m made available for enic). How much risk do you want?

We are perfectly capable of servicing that debt. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing if you can afford it which we can.

Our wages to turnover has been consistently 10%-40% below every other club in the league since I've seen these figures published. It limits our ability to attract top players because, transfer fee wise, we've been well up there since the stadium was built.

 

[DubSpur]

We are perfectly capable of servicing that debt. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing if you can afford it which we can.

Our wages to turnover has been consistently 10%-40% below every other club in the league since I've seen these figures published. It limits our ability to attract top players because, transfer fee wise, we've been well up there since the stadium was built.

The money has been invested in infrastructure in order to increase revenue, it's not like nothing has been done with it. If that hadn't been done our revenue would be much less. The 47% of our revenue now is bigger than say 70% of what our revenue would be without that growth in revenue.
With the new FFP rules others will now have to come back towards us or potentially face bans from Europe. PSG are changing their model and getting rid of "superstars" in order to get their wages down.

 

[DeanoAustin]

The money has been invested in infrastructure in order to increase revenue, it's not like nothing has been done with it. If that hadn't been done our revenue would be much less. The 47% of our revenue now is bigger than say 70% of what our revenue would be without that growth in revenue.
With the new FFP rules others will now have to come back towards us or potentially face bans from Europe. PSG are changing their model and getting rid of "superstars" in order to get their wages down.

Our revenue, based on that table is £443m. Our wages to revenue % is 47%.
United's revenue is £583m. W2R % is 66%.
Liverpool's revenue is £594m. W2R is 62%.
City's revenue is £619m. W2R is 57%.
Woolwich's revenue is £367m. W2R is 58%.
Chelsea's revenue is £481m. W2R is 71%.

Even Woolwich, with ~75m less in revenue than us, spend more on wages in absolute terms (by £5m). I'm sure there is nuance to these numbers if I had the time to look into them. Fact remains, we spend substantially less than every other club in the league on wages in % terms and substantially less than our rivals in absolute terms. It's very much indicative of a very conservative policy. That's good for business but not good for competitiveness. I'm not expecting us to go all Everton and spend 96% of revenue on wages, that's bonkers stuff. Even Chelsea I would see as bordering on reckless. But to be 10% behind the next lowest spenders on wages (and I suspect they're paying quite a bit off the books) is a problem from a sporting perspective.

 

[Lilbaz]

We are perfectly capable of servicing that debt. Debt isn't necessarily a bad thing if you can afford it which we can.

Our wages to turnover has been consistently 10%-40% below every other club in the league since I've seen these figures published. It limits our ability to attract top players because, transfer fee wise, we've been well up there since the stadium was built.

All of our revenue is put back into the club. So where do we get the extra money to increase the wages from? Less amortisation (transfer fees)?

 

[AdamB]

All of our revenue is put back into the club. So where do we get the extra money to increase the wages from? Less amortisation (transfer fees)?

Would need to look at our cashflow statement but a large portion would go on interest rates, continual investment in infrastructure etc

 

[Lilbaz]

Would need to look at our cashflow statement but a large portion would go on interest rates, continual investment in infrastructure etc

In the next couple of years all clubs in europe will have to have wages+amortisation+agents fees be lower than 70% of turnover. The prem is still to agree with the efl but it will be similar for all clubs in england and wales.

 

[DubSpur]

Our revenue, based on that table is £443m. Our wages to revenue % is 47%.
United's revenue is £583m. W2R % is 66%.
Liverpool's revenue is £594m. W2R is 62%.
City's revenue is £619m. W2R is 57%.
Woolwich's revenue is £367m. W2R is 58%.
Chelsea's revenue is £481m. W2R is 71%.

Even Woolwich, with ~75m less in revenue than us, spend more on wages in absolute terms (by £5m). I'm sure there is nuance to these numbers if I had the time to look into them. Fact remains, we spend substantially less than every other club in the league on wages in % terms and substantially less than our rivals in absolute terms. It's very much indicative of a very conservative policy. That's good for business but not good for competitiveness. I'm not expecting us to go all Everton and spend 96% of revenue on wages, that's bonkers stuff. Even Chelsea I would see as bordering on reckless. But to be 10% behind the next lowest spenders on wages (and I suspect they're paying quite a bit off the books) is a problem from a sporting perspective.

Our revenue is £443m (it will drop next year without European football), but without the investment in the infrastructure it would be a lot less than that. How were we able to invest? By keeping wages at a level that left us with money to invest.

 

[DeanoAustin]

All of our revenue is put back into the club. So where do we get the extra money to increase the wages from? Less amortisation (transfer fees)?

Would need to look at our cashflow statement but a large portion would go on interest rates, continual investment in infrastructure etc

A quick glance at the cash flow statement says we had £226.5m in cash on the balance sheet as of 30th June 2022 - up ~80m from the same period in 2021. That's a tidy sum.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Our revenue is £443m (it will drop next year without European football), but without the investment in the infrastructure it would be a lot less than that. How were we able to invest? By keeping wages at a level that left us with money to invest.

We are fiscally cautious. I'm not saying that's absolutely wrong. What Levy has done at our club over 20 years is very, very impressive. Brought us from mid table to top end, built an incredible stadium and training ground. He can be very proud of his achievements and, I've said this before, I'd build a statue of him for what he's done for the area.

So I'm not trying to condemn the guy - I'm far from his harshest critic. But if we want to push on and be competitive, we have to take a few more risks and wages is one area that stands out like a sore thumb in terms of scope for more spending.

Levy's harshest critics would say that he just cares about money and not success. That's far too simplistic. He wants success for us. He's just does not seem willing to do it at a cost that would push our wages to turnover to a level in line with the rest of the league. If that is the case then, in my view, he's brought us as far as he can.

 

[DubSpur]

We are fiscally cautious. I'm not saying that's absolutely wrong. What Levy has done at our club over 20 years is very, very impressive. Brought us from mid table to top end, built an incredible stadium and training ground. He can be very proud of his achievements and, I've said this before, I'd build a statue of him for what he's done for the area.

So I'm not trying to condemn the guy - I'm far from his harshest critic. But if we want to push on and be competitive, we have to take a few more risks and wages is one area that stands out like a sore thumb in terms of scope for more spending.

Levy's harshest critics would say that he just cares about money and not success. That's far too simplistic. He wants success for us. He's just does not seem willing to do it at a cost that would push our wages to turnover to a level in line with the rest of the league. If that is the case then, in my view, he's brought us as far as he can.

We're probably now at the stage that we could loosen the strings a bit on wages, but that is down to the previous work. First the squad needs to be overhauled (again), once that is done then hopefully we'll see a bit of a shift towards buying young players with potential with one or two top quality players that demand higher wages.
Also, once the new version of FFP kicks in other clubs will be forced to come closer to our wage level anyway.

 

[DeanoAustin]

We're probably now at the stage that we could loosen the strings a bit on wages, but that is down to the previous work. First the squad needs to be overhauled (again), once that is done then hopefully we'll see a bit of a shift towards buying young players with potential with one or two top quality players that demand higher wages.
Also, once the new version of FFP kicks in other clubs will be forced to come closer to our wage level anyway.

To be honest, haven't looked at the new FFP rules because I've little faith in clubs to adhere to them so if those other clubs do come back to us, I may have to eat my words a bit and laud Levy for having the vision to keep us very much sustainable.

I do suspect we'll still lag behind other clubs though.

 

[Lilbaz]

A quick glance at the cash flow statement says we had £226.5m in cash on the balance sheet as of 30th June 2022 - up ~80m from the same period in 2021. That's a tidy sum.

We also had similar amount as transfer debt. We also spent money on players.

As i said we are going to be roughly in line with most other clubs over the next 2 years. Difference being most others will be cutting their spending.

 

[Lilbaz]

We're probably now at the stage that we could loosen the strings a bit on wages, but that is down to the previous work. First the squad needs to be overhauled (again), once that is done then hopefully we'll see a bit of a shift towards buying young players with potential with one or two top quality players that demand higher wages.
Also, once the new version of FFP kicks in other clubs will be forced to come closer to our wage level anyway.

The new version began to kick in in jan. At 90%. Be 80% next year, then 70% onwards.

 

[DubSpur]

To be honest, haven't looked at the new FFP rules because I've little faith in clubs to adhere to them so if those other clubs do come back to us, I may have to eat my words a bit and laud Levy for having the vision to keep us very much sustainable.

I do suspect we'll still lag behind other clubs though.

Yup, we'll have plenty of room to increase our wages still. Saudi Sportswashing Machine is probably the one that it'll have most impact on until they get their dodgy revenues going.