I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[Jurgen the German]

Both still 24 years old. Plenty of reasons to think that we can "upgrade" by them just getting better at Spurs. Looking to urgently upgrade on two players who were important first team players when we got 3rd last season seems like a great way to fail imo. Looking for that special upgrade purchase repeatedly proves expensive with a rather low hit rate.

We miss Lamela quite a lot for me. Particularly as we're lacking creativity in central/deep midfield and Lamela is one who actually tries to up our passing tempo rather than slow it down. Also key to our pressing in a lot of games and his intensity has been missed in a lot of games.

Son and Alli score more goals, but they play a rather different role in our team.

Just because we finished 3rd doesn't mean we should necessarily not look to upgrade in certain positions and just stick with the same 11 players who played the majority of the games. Do you not think the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, United and Emirates Marketing Project struggling contributed to our 3rd place finish? I look at our team and I don't see a lot of issues at the back or in defensive midfield. Obviously Janssen has struggled but his signing shows we at least tried to address the issue of relying on Kane. The main area I believe needs to be strengthened is the attacking trio behind Kane.

Eriksen and Lamela are both in their 4th season at Spurs. Lamela for me still doesn't produce enough in terms of end product, I'm talking goals most importantly. His decision making whilst improved still leaves a lot to be desired. Everyone keeps mentioning his pressing which is arugably his biggest asset, we can't keep him in the side for that reason alone.

When it comes to Eriksen, I'm a big fan but there's just something missing that is stopping him from reaching that level of Ozil, Coutinho or even Payet for example. Can't put my finger on what it is exactly, but something is missing and I don't think it's a lack of talent.

All of the midfielders need to chip in with goals. I realise you are a very patient man and are happy to give players many years before they produce at a high enough level, but how long do you give them?

 

[billyiddo]

You upgrade the weakest players, not the strongest - Lamela Eriksen Alli was our first choice attacking three last season, Son just behind them and then Townsend N'jie at the bottom. It's Townsend and N'jie that had to be upgraded on otherwise we'd continue to have a big drop in quality from first eleven to reserve. Going forward if neither Sissoko nor N'koudou can oust any of the four in front of them then it is those that will need to be upgraded on.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You upgrade the weakest players, not the strongest - Lamela Eriksen Alli was our first choice attacking three last season, Son just behind them and then Townsend N'jie at the bottom. It's Townsend and N'jie that had to be upgraded on otherwise we'd continue to have a big drop in quality from first eleven to reserve. Going forward if neither Sissoko nor N'koudou can oust any of the four in front of them then it is those that will need to be upgraded on.

I don't agree with that. What if both Lamela/Eriksen/Alli AND their reserves struggle for form?

 

[billyiddo]

I don't agree with that. What if both Lamela/Eriksen/Alli AND their reserves struggle for form?

Why would that change anything?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Why would that change anything?

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but are you saying your solution if any Eriksen or Lamela for example struggle for form is drop them and play their backups, but only replace the backups should they struggle as well?

 

[billyiddo]

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but are you saying your solution if any Eriksen or Lamela for example struggle for form is drop them and play their backups, but only replace the backups should they struggle as well?

If the back up players don't prove themselves to be the better option why would you want to keep them over the player ahead of them? improve the backups in the hope that they provide better competition for the first team and/or potentially become the first choice.

 

[Modric THFC]

I don't understand how you have arrived at that conclusion - there has been one summer window since we signed Alderweireld, in which we bought what appears to be a starting eleven player, Wanyama. We have also spent just under 50m on Sissoko and Janssen to compete for the first team this window as well as 25m on Son at the back end of last summers window.

We finished 3rd last season don't forget - as far as I'm aware you don't generally need to make wholesale changes to your first eleven when you're off the back of a good season with no players looking to leave and all yet to hit their peak years.

Some of the transfers may not yet have proven their worth but I'm not sure how you can point towards our activity and say we won't be looking to improve our team in the coming windows as that's totally at odds with what we have been doing.

Because of our first 11 Lloris; Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Walker; Dier, Dembele; Lamela, Alli, Eriksen; Kane; 8 of them predate Poch arriving here. Two were bought as backup/young prospects (Dier + Alli). 1 was bought to slot straight into the first team (Alderweireld)

Since Levy was widely criticised over 'wasting' the Bale money, we've been hedging our bets in the transfer market. Until Poch demanded he sign Wanyama.

Instead of going out and getting a better player than Eriksen, we go out and get one to replace Chadli or Townsend.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Because of our first 11 Lloris; Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Walker; Dier, Dembele; Lamela, Alli, Eriksen; Kane; 8 of them predate Poch arriving here. Two were bought as backup/young prospects (Dier + Alli). 1 was bought to slot straight into the first team (Alderweireld)

Since Levy was widely criticised over 'wasting' the Bale money, we've been hedging our bets in the transfer market. Until Poch demanded he sign Wanyama.

Instead of going out and getting a better player than Eriksen, we go out and get one to replace Chadli or Townsend.

I dont think Levy really cares if anyone thinks he's a waster. Out of the Bale money (a jackpot windfall) what is he £20-25M down?? Not hard earned cash in this instance.

We're now back to careful purchases within budget restrictions. Hardly demanding much from Levy for Wanyama at the price.

I agree, I think we may have to look for someone to do what we want Eriksen to do, but actually do it more reguarly.

Question is though, are you saying we would move Eriksen on to finance his replacement as Chadli/Andros pretty much added up to Sissoko.??

 

[billyiddo]

Because of our first 11 Lloris; Walker, Alderweireld, Vertonghen, Walker; Dier, Dembele; Lamela, Alli, Eriksen; Kane; 8 of them predate Poch arriving here. Two were bought as backup/young prospects (Dier + Alli). 1 was bought to slot straight into the first team (Alderweireld)

Since Levy was widely criticised over 'wasting' the Bale money, we've been hedging our bets in the transfer market. Until Poch demanded he sign Wanyama.

Instead of going out and getting a better player than Eriksen, we go out and get one to replace Chadli or Townsend.

Eriksen played well last season - why would we go out and get a player to replace him? Actually our whole starting eleven played well - hence us finishing 3rd with the best attack/defense stats, why would we have been looking to replace any of them? almost everyone to a man was concerned with our squad options at the end of the season and the drop off in quality once you got past the starting positions - we tried to rectify that in the summer by bringing in replacements for those not deemed good enough.

 

[braineclipse]

Just because we finished 3rd doesn't mean we should necessarily not look to upgrade in certain positions and just stick with the same 11 players who played the majority of the games. Do you not think the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, United and Emirates Marketing Project struggling contributed to our 3rd place finish? I look at our team and I don't see a lot of issues at the back or in defensive midfield. Obviously Janssen has struggled but his signing shows we at least tried to address the issue of relying on Kane. The main area I believe needs to be strengthened is the attacking trio behind Kane.

Eriksen and Lamela are both in their 4th season at Spurs. Lamela for me still doesn't produce enough in terms of end product, I'm talking goals most importantly. His decision making whilst improved still leaves a lot to be desired. Everyone keeps mentioning his pressing which is arugably his biggest asset, we can't keep him in the side for that reason alone.

When it comes to Eriksen, I'm a big fan but there's just something missing that is stopping him from reaching that level of Ozil, Coutinho or even Payet for example. Can't put my finger on what it is exactly, but something is missing and I don't think it's a lack of talent.

All of the midfielders need to chip in with goals. I realise you are a very patient man and are happy to give players many years before they produce at a high enough level, but how long do you give them?

Has anyone ever in the history of the 377 page often intense Lamela discussion on this site ever argued that he should stay in the team for his pressing alone?

We signed Son last season, we signed Nkoudou and Sissoko this season, we're starting to blood Onomah. These things are all being done to strengthen the trio behind Kane. Though not all of it has been successful so far.

24 year olds that are already delivering at a level that has us competing for our realistic aims I will have a lot of patience with. If we were mid-table I would understand not having patience, but when we're 5th after a record high 3rd last season I really don't get what the problem is.

It might be that we have very different views on what Lamela does and doesn't do. For me his absence is one of the reasons we've struggled going forward. Even if he "doesn't score enough" he ups our passing tempo and that makes it more likely other players score - for me at least. Right now we sorely miss that with all other players in our "front 6" being the kind of player that likes to take the extra touch rather than up our tempo. Bar Winks, but how much trust can we put in him?

Interesting examples by the way. Ozil, now 28 had his first properly good season in the PL last year after two years at Arsenal. Payet, now 29, first came into the PL as a 28 year old. Coutinho is the exception I suppose, same age as Lamela and Eriksen. A fantastic purchase by Liverpool by any standard, would have been great if it was us instead. But those aren't easy to make and no clubs manage to make them with any real consistency.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Has anyone ever in the history of the 377 page often intense Lamela discussion on this site ever argued that he should stay in the team for his pressing alone?

We signed Son last season, we signed Nkoudou and Sissoko this season, we're starting to blood Onomah. These things are all being done to strengthen the trio behind Kane. Though not all of it has been successful so far.

24 year olds that are already delivering at a level that has us competing for our realistic aims I will have a lot of patience with. If we were mid-table I would understand not having patience, but when we're 5th after a record high 3rd last season I really don't get what the problem is.

It might be that we have very different views on what Lamela does and doesn't do. For me his absence is one of the reasons we've struggled going forward. Even if he "doesn't score enough" he ups our passing tempo and that makes it more likely other players score - for me at least. Right now we sorely miss that with all other players in our "front 6" being the kind of player that likes to take the extra touch rather than up our tempo. Bar Winks, but how much trust can we put in him?

People often say he sets the tempo for our pressing and we miss him for that reason even when he's not delivering much end product. I am not arguing he doesn't offer an important role in terms of pressing, but his overall play for me is still lacking.

Our main problem this season has been scoring goals. We haven't scored enough clearly, but I also think we don't create enough for Kane/Janssen. Look at how many chances Giroud misses for scum for example. We do create opportunities but not enough gilt edged chances IMO. When I say "we need to replace Eriksen and Lamela", perhaps it should have been worded a bit better but I see them as our two main creative players (Alli offers more in terms of goals but isn't what I would call creative at this stage in his career) but they are not at the level of Ozil or Coutinho to name two. They have also been at the club far longer than the likes of Nkoudou and Sissoko. I think we need that x factor player in midfield. Wages are a problem until we move to the new WHL but I don't think they can't be upgraded on.

Again, just because you had a great season doesn't mean there aren't areas that need to be improved on. Every club looks to strengthen their squad (or should do), no matter where they finish.

 

[Jurgen the German]

If the back up players don't prove themselves to be the better option why would you want to keep them over the player ahead of them? improve the backups in the hope that they provide better competition for the first team and/or potentially become the first choice.

As Modric said, Alderweireld was signed with the view to pretty much slot in the first 11, not to be a backup to Fazio/Chiriches that eventually replaced them. I'm not saying we should immediately sell Eriksen or Lamela, but IMO we need a signing of the Alderweireld level, not a player to come in and maybe eventually take their place.

 

[braineclipse]

People often say he sets the tempo for our pressing and we miss him for that reason even when he's not delivering much end product. I am not arguing he doesn't offer an important role in terms of pressing, but his overall play for me is still lacking.

Our main problem this season has been scoring goals. We haven't scored enough clearly, but I also think we don't create enough for Kane/Janssen. Look at how many chances Giroud misses for scum for example. We do create opportunities but not enough gilt edged chances IMO. When I say "we need to replace Eriksen and Lamela", perhaps it should have been worded a bit better but I see them as our two main creative players (Alli offers more in terms of goals but isn't what I would call creative at this stage in his career) but they are not at the level of Ozil or Coutinho to name two. They have also been at the club far longer than the likes of Nkoudou and Sissoko. I think we need that x factor player in midfield. Wages are a problem until we move to the new WHL but I don't think they can't be upgraded on.

Again, just because you had a great season doesn't mean there aren't areas that need to be improved on. Unless you are happy with 3rd-5th? Every club looks to strengthen their squad (or should do), no matter where they finish.

Just because people say he's important for his pressing doesn't mean they're saying he should be in the team for that alone.

I'm saying a more realistic way to strengthen is to allow the very good, young, clearly talented players we already have go through some ups and downs (Lamela hasn't even been that much down this season, just injured) and gradually keep getting better as we go. I think that's the better way to strengthen, not that we shouldn't look to get better (another argument no one seems to be making).

With Lamela, Alli and Eriksen at the level they were last season I thought it fairly realistic path to improvement to see Son step it up this season, or for a young talent like Nkoudou to get better over 1-2 seasons, or for one of our youngsters to step it up. Or for Lamela, Alli or Eriksen to step it up another level. This is how we ended up with Carrick, Modric, Bale, Kane, Walker and Rose... I think it's much more realistic to replicate that than to join the clubs looking to buy their way to the top short term. We've seen at other clubs the race to sign the "slightly better than X" player and where it leads. Huge money spent, huge wages and only once in a while an actual improvement. We have between half and two thirds of the overall budgets of City, United, Chelsea and Arsenal. We have less money than Liverpool. If we try to go toe to toe with them on how to get better I think we will most likely fail, because they can outspend us every step of the way.

 

[billyiddo]

As Modric said, Alderweireld was signed with the view to pretty much slot in the first 11, not to be a backup to Fazio/Chiriches that eventually replaced them. I'm not saying we should immediately sell Eriksen or Lamela, but IMO we need a signing of the Alderweireld level, not a player to come in and maybe eventually take their place.

Chiriches was a back up defender and Fazio never played for us again after that window despite still being on our books so was never really considered first choice by Poch - we signed Alderweireld whilst upgrading our weakest options for that position.

 

[braineclipse]

As Modric said, Alderweireld was signed with the view to pretty much slot in the first 11, not to be a backup to Fazio/Chiriches that eventually replaced them. I'm not saying we should immediately sell Eriksen or Lamela, but IMO we need a signing of the Alderweireld level, not a player to come in and maybe eventually take their place.

Aldereweireld was signed to upgrade on Fazio and Chiriches as you say. Players far removed from the quality of Eriksen, Lamela, Alli and Son.

Of course if we thought an attacking midfielder who could slot right in and be at that level was available and affordable we should sign them. I don't think the club is looking around at good value targets that are better than Lamela and thinking "nah, better not". But look around, what does money get you these days in terms of goal scoring attacking midfielders and forwards?

United paid £89m for Pogba, City £37m for Sane, Liverpool £34m for Mane, Chelsea £33m for Batshuayi, we paid £30m for Sissoko, Leicester £29m for Slimani, Palace £27m for Benteke, West Ham £20m for Ayew. (That's not cherry picking, that's the forwards/attacking midfielders for £20m going this summer listed on wikipedia at least). How many of those would be an obvious short term improvement on Lamela? How many of those could we actually have gotten?

Many fans were stoked to see us sign Sissoko. A PL proven player. Finally Levy supported the manager and all that supposedly good stuff. I would rather have signed two £15m younger talents for Pochettino to work his magic with.

When Pochettino took over a lot of our fans had seen enough of Walker, Vertonghen and Rose (just to mention a few) to want to see the back of them. If we had looked for the short term transfer upgrade on those with a "standard" 50% hit rate we would have signed 3, 1-2 would have failed, we would have spent again the next summer and maybe at this point if we were lucky we would have ended up with 3 players close to the current level the 3 initial players are now at with a lot of instability in the process. After spending what? £70m, just as a guesstimate? Thank fudge we didn't and instead trusted Pochettino to develop the players further.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Aldereweireld was signed to upgrade on Fazio and Chiriches as you say. Players far removed from the quality of Eriksen, Lamela, Alli and Son.

Of course if we thought an attacking midfielder who could slot right in and be at that level was available and affordable we should sign them. I don't think the club is looking around at good value targets that are better than Lamela and thinking "nah, better not". But look around, what does money get you these days in terms of goal scoring attacking midfielders and forwards?

United paid £89m for Pogba, City £37m for Sane, Liverpool £34m for Mane, Chelsea £33m for Batshuayi, we paid £30m for Sissoko, Leicester £29m for Slimani, Palace £27m for Benteke, West Ham £20m for Ayew. (That's not cherry picking, that's the forwards/attacking midfielders for £20m going this summer listed on wikipedia at least). How many of those would be an obvious short term improvement on Lamela? How many of those could we actually have gotten?

Many fans were stoked to see us sign Sissoko. A PL proven player. Finally Levy supported the manager and all that supposedly good stuff. I would rather have signed two £15m younger talents for Pochettino to work his magic with.

When Pochettino took over a lot of our fans had seen enough of Walker, Vertonghen and Rose (just to mention a few) to want to see the back of them. If we had looked for the short term transfer upgrade on those with a "standard" 50% hit rate we would have signed 3, 1-2 would have failed, we would have spent again the next summer and maybe at this point if we were lucky we would have ended up with 3 players close to the current level the 3 initial players are now at with a lot of instability in the process. After spending what? £70m, just as a guesstimate? Thank fudge we didn't and instead trusted Pochettino to develop the players further.

Mane would have been a very shrewd piece of business. Don't think we were ever in for him but he's one we could have got realistically I believe. We managed to get Eriksen even though Liverpool were very keen so it is possible. Maybe a bit pie in the sky but someone like Draxler would be a good signing.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

United paid £89m for Pogba, City £37m for Sane, Liverpool £34m for Mane, Chelsea £33m for Batshuayi, Leicester £29m for Slimani, Palace £27m for Benteke, West Ham £20m for Ayew.

And everyone of the this players will be on more money than our highest earner except for possibly the latter two. People look at transfer fees but forget wages conveniently. The longer term commitment in any transfer is the wages you pay and thats the biggest risk by far

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Mane would have been a very shrewd piece of business. Don't think we were ever in for him but he's one we could have got realistically I believe. We managed to get Eriksen even though Liverpool were very keen so it is possible. Maybe a bit pie in the sky but someone like Draxler would be a good signing.

Rumoured to be on £120k a week upwards... more than Kane, Alli and probably Rose combined...

A player we could have signed for half the money would have been Redmond who has been great for SCBC. I also dont get why we didn't go in for some like Brandt from Leverkusen who would have been gettable for that money

 

[braineclipse]

Mane would have been a very shrewd piece of business. Don't think we were ever in for him but he's one we could have got realistically I believe. We managed to get Eriksen even though Liverpool were very keen so it is possible. Maybe a bit pie in the sky but someone like Draxler would be a good signing.

That's it... The world is full of players that we maybe could have signed or that perhaps could have worked out. But of the 8 players I listed perhaps 1-2 could have been gotten and been short term upgrades. But if history and other clubs are any indication we would have been just as likely to fail as to succeed. Our short term hit rate when we had the Bale money to improve immediately with was atrocious.

I'd say on average an "upgrade signing" for Lamela, Alli or Eriksen would on average do no better than Son has this season. So why not instead put our trust in our manager with a very good record of developing players to do just that with Lamela, Eriksen, Alli, Son, Nkodou, Onomah, Winks, Janssen or someone else? That for me is where the smart money is.

 

[Spurs7891]

Tottenham miss Erik Lamela far more than his critics would have us believe

The Tottenham Hotspur winger is vital to their pressing game.

Tottenham Hotspur fans will be desperate to see defender Toby Alderweireld back in the starting line-up as soon as possible, but there is another Spurs player who is equally important to their play…even if his critics would disagree.

Erik Lamela continues to generate much debate among the club’s fan base but the simple fact is Tottenham are not the same team without him.

The Argentine international has missed the last six matches in all competitions, and in that time Tottenham have only won once after coming back late on against West Ham United.

That match aside, Spurs have struggled for results and their pressing style has suffered in the absence of the winger.

Lamela may not be everyone’s cup of tea but he is clearly rated by his manager, who knows his own style is implemented far better when the 24-year-old is on the pitch.

As important as Alderweireld is at the back – and he is vital – Lamela’s influence should not be understated.

He is expected back in early December and on recent evidence he will instantly return to the starting line-up in a bid to get Tottenham’s season back on track.

Fans have bemoaned the disappearance of Tottenham’s effective pressing style in recent weeks, proving once and for all just how important Lamela is despite those feeling he is still to justify his price tag.

http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2016/11/2...-far-more-than-his-critics-would-have/page/1/

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Exactly. We have badly missed his creativity, work rate, defensive duties and tenacity.