Hillsborough Disaster

[glasgowspur]

I have sympathy for the dead and their friends and family. Most if not all of them were innocents attending a football match in s proper and orderly manner.
The ones following who we're ticketless or not behaving in a proper and orderly manner have not only got away with it but been exonerated and led to people put in a impossible position because of their behaviour being pilloried.

 

[Grays_1890]

Numerous errors were made. No one is stating the police intended to kill anyone but they did contribute with poor decision making, under pressure or not. That is what they are there for - to make correct decisions and if they fail to do that then they are accountable to some degree as unfortunate as that may be.

I am at HUGE sympathy with those that died

Accountable by being one person where as its harder to actually find those that were at crime. At Crime being without ticket and being in a match without a ticket, which is a crime. I don't buy "it was then and thats how it is"......Saying a police man is accountable is like saying a shot policeman does so knowing the danger, its a flimflam view.

The fact that there were people, numerous people breaking the law put too much pressure on the police, its like me tapping the bus drive on the shoulder until the bus crashes and then saying its his fault....

Not one, ONE Liverpool fan has said "hold up maybe we should take some of the blame" and for me thats what sticks....If I break the law and I get arrested, as I have done for some silly stupid things, I will hold my hands up and say "fair cop", thats not Spurs v Liverpool, wishing the dead, dead, I wish them alive, but the people that started the problem that caused the reaction need to hold their hands up, they won't and thats where the next cover up comes from, blame the blamable job titled, not the people breaking the law.....

Makes me puke

 

[billyiddo]

Ok lets get it all right here

This isnt about Liverpool this is about whats right and wrong. Some guy leaves court today, one man with 96 deaths on his head whilst thousands of ticketless people get away scott free.

Easy to blame one than work harder to actually work on whats right and wrong.

No fans without tickets, no Hillsborough....thats a fact

No violence in football, no cages in the 80s ....thats a fact

Blaming a copper for what went on when he was under total pressure, pressure bought about by fans without tickets is like blaming a security guard in NYC for 9/11

The scousers want blood, thats how it is, this isnt even going to give them what they want, and I know because my best mates a die hard and knows how I feel and this is just a spring board for more action....you wait

it was nothing to do with ticket-less supporters it was to do with poor crowd management - too many supporters being funneled in to an already full area with no exit whilst other areas had room. just like with Spurs fans at Hillsborough several years before - luckily for us the gates were opened at the front which stopped a similar disaster from happening, had they not it may well have been us calling for for some justice

 

[milo]

It would have been reputational suicide to come up with any other result. So, from the outside, we'll never know.

The laws of averages will tell you there's no way every scouser was innocent, just as not every policeman was guilty.

All of the evidence that the inquest heard has been published on their website

https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/

Anyone who thinks that this is a cover up can go through the evidence and point to evidence of that.

The CPS are meant to be reviewing the evidence and considering criminal prosecutions. Should there be any prosecutions, you can depend on the defence team going through the inquiry evidence with a fine tooth comb and any inconsistencies would be exposed in court.

A cover up or politically comfortable decision wouldn't stand up to this scrutiny and you'd still have to convince the jurors to going along with it, even if it could. We're getting close to the realms of fantasy here.

 

[Libero]

I am at HUGE sympathy with those that died

Accountable by being one person where as its harder to actually find those that were at crime. At Crime being without ticket and being in a match without a ticket, which is a crime. I don't buy "it was then and thats how it is"......Saying a police man is accountable is like saying a shot policeman does so knowing the danger, its a hogwash view.

The fact that there were people, numerous people breaking the law put too much pressure on the police, its like me tapping the bus drive on the shoulder until the bus crashes and then saying its his fault....

Not one, ONE Liverpool fan has said "hold up maybe we should take some of the blame" and for me thats what sticks....If I break the law and I get arrested, as I have done for some silly stupid things, I will hold my hands up and say "fair cop", thats not Spurs v Liverpool, wishing the dead, dead, I wish them alive, but the people that started the problem that caused the reaction need to hold their hands up, they won't and thats where the next cover up comes from, blame the blamable job titled, not the people breaking the law.....

Makes me puke

Your supposed sympathy seems to be with caveats which I would suggest makes it insincere in this instance as you appear vociferous in your attacks on the fans as a whole. The comparisons you have made are a nonsense to me and completely and utterly out of sync with the gravity of this issue. You have absolutely no concrete evidence or numbers for what you are suggesting and yet you continue to suggest it despite the verdict today in court. The police as a whole are accountable but Duckenfield is by proxy accountable because he was Match Commander. That is the whole point of having an overall authority, so that they can take and make decisions and if you get it wrong then you have to justify why you came to your decisions and why you thought they were reasonable. They as a force have not been able to do that and worse than that, they have then tried to cover it up and slander people in order to save their own skin. If you advocate that behaviour then that's your decision but it is not in my nature to just agree like a nodding dog.

I don't doubt that fans may well have been present without tickets but does that really mean that decisions before, during and after by the Police weren't more of a factor in what occurred?
Two wrongs don't make a right. I wasn't there and only those that were can truly talk with knowledge of the numbers with or without tickets and it is for them to discuss whether they feel that didn't help matters. I can only talk about the things that are currently available for me to discuss with concrete proof and on that basis it is absolutely impossible, in my opinion to say that the Police were not, in conjunction with other bodies, largely at fault for what occurred. I think that is indisputable and all the other bits and pieces around are window dressing and point scoring on a geographical basis.

This sort of nonsense with the Police treating football fans with contempt doesn't seem to happen very often in London anymore thankfully but I tell you this, it certainly happens up North for games I attend with Spurs and it has to stop. The whole underlying issue with this is that fans were treated like cattle and as nothing other than an inconvenience to the authorities. you wouldn't see them treating people going to a massive concert at Wembley like it yet it is perfectly fine to start herding fans onto trains out of Leeds and Manchester regardless of when their ticket is for and telling them to fudge off out of our city. It is exactly that attitude that has brought us where we are to today and hopefully this verdict might start a chain reaction that changes the way that Police officers behave towards fans in a broader sense and actually get tough with those that require it rather than using a one size fits all approach.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Ok lets get it all right here

This isnt about Liverpool this is about whats right and wrong. Some guy leaves court today, one man with 96 deaths on his head whilst thousands of ticketless people get away scott free.

Easy to blame one than work harder to actually work on whats right and wrong.

No fans without tickets, no Hillsborough....thats a fact

No violence in football, no cages in the 80s ....thats a fact

Blaming a copper for what went on when he was under total pressure, pressure bought about by fans without tickets is like blaming a security guard in NYC for 9/11

The scousers want blood, thats how it is, this isnt even going to give them what they want, and I know because my best mates a die hard and knows how I feel and this is just a spring board for more action....you wait

Pathetic

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

it was nothing to do with ticket-less supporters it was to do with poor crowd management - too many supporters being funneled in to an already full area with no exit whilst other areas had room. just like with Spurs fans at Hillsborough several years before - luckily for us the gates were opened at the front which stopped a similar disaster from happening, had they not it may well have been us calling for for some justice

Don't try clouding the issue with facts, just blame Liverpool, again some people can not look any further than their own ignorance and bias. But there are still people who say the holocaust never happened.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

Your supposed sympathy seems to be with caveats which I would suggest makes it insincere in this instance as you appear vociferous in your attacks on the fans as a whole. The comparisons you have made are a nonsense to me and completely and utterly out of sync with the gravity of this issue. You have absolutely no concrete evidence or numbers for what you are suggesting and yet you continue to suggest it despite the verdict today in court. The police as a whole are accountable but Duckenfield is by proxy accountable because he was Match Commander. That is the whole point of having an overall authority, so that they can take and make decisions and if you get it wrong then you have to justify why you came to your decisions and why you thought they were reasonable. They as a force have not been able to do that and worse than that, they have then tried to cover it up and slander people in order to save their own skin. If you advocate that behaviour then that's your decision but it is not in my nature to just agree like a nodding dog.

I don't doubt that fans may well have been present without tickets but does that really mean that decisions before, during and after by the Police weren't more of a factor in what occurred?
Two wrongs don't make a right. I wasn't there and only those that were can truly talk with knowledge of the numbers with or without tickets and it is for them to discuss whether they feel that didn't help matters. I can only talk about the things that are currently available for me to discuss with concrete proof and on that basis it is absolutely impossible, in my opinion to say that the Police were not, in conjunction with other bodies, largely at fault for what occurred. I think that is indisputable and all the other bits and pieces around are window dressing and point scoring on a geographical basis.

This sort of nonsense with the Police treating football fans with contempt doesn't seem to happen very often in London anymore thankfully but I tell you this, it certainly happens up North for games I attend with Spurs and it has to stop. The whole underlying issue with this is that fans were treated like cattle and as nothing other than an inconvenience to the authorities. you wouldn't see them treating people going to a massive concert at Wembley like it yet it is perfectly fine to start herding fans onto trains out of Leeds and Manchester regardless of when their ticket is for and telling them to fudge off out of our city. It is exactly that attitude that has brought us where we are to today and hopefully this verdict might start a chain reaction that changes the way that Police officers behave towards fans in a broader sense and actually get tough with those that require it rather than using a one size fits all approach.

You are right about Sheffied police, in '81 I was meeting my cousin in the city centre, but coppers told me to get on the match bus or in the back of their van, it was like that in most northern towns.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Your supposed sympathy seems to be with caveats which I would suggest makes it insincere in this instance as you appear vociferous in your attacks on the fans as a whole. The comparisons you have made are a nonsense to me and completely and utterly out of sync with the gravity of this issue. You have absolutely no concrete evidence or numbers for what you are suggesting and yet you continue to suggest it despite the verdict today in court. The police as a whole are accountable but Duckenfield is by proxy accountable because he was Match Commander. That is the whole point of having an overall authority, so that they can take and make decisions and if you get it wrong then you have to justify why you came to your decisions and why you thought they were reasonable. They as a force have not been able to do that and worse than that, they have then tried to cover it up and slander people in order to save their own skin. If you advocate that behaviour then that's your decision but it is not in my nature to just agree like a nodding dog.

I don't doubt that fans may well have been present without tickets but does that really mean that decisions before, during and after by the Police weren't more of a factor in what occurred?
Two wrongs don't make a right. I wasn't there and only those that were can truly talk with knowledge of the numbers with or without tickets and it is for them to discuss whether they feel that didn't help matters. I can only talk about the things that are currently available for me to discuss with concrete proof and on that basis it is absolutely impossible, in my opinion to say that the Police were not, in conjunction with other bodies, largely at fault for what occurred. I think that is indisputable and all the other bits and pieces around are window dressing and point scoring on a geographical basis.

This sort of nonsense with the Police treating football fans with contempt doesn't seem to happen very often in London anymore thankfully but I tell you this, it certainly happens up North for games I attend with Spurs and it has to stop. The whole underlying issue with this is that fans were treated like cattle and as nothing other than an inconvenience to the authorities. you wouldn't see them treating people going to a massive concert at Wembley like it yet it is perfectly fine to start herding fans onto trains out of Leeds and Manchester regardless of when their ticket is for and telling them to fudge off out of our city. It is exactly that attitude that has brought us where we are to today and hopefully this verdict might start a chain reaction that changes the way that Police officers behave towards fans in a broader sense and actually get tough with those that require it rather than using a one size fits all approach.

Great post!

Especially agree about the police. My old man told me a story about an away game at Carrow Road, he parked in a residential just a short walk from the ground, but when he left the ground, all the Spurs fans got rounded up and marched back to the main train station in Norwich. As he was walking back, he pointed out to a copper that his car was literally just a few yards away and that he wasn't using the train to drive back home, he then physically pointed to his car, with the keys as evidence but they ignored him and made him walk all the way back to the station, then walk back to his car again.

I've been shoved by Police on the way to WHL because they thought I was a Leeds fan (basically I got caught up amongst them on the way to WHL from Seven Sisters. I don't envy police officers as they have a bloody hard job, but some of them act like complete clams towards football fans. I genuinely believe a lot of them either have complete contempt for football fans as you alluded to, or they just don't know how deal with them.

The police cover their arses more than anyone and rarely admit to any wrongdoing.

 

[Baleforce]

as you all know I hate that fudging club

the issue wasn't Liverpool fans though, it was football fans

yeah, the police were after an excuse to get heavy handed all through the 70's and 80's, and fans pretty much gave it to them every time

the fences were up for a reason, the causes off the tragedy were long in the making, today's conclusion is no more accurate than the original flimflam

anyone who's ever "been involved" around a football match has blood on their hands too, the animal behaviour preceded the animal treatment

 

[glorygloryeze]

Just seen interview on Newsnight and it seems one of those who died was a Spurs fan who met his mate who was a Liverpool fan as he had a car and his mate had a spare ticket and thought he'd join him and give him a lift there...

 

[the dza]

I am pleased for the relatives of those who died that day, they they now have some sort of justice, even though it can't make up for their loss. At least it helps to make up for the disgusting and unfounded smear campaign waged against those fans who were there that day. And good on them for fighting for it.

 

[scaramanga]

All of the evidence that the inquest heard has been published on their website

https://hillsboroughinquests.independent.gov.uk/

Anyone who thinks that this is a cover up can go through the evidence and point to evidence of that.

The CPS are meant to be reviewing the evidence and considering criminal prosecutions. Should there be any prosecutions, you can depend on the defence team going through the inquiry evidence with a fine tooth comb and any inconsistencies would be exposed in court.

A cover up or politically comfortable decision wouldn't stand up to this scrutiny and you'd still have to convince the jurors to going along with it, even if it could. We're getting close to the realms of fantasy here.

I don't think there's a cover up, just a complete lack of impetus (or possibly bravery) to investigate the fans in the detail the police and stewards were investigated.

I'm not surprised after the way anyone speaking out about the fans' behaviour has been hounded by the jobless, attention-seeking scousers for 30 years.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, anyone who knows anything about football fans has a pretty good idea of what their behaviour was like at every match, not just that one. Clearly mistakes were made by police and stewards, but to completely absolve the fans is nothing short of ridiculous. At every single football match for two decades fans didn't do what the police told them to. Are we to believe that in this case they all turned up on time, sober and with tickets and then didn't want to enter the ground? And that the only reason they did is because those nasty police forced them to? And that on this occasion, and this occasion only, thousands of football fans just acquiesced and did exactly what the police told them to do? Only a halfwit could believe that.

 

[glorygloryeze]

When Spurs played at Hillsborough earlier in the decade and this tragedy nearly happened then, was that down to Spurs fans poor behaviour?
Genuine question to those who attended or knew friends/family/associates who did

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't think there's a cover up, just a complete lack of impetus (or possibly bravery) to investigate the fans in the detail the police and stewards were investigated.

I'm not surprised after the way anyone speaking out about the fans' behaviour has been hounded by the jobless, attention-seeking scousers for 30 years.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, anyone who knows anything about football fans has a pretty good idea of what their behaviour was like at every match, not just that one. Clearly mistakes were made by police and stewards, but to completely absolve the fans is nothing short of ridiculous. At every single football match for two decades fans didn't do what the police told them to. Are we to believe that in this case they all turned up on time, sober and with tickets and then didn't want to enter the ground? And that the only reason they did is because those nasty police forced them to? And that on this occasion, and this occasion only, thousands of football fans just acquiesced and did exactly what the police told them to do? Only a halfwit could believe that.

No.
But having spent a lot of my youth going up and down the country during the very early '80s, I can tell you point-blank that the police ABSOLUTELY caused the vast majority of crowd issues by treating fans with total and utter contempt. I personally witnessed police at Upton Park call Garth Crooks a c**n, loudly, which subsequently caused a massive fight in the away end that had been bubbling forever, and I cannot tell you how many times we were marched loudly, and rudely, by police from station-to-ground before being shoved into away ends regardless of safety issues. Understand this Scara...Hillsborough could've happened anywhere, and nearly did many times. Again, it nearly happened with us, at Hillsborough, in '81. And at QPR the same cup run. I remember horrible crowd control going into Kenilworth Road a couple of times.

Let me assure you that the police on the day at Hillsborough could easily have biased with stadium staff, quickly ascertained the scope of the situation with regards to time left before kick-off versus where the fans were in Leppings Lane versus approximately how many were coming versus how many extras might try to get in (a common thing) and they could've EASILY delayed the kick-off by 30 minutes and used their (at the time) usual force to 'direct' the situation with more authority. That they didn't is on them. They had job, along with Hillsborough staff, and they simply fudging failed to do it properly.

...don't know if you were at the 1981 Cup Final, but I personally saw a turnstile operator taking money from ticket-less yiddos. Sold-out packed stadium was probably over-filled by another 3,000. I was on the upper tier and ended up sitting on the ledge where the roof met the back of the old stand, because if I'd remained where I was standing, I felt I could well have been injured because people kept streaming in. Sorry, If anything had happened, the fault would've been with Wembley and the police for letting it happen/not being diligent enough.

I am absolutely DELIGHTED for the 96. Delighted.

 

[thfcsteff]

When Spurs played at Hillsborough earlier in the decade and this tragedy nearly happened then, was that down to Spurs fans poor behaviour?
Genuine question to those who attended or knew friends/family/associates who did

The ONLY reason it didn't happen was because fans were let onto the pitch, and not stopped by police/stadium staff. I was a young man but I do not remember the crowd that day being any different to any crowd of the era.

 

[scaramanga]

No.
But having spent a lot of my youth going up and down the country during the very early '80s, I can tell you point-blank that the police ABSOLUTELY caused the vast majority of crowd issues by treating fans with total and utter contempt. I personally witnessed police at Upton Park call Garth Crooks a c**n, loudly, which subsequently caused a massive fight in the away end that had been bubbling forever, and I cannot tell you how many times we were marched loudly, and rudely, by police from station-to-ground before being shoved into away ends regardless of safety issues. Understand this Scara...Hillsborough could've happened anywhere, and nearly did many times. Again, it nearly happened with us, at Hillsborough, in '81. And at QPR the same cup run. I remember horrible crowd control going into Kenilworth Road a couple of times.

Some of our own fans have said similar and caused fights amongst ourselves - I don't think you can single out the police for that kind of behaviour.

Let me assure you that the police on the day at Hillsborough could easily have biased with stadium staff, quickly ascertained the scope of the situation with regards to time left before kick-off versus where the fans were in Leppings Lane versus approximately how many were coming versus how many extras might try to get in (a common thing) and they could've EASILY delayed the kick-off by 30 minutes and used their (at the time) usual force to 'direct' the situation with more authority. That they didn't is on them. They had job, along with Hillsborough staff, and they simply fudgeing failed to do it properly.

You're right, they should have done better and they didn't. For me, that falls a very long way short of the criminal prosecutions that those awful people up there are calling for.

You also have to take into account the fact that their decisions/actions were all framed around the general behaviour of football fans at the time. Whilst there was a need to see the fans into the ground safely, there was also a need to protect innocent fans and police from trouble makers. The police and stadium staff would have been equally negligent to just let the fans do what they wanted.

It might be difficult for some of us to see, but football fans were a very dangerous group, that had to be treated as such. My perspective on this is probably a little more removed than most as I don't really associate with football fans outside of football itself. Most of my friends/colleagues dislike football and I have a very clear view of how the outside world saw us.

...don't know if you were at the 1981 Cup Final, but I personally saw a turnstile operator taking money from ticket-less yiddos. Sold-out packed stadium was probably over-filled by another 3,000. I was on the upper tier and ended up sitting on the ledge where the roof met the back of the old stand, because if I'd remained where I was standing, I felt I could well have been injured because people kept streaming in. Sorry, If anything had happened, the fault would've been with Wembley and the police for letting it happen/not being diligent enough.

I wasn't there, but I've seen enough of it to know how rife it was. Again, the fans paying at the gates need to take a huge amount of responsibility for what happened there - you can't just blame the police for not stopping it.

I am absolutely DELIGHTED for the 96. Delighted.

I'm not. Those vindictive bastards will now go for criminal prosecutions against people who were (whether they got it right or wrong) just trying to do their jobs to the best of their abilities.

I also find it very difficult to be delighted for people who make their grief so noisily public. Much like with the death of Princess Diana, people seem to have lost a sense of decorum.

 

[glasgowspur]

You're right, they should have done better and they didn't. For me, that falls a very long way short of the criminal prosecutions that those awful people up there are calling for.

You also have to take into account the fact that their decisions/actions were all framed around the general behaviour of football fans at the time. Whilst there was a need to see the fans into the ground safely, there was also a need to protect innocent fans and police from trouble makers. The police and stadium staff would have been equally negligent to just let the fans do what they wanted

That's the crux of the matter for me, the police made decisions in a very difficult situation. The fans, and I use the term very loosely, who acted unlawfully and put them in that position have walked away Scot free.
The police and authorities deserve criticism and blame, but not all of it.

Those killed were the proper fans, innocents who deserve justice. I just don't think they have had full justice.

 

[LutonSpurs]

Just seen interview on Newsnight and it seems one of those who died was a Spurs fan who met his mate who was a Liverpool fan as he had a car and his mate had a spare ticket and thought he'd join him and give him a lift there...

Yeah read about it here

Nice to see Mabbutt attended the funeral.

https://twitter.com/x/status/725082438565793794

 

[LutonSpurs]

If all people were sensible then there would be no need for crowd management and effective policing. People are expected to behave sensibly but it's natural that the civilians will make mistakes at such an event. That is why there are so many police, why the stadiums have safety checks, why crowd management is trained to police and stewards. The crowd behaved as expected and the authorities messed up and are accountable for the deaths. It really is that simple.