I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[Jurgen the German]

If his end product is so bad, what does that say of the rest of the team considering he is one of our best performers for assists? He always looks to play positive whether it be a dribble of forward thinking pass, which naturally means his success rate is going to be lower than others who play it safer more. His end product can and will with time improve, but isn't really as bad as is made out by some....

I'm not just saying this to dig to Lamela, but I really do think assists are an overrated stat. And it's just that, a stat. I prefer to look at goals and overall play, and I don't think Lamela's has been good enough. Kane and Eriksen are the only attacking players that I would say have had either very good or great seasons, Eriksen can actually play better than he is doing, but he's contributed vital, match winning goals. Chadli hasn't set the world alight, but he's got amongst the goals.

It just seems like an excuse to me say he "plays positive" as a reason as to why he loses the ball and picks the wrong option. It'a a toss up between who starts out of him and Chadli for me, Chadli is more of a goal threat, Lamela works harder and wins the ball back more often. But Lamela needs to do more to justify his place, in my opinion of course.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think he's been better than Eriksen in our last two games.

I think both of them had quiet ish games against Arsenal so it would be a draw for me.

Liverpool - Lamela was the better player.

 

[braineclipse]

I'm not just saying this to dig to Lamela, but I really do think assists are an overrated stat. And it's just that, a stat. I prefer to look at goals and overall play, and I don't think Lamela's has been good enough. Kane and Eriksen are the only attacking players that I would say have had either very good or great seasons, Eriksen can actually play better than he is doing, but he's contributed vital, match winning goals. Chadli hasn't set the world alight, but he's got amongst the goals.

It just seems like an excuse to me say he "plays positive" as a reason as to why he loses the ball and picks the wrong option. It'a a toss up between who starts out of him and Chadli for me, Chadli is more of a goal threat, Lamela works harder and wins the ball back more often. But Lamela needs to do more to justify his place, in my opinion of course.

Goals scored is also a stat. 1 assist = 1 goal.

What makes it overrated? (I'm assuming in comparison to goals scored as a stat?)

I agree that Lamela still has to do more. I think he's said as much himself quite recently in an interview. I think there's progress, talent and a tremendous work rate there and that makes me very optimistic.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Goals scored is also a stat. 1 assist = 1 goal.

What makes it overrated? (I'm assuming in comparison to goals scored as a stat?)

I agree that Lamela still has to do more. I think he's said as much himself quite recently in an interview. I think there's progress, talent and a tremendous work rate there and that makes me very optimistic.

Because you could get an assist for giving the ball to someone in your own half who then beats 8 players and scores. Lamela's pass was a very good one for Kane's goal against Liverpool I might add, but didn't Soldado get an assist for Townsend's goal against Villa last season? You know, the one where Townsend crossed it and it went straight in. The player who plays the most difficult pass in the move may not even get credit as he assisted the assister, remember when that stat got bandied about on here when trying to praise Ade lol.

It's a cliche, but scoring a goal is the toughest thing to do, that's why goal scorers get the highest wages more often than not and get sold for the most money.

 

[braineclipse]

Because you could get an assist for giving the ball to someone in your own half who then beats 8 players and scores. Lamela's pass was a very good one for Kane's goal against Liverpool I might add, but didn't Soldado get an assist for Townsend's goal against Villa last season? You know, the one where Townsend crossed it and it went straight in. The player who plays the most difficult pass in the move may not even get credit as he assisted the assister, remember when that stat got bandied about on here when trying to praise Ade lol.

It's a cliche, but scoring a goal is the toughest thing to do, that's why goal scorers get the highest wages more often than not and get sold for the most money.

But just as easily you could get a goal from a rebound after that player beat 8 players, but had his shot blocked by the goalie. Just by being there. Or you could have a blossoming superstar roast a supposedly world class right back again and again and pick out pin point crosses for average strikers to side foot into almost open nets.

We're not talking about one or two instances for either when we're talking about assists and goals as a stat. When we're talking about larger sample sizes both goalscoring and assists become significant and are not down to individual circumstances like those you describe. It's just not likely that those very easy assists will stack up over seasons for individual players. Just like it's not likely that very easy tap in goals will stack up over seasons.

Goalscorers usually are the highest paid yes. But I would say that players getting regular assists are not far behind. If not, who are the players consistently churning out high assist numbers in competitive leagues without getting the big moves or salaries? We should consider buying them if they exist...

 

[Jurgen the German]

But just as easily you could get a goal from a rebound after that player beat 8 players, but had his shot blocked by the goalie. Just by being there. Or you could have a blossoming superstar roast a supposedly world class right back again and again and pick out pin point crosses for average strikers to side foot into almost open nets.

We're not talking about one or two instances for either when we're talking about assists and goals as a stat. When we're talking about larger sample sizes both goalscoring and assists become significant and are not down to individual circumstances like those you describe. It's just not likely that those very easy assists will stack up over seasons for individual players. Just like it's not likely that very easy tap in goals will stack up over seasons.

Goalscorers usually are the highest paid yes. But I would say that players getting regular assists are not far behind. If not, who are the players consistently churning out high assist numbers in competitive leagues without getting the big moves or salaries? We should consider buying them if they exist...

Ok, Ozil is a player who is celebrated for his assists, but he drifts in and out of games too much for a player that is rated so highly, hence why he was surplus to requirements at Real Madrid. His overall play isn't good enough, certainly not good enough to be starting for Germany ahead of Gotze for example.

I accept that some assists are better than others, just as certain goals are better than others. The assist leaders tend to play for the top teams with the odd exception.

If Lamela had an outrageous assist total at this stage like 20 then I might be inclined to agree to a certain extent, but he has 5 which is around the 15th highest in the league. How many assists does Luka Modric get or Xavi for example? I'd be interested to know. Bale hardly got any at Spurs because he played with the likes of Defoe and Crouch. I remember scum fans knocked Bale for it "he's only got 1 assist" blah blah blah despite scoring 20 odd goals.

 

[braineclipse]

Ok, Ozil is a player who is celebrated for his assists, but he drifts in and out of games too much for a player that is rated so highly, hence why he was surplus to requirements at Real Madrid. His overall play isn't good enough, certainly not good enough to be starting for Germany ahead of Gotze for example.

I accept that some assists are better than others, just as certain goals are better than others. The assist leaders tend to play for the top teams with the odd exception.

If Lamela had an outrageous assist total at this stage like 20 then I might be inclined to agree to a certain extent, but he has 5 which is around the 15th highest in the league. How many assists does Luka Modric get or Xavi for example? I'd be interested to know. Bale hardly got any at Spurs because he played with the likes of Defoe and Crouch. I remember scum fans knocked Bale for it "he's only got 1 assist" blah blah blah despite scoring 20 odd goals.

Real is an almost impossibly high standard though. They have gotten rid of very good goalscorers too so I don't quite see how that's relevant in a discussion of the relative merits of assists and goals as a stat.

Modric got 2 assists in his 10 league games so far this season. 6 in 29 starts last season. 4 in 11 and 2 in 26 for Xavi are the corresponding numbers. Typically players that do not get a lot of goals or assists. Their impact on games is quite different. 20 would be outrageous considering that Fabregas is the player with the most assists in Europe this season (big leagues at least) with 15, only 4 players have 10 or more (Payet, De Bruyne, Messi and Fabregas).

Assists are counted as end product. As a description almost exclusively reserved for players getting regular goals and/or assists. There's a reason those are so frequently grouped together. And rightly so. You claim it's "just that, a stat" is not really accurate as assists directly 100% lead to goals and supposedly those win football matches.

I have no idea who or what you're arguing against with regards to Lamela... The only thing I've said about him in this discussion here is that I agree that Lamela still has to do more and that I think he agrees. I made a point about the assists stat in general, after you made a general comment about assists, pointing out this was not to have a dig at Lamela... Have I somehow argued that Lamela's assist numbers means that he's been good enough?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Real is an almost impossibly high standard though. They have gotten rid of very good goalscorers too so I don't quite see how that's relevant in a discussion of the relative merits of assists and goals as a stat.

Modric got 2 assists in his 10 league games so far this season. 6 in 29 starts last season. 4 in 11 and 2 in 26 for Xavi are the corresponding numbers. Typically players that do not get a lot of goals or assists. Their impact on games is quite different. 20 would be outrageous considering that Fabregas is the player with the most assists in Europe this season (big leagues at least) with 15, only 4 players have 10 or more (Payet, De Bruyne, Messi and Fabregas).

Assists are counted as end product. As a description almost exclusively reserved for players getting regular goals and/or assists. There's a reason those are so frequently grouped together. And rightly so. You claim it's "just that, a stat" is not really accurate as assists directly 100% lead to goals and supposedly those win football matches.

I have no idea who or what you're arguing against with regards to Lamela... The only thing I've said about him in this discussion here is that I agree that Lamela still has to do more and that I think he agrees. I made a point about the assists stat in general, after you made a general comment about assists, pointing out this was not to have a dig at Lamela... Have I somehow argued that Lamela's assist numbers means that he's been good enough?

Well I'm not arguing it, I'm disagreeing with certain posters who highlight his assist stats. Let's agree that we won't agree on this. And I haven't said that you think he has been good enough.

 

[harr1984]

Well I'm not arguing it, I'm disagreeing with certain posters who highlight his assist stats. Let's agree that we won't agree on this. And I haven't said that you think he has been good enough.

But you talk about end product - surely that is goals and assists? That's why I mentioned assists and without even mentioning his assists I would have said with my own eyes that he is one of the most likely to create. I agree his end product can improve, but I still think it is at a decent enough level at the moment....

 

[billyiddo]

Would be interesting to see his 'key passes' and 'chances created' stats - last time i checked he and Eriksen were out in front of the rest of the squad, but that was back in November iirc

 

[billyiddo]

 

[Modric THFC]

It will be very interesting to see how he does against an Italian side for the first time since he left Serie A.

 

[Mumorn]

Dembeles stats surprised me. Very good improvement. I'll take it to the Dembele thread.

 

[africanspurs]

Is that because we have seen Eriksen pushed out on the left side of the pitch to make room fro Dembele??

I am off the opinion that eriksen out on the left with the right AM and good ball playing base midfielders is extremely lethal....as in like bergkamp-lite in the hole lethal once he ghosts into those positions with movement that discourages tracking

So i dont think that Eriksen being on the left should be an issue

I also dont think that Eriksen has even played badly in our last two games. I think that he has played well but HIS bar is so much higher than others that him not performing wet dream levels of footy is more obvious. He is bold and creative and he has the skill / talent...with that is likely to come peaks and troughs by his standards

I'm just happy that lamela is doing less going forward...for me doing less and keeping things simple till you get to a position where you can do damage is progress, but no way would i say that lamela has been better last few games even compared to eriksen

 

[elltrev]

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I find it interesting that (according to WhoScored) Eriksen has set up 60 shots (i.e. key passes), but only 1 of those 60 shots has gone in (i.e. assist) - an incredibly awful ratio. Whereas Lamela's respective figures are 5 from 37, and Chadli's are 5 from 29.

Why is that? Because Eriksen takes lots of set pieces, which leads to more half-chances? Or because he has been more lethal with his shooting than others? Or just randomness due to a smallish sample size?

I remember Modric was the same - for 3 seasons in a row he had lots of key passes but few assists, which suggests it's not just a small sample thing. Then again last year Eriksen had about the same number of key passes in the whole season but 7 more assists, so maybe it is just a sample thing this season.

 

[braineclipse]

I find it interesting that (according to WhoScored) Eriksen has set up 60 shots (i.e. key passes), but only 1 of those 60 shots has gone in (i.e. assist) - an incredibly awful ratio. Whereas Lamela's respective figures are 5 from 37, and Chadli's are 5 from 29.

Why is that? Because Eriksen takes lots of set pieces, which leads to more half-chances? Or because he has been more lethal with his shooting than others? Or just randomness due to a smallish sample size?

I remember Modric was the same - for 3 seasons in a row he had lots of key passes but few assists, which suggests it's not just a small sample thing. Then again last year Eriksen had about the same number of key passes in the whole season but 7 more assists, so maybe it is just a sample thing this season.

I think you're right that sample size is the most important factor here.

 

[the dza]

I think, if he can keep up how he played in the first half against Liverpool, he'll become a very good player for us. Use the rest of the season to keep improving, then hopefully have a good, consistent season next season. I don't see anything yet where he looks like he'll be a star, but he looks on the road to becoming a solid player for us and I'll be happy to eat some humble pie if/when he does.

 

[africanspurs]

I think, if he can keep up how he played in the first half against Liverpool, he'll become a very good player for us. Use the rest of the season to keep improving, then hopefully have a good, consistent season next season. I don't see anything yet where he looks like he'll be a star, but he looks on the road to becoming a solid player for us and I'll be happy to eat some humble pie if/when he does.

agree with everything here

This is exactly how i see him too. I see him as an extremely high talented role player...with the high probability of being a solid contributor in key stats.

the hope is that he goes on to become one of those world class role players that are necessary in every great team..i.e not the star but the cream of the crop supporting cast that allows the stars and the team as a whole to shine

Actually i take a gesture back...i have seen quite a bit that indicates he could be a phenomenon and something of a special wizard but consistency and application so rare and so fleeting ... i've been burnt by taarabt in the past.

 

[the dza]

...i have seen quite a bit that indicates he could be a phenomenon and something of a special wizard but consistency and application so rare and so fleeting ... i've been burnt by taarabt in the past.

I'm pretty stupid when it comes to stuff like this, I need obvious things to see a player is a star; Bale smacking goals in from 20 yards every week, Harry Kane destroying teams on his own etc. I'm no good with subtleties (I struggle to even spell it) -- that's why I always maintained Modric was good, but over-rated, even when the best coaches in the world prove me quite obviously wrong haha.

If Lamela scores one of those rabona's against a good team, I might believe that he could be special for us, rather than just good. Saying that, I will settle for good and consistent...and also, I think we should be expecting this of him next season. Consistent, 7 out of 10 type performances where he impacts games in attack, not just with pressing and work-rate. Signs from recent games are good (I'm repeating myself and rambling now).

 

[jurgen lineker]

As long as he continues displaying flashes of his potential ability and does not prove to be a burden to the side anytime soon then i'm all for him continuing in the first team this season if that means that we'll see a higher level of performance from him on a more consistent basis next season. For me, the little flashes of brilliance that we have seen of him thus far are reason alone to stand by him and be patient.

He is not be up to the level of some others in the side at the moment in terms of general play but that does not necessarily mean that he is a liability or not contributing to the side at the minute. His pressing, tracking back and general work rate in the side are probably only second to Harry Kane. All attributes that are key to Poch's system.

I still regard this season as his bedding in season, last year is a complete write-off as far as i am concerned when you take into account all that occurred in and around the club and his personal situation to boot too. We've all seen what a season can do for the likes of Eriksen and to a degree Chadli, let’s just hope the same pans out for Lamela too. Also worth remembering that even the best struggle at times in their debut seasons, just take a look at Surarez at Barca now, Falcao at Utd and even Modric a couple of years back in his debut season at Madrid.