Hotshot-Tottenham
Edgar Davids
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
The Barney purple might have clashed withe the claret.
last season's kit :-k
The Barney purple might have clashed withe the claret.
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Hugo Lloris
- Thread starter charlietheyid
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milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Van Gaal's Holland were very dependent on Robben and a player of that quality will stand a chance against any system.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Within Poch's system we should be looking for us to close down quickly from the front and force errors that create goal scoring opportunities. As braineclipse said, there is little sense in doing this against a team that is looking for am early long ball and even less sense when you are a man down. Hopefully, we will have better games to gage what we will be like this season in the coming weeks.Hi Scara, any help gratefully accepted. I don't know exactly what 'Poch's pressing CBs' are supposed to look like, but I didn't see evidence v West Ham of some kind of unique pressing, that was anything different to what you'd expect from a Prem defence.
To reiterate my point is, various experts said we could expect a high line from Poch, haven't noticed that at all. Some also said there was a big emphasis on pressing which would involve all the outfield players. Well I saw some emphasis on pressing pre-season, but didn't notice anything out of the ordinary from the CBs pre-season, but during the West Ham game we didn't look a noticeably pressing team at all.
So to sum up, Poch's team plays a high line, except when it doesn't, Poch's players are all involved in a high energy pressing game, except when they aren't
Apart from having a bit of fun with the experts and gurus of cyberland, there is a bit more serious side to my points. One, many announced Dawson couldn't play for 'Poch's team', so had to leave, but I've not seen anything to back up that assertion. Two, the experts got quite a lot of egg on their collective faces when they described how AVB's team would play, and in fact AVB's Spurs weren't like the team they described. Three, it might do some 'eggsperts' a favour to wait a while and see how a team actually plays under a manager before they start their in-depth analyses. Four, a key point to me, is the players you have available. Some of the reasons why AVB's Spurs didn't fit the experts' template is we didn't have a Moutinho type player, nor a Hulk/Falcao style player. Following on from this, is Eriksen suited to a pressing game, is Ade, is Kane, Lennon might be, but together with Rose, still couldn't press enough to stop Downing getting in a lot of crosses. Questions, questions, in time we'll get the answers, some may not like them as with AVB, who decided Dawson, couldn't play in his high line, then changed his mind. Maybe he should have kept Daws and ditched the high line? Maybe not? There were pros and cons for the high line, but by the end it looked like the Maginot line, and the General had to go. AVB also famously had problems with Terry and the high line, well Terry's still at Chelsea and they are favourites along with City for the title.
I'm all for in-depth analysis, even though most of the time I don't read them, as being an old git, a lot of it just passes me by. But when I do take the effort to read them and they prove to be substantially wrong, then being a grumpy old git, I can't but help point out the Emperor has new clothes. Yes it was a kid in the the original story, but no need to let facts get in the way
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Yep we'll see what happens as the season progresses. But for example, I've seen nothing so far to suggest that we're playing a high line with 'pressing CBs', that makes Daws a bad fit for Poch, as many have claimed would happen
Yep we'll see what happens as the season progresses. But for example, I've seen nothing so far to suggest that we're playing a high line with 'pressing CBs', that makes Daws a bad fit for Poch, as many have claimed would happen
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Oh, and welcome back
What's the difference between a pressing CB and one that doesn't?
Oh, and welcome back
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
I don't know That's what I'm trying to find out. But as I said various experts have deemed Dawson to be unfit for Spurs, because he doesn't fit in with Poch's 'pressing game'. My point is I haven't seen anything in 'Poch's high line' or 'pressing game' that makes Daws unfit for purpose. Of course, it may be that Daws won't fit into Poch's system, but then I remember various experts and AVB himself thinking Daws couldn't fit into AVB's system. but later AVB backtracked.
And thanks for the welcome, I can't remember why I left last time, but I think this is a good well-run forum so am pleased to be back.
What's the difference between a pressing CB and one that doesn't?
Oh, and welcome back
I don't know
That's what I'm trying to find out. But as I said various experts have deemed Dawson to be unfit for Spurs, because he doesn't fit in with Poch's 'pressing game'. My point is I haven't seen anything in 'Poch's high line' or 'pressing game' that makes Daws unfit for purpose. Of course, it may be that Daws won't fit into Poch's system, but then I remember various experts and AVB himself thinking Daws couldn't fit into AVB's system. but later AVB backtracked.And thanks for the welcome, I can't remember why I left last time, but I think this is a good well-run forum so am pleased to be back.
Cochise
Steve Carr
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
I think most people don't think Daws fits because of his lack of pace. If we play a high line with a lot of pressing from the midfield then the likelihood is that the opposition will knock the ball long/over the top of our defence. Ideally our CB's need to have at least some pace so to keep up with the pacy striker etc chasing down the long ball. I think when Liverpool beat us last season at WHL, their first goal came as a result of Skrtel hoofing the ball long and our defenders not dealing with it.
I think most people don't think Daws fits because of his lack of pace. If we play a high line with a lot of pressing from the midfield then the likelihood is that the opposition will knock the ball long/over the top of our defence. Ideally our CB's need to have at least some pace so to keep up with the pacy striker etc chasing down the long ball. I think when Liverpool beat us last season at WHL, their first goal came as a result of Skrtel hoofing the ball long and our defenders not dealing with it.
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
So given we're not playing a high line, 'most people' are getting it wrong about Daws, because of a false assumption. Which is precisely my point.
metalgear
Luka Modric
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
not just pace but awareness and anticipation. for a CB holding a high line anticipating a hoof, he should:
a. posture - turn sideways while facing play so that all he needs is a half turn to get moving
b. inertia - start moving sideways or even taking small steps backwards so that inertia is with him when he needs to sprint back
all this while watching the ball and the likely "receiver" as the offside trap is set.
this means that the CB cannot get drawn forward and commit himself into a tackle in the midfield unless necessary, and we will need a strong screen in front, and a quick keeper behind to make this work.
what's crucial is the "chain link effect" between players - the distances required for mutual area coverage, plus not over-committing so as not to put the keeper in jeopardy.
lloris isn't just fast, he reads the play extremely well too (e.g. point blank save from downing after ball went through capoue's legs). and there must be excellent understanding between keeper and defenders as the defence will be stretched to the corner flag, and CBs may have to chase that down while the fullbacks or DM track back and cover the vacated space.
not just pace but awareness and anticipation. for a CB holding a high line anticipating a hoof, he should:
a. posture - turn sideways while facing play so that all he needs is a half turn to get moving
b. inertia - start moving sideways or even taking small steps backwards so that inertia is with him when he needs to sprint back
all this while watching the ball and the likely "receiver" as the offside trap is set.
this means that the CB cannot get drawn forward and commit himself into a tackle in the midfield unless necessary, and we will need a strong screen in front, and a quick keeper behind to make this work.
what's crucial is the "chain link effect" between players - the distances required for mutual area coverage, plus not over-committing so as not to put the keeper in jeopardy.
lloris isn't just fast, he reads the play extremely well too (e.g. point blank save from downing after ball went through capoue's legs). and there must be excellent understanding between keeper and defenders as the defence will be stretched to the corner flag, and CBs may have to chase that down while the fullbacks or DM track back and cover the vacated space.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
I don't think you can make too many judgments on our intended style based on the West Ham match because of the way it panned out i.e. sending off, Allardyce long ball. The preseason matches would point towards a high pressing style, with quick movement of the ball and off the ball. There wasn't a lot of that evident against the Spammers but I'm willing to bet that what we saw was not indicative of how Poch wants us to play.
I saying that the West Ham match was tailor made for Dawson and I thought Pochettino made a mistake not bringing him on when Naughton saw red. It ended well though so what do I know.
I don't think you can make too many judgments on our intended style based on the West Ham match because of the way it panned out i.e. sending off, Allardyce long ball. The preseason matches would point towards a high pressing style, with quick movement of the ball and off the ball. There wasn't a lot of that evident against the Spammers but I'm willing to bet that what we saw was not indicative of how Poch wants us to play.
I saying that the West Ham match was tailor made for Dawson and I thought Pochettino made a mistake not bringing him on when Naughton saw red. It ended well though so what do I know.
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Pre-season we didn't see much/any evidence of a high line. We saw some evidence of pressing, but not from the CBs to any notable degree. So it's just not West Ham I'm basing my impressions on. Naturally, we'll find out more as the season progresses. However some/many people/experts were keen to tell us how Poch's Spurs would play before we'd even played one game let alone the 5 we've already played.
Pre-season we didn't see much/any evidence of a high line. We saw some evidence of pressing, but not from the CBs to any notable degree. So it's just not West Ham I'm basing my impressions on. Naturally, we'll find out more as the season progresses. However some/many people/experts were keen to tell us how Poch's Spurs would play before we'd even played one game let alone the 5 we've already played.
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
I'm not sure about the high line but I do know that Poch favours defenders who are comfortable on the ball and can play it out of defence. I think that even Dawson's staunchest supports would agree that this is not one of his strengths.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
I think you and I saw something different in preseason. I would not like to my CB's getting involved in this pressing game (if I'm reading that right). The high line is not a tactic in itself but something that changes as the forward players press the ball so that the gap between the CM's and CB's doesn't get too stretched. The pressure I was referring to is that pressure exerted in concert by all the forward players and it was obvious to me looking at the preseason that this was something we had been working on. Needless to say it was and is a work in progress but I was happy to see us try it nonetheless.
In the West Ham game this didn't click at all, by design or through circumstance I don't know. I thought that Lamela, Eriksen, etc. pressed in isolation and even the West Ham cloggers were able to negate this fairly easily, and when we did cut off their options they just pinged it long. Primarily we seemed to sit in a bit and our defenders were not that adventurous in their positioning.
I still standby my assertion that the West Ham game was an outlier and the next match up will show us where we're headed with this tactic.
I think you and I saw something different in preseason. I would not like to my CB's getting involved in this pressing game (if I'm reading that right). The high line is not a tactic in itself but something that changes as the forward players press the ball so that the gap between the CM's and CB's doesn't get too stretched. The pressure I was referring to is that pressure exerted in concert by all the forward players and it was obvious to me looking at the preseason that this was something we had been working on. Needless to say it was and is a work in progress but I was happy to see us try it nonetheless.
In the West Ham game this didn't click at all, by design or through circumstance I don't know. I thought that Lamela, Eriksen, etc. pressed in isolation and even the West Ham cloggers were able to negate this fairly easily, and when we did cut off their options they just pinged it long. Primarily we seemed to sit in a bit and our defenders were not that adventurous in their positioning.
I still standby my assertion that the West Ham game was an outlier and the next match up will show us where we're headed with this tactic.
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Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Yep, we saw different things and I'm happy to stand by my assertions.
Yep, we saw different things and I'm happy to stand by my assertions.
NYSpur
Hossam Ghaly
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
Based on what I saw at the open training session in Toronto, and the subsequent game, I agree with your conclusion. At the practice there was notable pressing with a view to getting the ball played back to the goalie who would then be pressed in turn. It was notably absent from the West Ham game but that could be because of the way West Ham play. The high press is going to be most effective against teams that want to pass out from the back because you are not giving them the time or space to do so. When the team is comfortable hitting the ball long the press is not such an issue. It may be that MoPo dialed back the pressing for this reason against West Ham.
Another notable aspect that I observed in Toronto was the desire to play out from the back. Centre backs would go wide and Capoue would drop into the central area to retrieve the ball.
Based on what I saw at the open training session in Toronto, and the subsequent game, I agree with your conclusion. At the practice there was notable pressing with a view to getting the ball played back to the goalie who would then be pressed in turn. It was notably absent from the West Ham game but that could be because of the way West Ham play. The high press is going to be most effective against teams that want to pass out from the back because you are not giving them the time or space to do so. When the team is comfortable hitting the ball long the press is not such an issue. It may be that MoPo dialed back the pressing for this reason against West Ham.
Another notable aspect that I observed in Toronto was the desire to play out from the back. Centre backs would go wide and Capoue would drop into the central area to retrieve the ball.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Re: Hugo Lloris - part two
About the CB pressing I think you're arguing against something rather nebulous that someone somewhere wrote. Not what anyone on here has said in this thread at least from what I can see.
Agreed, it's not all about pace at all. Hummels is quite far from fast and excellent in a high pressing (functional) team like Dortmund for example and made the difference for Germany's high line problems even though his replacement (Boateng) is significantly quicker than him.
I agree fully on all this. We look much willing to accept risk playing out from the back. There will be mistakes, I'm sure of it, but longer term I think it will do us very good.
About the CB pressing I think you're arguing against something rather nebulous that someone somewhere wrote. Not what anyone on here has said in this thread at least from what I can see.
Agreed, it's not all about pace at all. Hummels is quite far from fast and excellent in a high pressing (functional) team like Dortmund for example and made the difference for Germany's high line problems even though his replacement (Boateng) is significantly quicker than him.
I agree fully on all this. We look much willing to accept risk playing out from the back. There will be mistakes, I'm sure of it, but longer term I think it will do us very good.
