Hillsborough Disaster

[scaramanga]

I can't help but think that if it was any other club it would be different. I'm not talking about the day itself, their fans have been rightly exonerated.

This has obviously touched the lives of thousands of people, and how they mourn is their own business, sadly it's become a political rod to wield for others who wallow in faux grief for their own egregious ends.

It clearly goes much further than football.

It happened just as places like Liverpool were losing the fight against capitalism, modernisation and the gentrification of the country.

I believe they saw the result of the enquiry as another stick with which to beat their underworked, overpaid and undereducated workforce who were still fighting for the day's pay they thought was a basic human right, rather than something one earns.

 

[spitshine]

It has become part of Liverpools marketing. It is their way of building a them vs us mentality. Like its an exclusive club. Its now played as a sympathy card to which you can never dare to question.

You also never hear of Heysel disaster mentioned by the Liverpool fans.

I am personally of the opinion that dirty laundry shouldnt be put out in public.

96 died with 1000s scarred for life. I cant imagine the pain of the friends and relatives but grieve in piece and not make every club and person follow suit. Respects should be paid voluntarily.

Indeed. perhap go further to say they are using to increase popularity, elicit emotion from fans around the world, these new young fans who know little else.
the same could have happened again in Athens 2007 in the champions league final, many without tickets turning up. simialr to Heysel. Simply they just do not know how to behave they are wild when drink more so than most clubs

 

[Disco Benny]

I do think its time to draw a line under it. But, as a previous poster mentioned, people are now making money out of it (lawyers, newspapers, Liverpool etc), it was a terrible tragedy and the cover up was appalling, but its been 25 years now and it needs to be put to bed.

 

[Jordinho]

[tweet]455287584273756160[/tweet]

 

[spurs' magna carter]

Always been a classy club, just because they took a page to remember those who died?

F@ck off Fowler you pr!ck.

Yes, it's a decent thing to do but 'always a classy club'?

](*,)

 

[SteveAWOL]

96 people died at a football match through ill planning/control measures and then there was a cover up/shifting of the blame from authorities - putting the blame on those who died, which only recently has been admitted to.

it's a dark dark part of this countries recent history and i am not surprised it is still being marked with remembrance initiatives such as this one. (25 years being a significant anniversary so obviously going to be ramped up a bit)


more should be done about Bradford but in a way that is more club specific - the Hillsborough disaster could have happened to any club as was the way supporters were treated by the police/stadium control officials in this era. Our supporters nearly suffered a similar fate a year or so prior (as im sure some members of this board will confirm) which is partly why the FA will mark this day across the board.

I'm too young to remember this incident back in 1981 but it sounds like the police were, thankfully, slightly less incompetent that day.

The Hillsborough Disaster - In 1981 It Could Have Been Tottenham! - Hotspur HQ

Hillsborough; Spurs v Wolves. F.A.Cup semi-final, 1981 | Hillsborough Disaster

[video=youtube;jtzHVe2mEN0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0[/video]

 

[chancer]

The way Heysel has been airbrushed out of history makes me feel very uncomfortable.

 

[thfcsteff]

We moved on 24 years and 11 months ago. It's just the Liverpool fans that need to.

Were you at Hillsborough in 1981? I don't think 1989 should ever be forgotten.

 

[scaramanga]

Were you at Hillsborough in 1981? I don't think 1989 should ever be forgotten.

I'm not suggesting it should be forgotten, I just think the scousers should stop expecting the rest of the world to do their grieving for them.

Although now I think about it, forgetting it would mean we could all stand at football matches again.

 

[thfcsteff]

It clearly goes much further than football.

It happened just as places like Liverpool were losing the fight against capitalism, modernisation and the gentrification of the country.

I believe they saw the result of the enquiry as another stick with which to beat their underworked, overpaid and undereducated workforce who were still fighting for the day's pay they thought was a basic human right, rather than something one earns.

I trust the irony of Galeforce's comment "sadly it's become a political rod to wield for others who wallow in faux grief for their own egregious ends" has escaped you here? Incidentally, I believe you're 100% wrong. You appear to simply dislike anyone who doesn't fit into what appears to be a very narrow set of parameters for 'acceptable' life conduct…"underworked, overpaid"…Scara, you've described over half the financial industry there. An industry not based in Liverpool I might add...

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not suggesting it should be forgotten, I just think the scousers should stop expecting the rest of the world to do their grieving for them.

Although now I think about it, forgetting it would mean we could all stand at football matches again.

Remember who you have to thank for that happening, and remember how well it fits in with the financial side of football…lovely lady that she was…never also ignore the fact that between her and the red-tops, England and English fans were re-cast as enormous vile savages with no comparison anywhere else, despite blaring proof to the contrary. Those factors did as much as anything to contribute. I would love to be able to stand at matches again, but I don't blame the Taylor Report more than I blame the 'egregious political aims' (or whatever that phrase was) which sat behind it all...

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm too young to remember this incident back in 1981 but it sounds like the police were, thankfully, slightly less incompetent that day.

The Hillsborough Disaster - In 1981 It Could Have Been Tottenham! - Hotspur HQ

Hillsborough; Spurs v Wolves. F.A.Cup semi-final, 1981 | Hillsborough Disaster

[video=youtube;jtzHVe2mEN0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtzHVe2mEN0[/video]

Yes mate, this has been discussed in the past with some of us who were there commenting…same thing also nearly happened to me personally at QPR in the 3rd round...

 

[jts1882]

What I find amazing about the Hillsborough affair is how the people responsible for it have escaped blame and no one seems to be trying to determine who made the important decisions.

I can understand why the families want to know what happened and are angry about Sun headlines and the police cover-up, but this was all after the event. People made mistakes on the day. For instance, the police commander, who was new to such events at Hillsborough, made the fateful decision to open the gate, but he was trying to prevent crushing outside. The bigger question is why was the game being played there?

After the Spurs incident Hillsborough was removed from the semi-final list. After about five years it was put back on the list, despite not having the appropriate safety certificates. Then after less serious incidents in 1987 and 1988 the game still went ahead in 1989.

Who was responsible for the decision to allow the semi-finals at Hillsborough? Who at the FA, at Sheffield Council and at Sheffield Wednesday lobbied for and approved the decision? Without this decision the whole disaster would not have happened, yet this is never addressed. The police who falsified their reports should be prosecuted, but they are not the cause of the tragedy.

 

[Sheffield Spur]

What I find amazing about the Hillsborough affair is how the people responsible for it have escaped blame and no one seems to be trying to determine who made the important decisions.

I can understand why the families want to know what happened and are angry about Sun headlines and the police cover-up, but this was all after the event. People made mistakes on the day. For instance, the police commander, who was new to such events at Hillsborough, made the fateful decision to open the gate, but he was trying to prevent crushing outside. The bigger question is why was the game being played there?

After the Spurs incident Hillsborough was removed from the semi-final list. After about five years it was put back on the list, despite not having the appropriate safety certificates. Then after less serious incidents in 1987 and 1988 the game still went ahead in 1989.

Who was responsible for the decision to allow the semi-finals at Hillsborough? Who at the FA, at Sheffield Council and at Sheffield Wednesday lobbied for and approved the decision? Without this decision the whole disaster would not have happened, yet this is never addressed. The police who falsified their reports should be prosecuted, but they are not the cause of the tragedy.

My thoughts exactly.

Three bodies have - so far - escaped without any penalty or punishment at all. Or proper criticism.

SWFC. Unfit ground. No safety certificate? Had been unsafe for years? When Dave Richards, or Mandaric, took over at SWFC, did they take over collective responsibility of the clubs past, and liabilities? The Chairman in 1989 at the time of the disaster was Bert McGee. His attitude to football supporters and safety was disgusting. He left as Chairman in 1990. Very timely! He is now dead.

The following extract is from the indicated article below.

Sheffield Wednesday applied to host the semi-final, which 54,000 people attended, and semi-finals in 1981, 1987 and 1988, despite the club's safety certificate for Hillsborough not having been updated since 1979.

There was a serious crush in 1981 on the Leppings Lane terrace in which 38 people were injured. The police moved supporters out, they told the club's then chairman, Bert McGee, to avoid "a real chance of fatalities". Shockingly, the panel found in the minutes of a post-match meeting, McGee replied: "******** – no one would have been killed."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...nsation-lost-ticket-revenue-Hillsborough.html

So Hillsborough had not had a safety certificate for 10 years??!!

Sheffield City Council. A department there deals with safety certificates. Or rather, in this case, they didn't, if it didn't have one.

The FA. Who chose venues for semi finals? Why the FA of course! Did they perform due diligence? Especially after the near disaster in 1981. They sanctioned a venue in Hillsborough without a valid safety certificate. Too busy doing lunch, was it? Not an organisation that many have a lot of time for. I'm one of the many. How have they got away with it..... so far?

I have always thought that many heads should have rolled, a long time ago. Closing ranks by 'The Establishment?' Freemasonry involvement?' A lot of 'important' people escaped scot-free following the disaster, and that stinks, IMHO.

http://www.theguardian.com/football...ilies-sheffield-wednesday-manslaughter-charge

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news...-wednesday-issue-hillsborough-apology-3334705

If the chickens are - shortly - coming home to roost, its long overdue.

I was at Hillsborough in 1981. Thankfully on the kop opposite Leppings Lane. It looked pretty horrible.

I also had a ticket for Leppings Lane for the fateful match in 1989, with a work Liverpool fan mate. The girlfriend won with shopping on that occasion. Clearly women do know best.

 

[chicken_badge]

Liverpool the football club and the city in general often provoke negative emotions from people who aren't part of it, more so than say Saudi Sportswashing Machine. I wonder if this has clouded people's perception of this.

This was a terrible tragedy, and the way it unfolded made it even more shocking. If you knew one of the Juve fans who died at Heysel, or someone killed at Valley Parade, then that would be just as big a personal tragedy. But this game just felt more real and shocking to the general public.

A lot of lessons learnt that day, and I do believe that English football has moved forward since then. Part of that is from remembering the 96 who died, and vowing never again.

 

[7percent]

yep, often it's not a case of "this is very sad" but "look at me, I care more than you!"

F**k that. I found out before you. I posted it FIRST.

Also I'm sick of Hillsborough being used as a reason not to allow standing at football matches. They do it every week in the bundesliga and technology/crowd control etc has come on a hell of a long way in the last 25 years.

 

[thfcsteff]

Someone mentioned Heysel…look…it's well known that there was hooligan hang-over from the 1980 Euro Champs in Italy between England and Italy as well as the previous season's final in Rome when Liverpool supporters were attacked by scooter gangs, …it culminated in Heysel where there were Chelsea, West Ham, Birmingham, National Front and others were there, there was provocation, the stadium was a ****ing ****hole and the organization a joke. Sorry ANYONE who was going to football regularly at this time will tell you that there were fights and 'charges' everywhere. This was horrible but not 'just' Liverpool supporters. I know it's really trendy and cool to bash Liverpool here -hey, have at it and have fun!- but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good whipping session eh?! Seriously! In closing, OF COURSE there were some stupid and macaronic Liverpool fans involved…but they acted far from alone. And trust me, we all had our ****ers…as we continue to (sadly)...

For anyone who is too young to know the real stories, or anyone else who gives a toss, here are a few links you might want to read.

http://bianconeri.tripod.com/heysel.html

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

 

[scaramanga]

SWFC. Unfit ground. No safety certificate?

despite the club's safety certificate for Hillsborough not having been updated since 1979.

So Hillsborough had not had a safety certificate for 10 years??!!

Sheffield City Council. A department there deals with safety certificates. Or rather, in this case, they didn't, if it didn't have one.

I'm not sure what you're accusing them of here, not having a safety certificate or having an old one? You seem a little unsure yourself.

Does anyone here know how often a safety certificate is meant to be issued? I did some brief searching and there's not much to be found, but I get the distinct impression that they get issued when a stand/ground is substantially altered and that certificate covers the life of that stand/ground. In which case, the question becomes more about when the ground was last altered.

 

[scaramanga]

Someone mentioned Heysel…look…it's well known that there was hooligan hang-over from the 1980 Euro Champs in Italy between England and Italy as well as the previous season's final in Rome when Liverpool supporters were attacked by scooter gangs, …it culminated in Heysel where there were Chelsea, West Ham, Birmingham, National Front and others were there, there was provocation, the stadium was a ****ing ****hole and the organization a joke. Sorry ANYONE who was going to football regularly at this time will tell you that there were fights and 'charges' everywhere. This was horrible but not 'just' Liverpool supporters. I know it's really trendy and cool to bash Liverpool here -hey, have at it and have fun!- but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good whipping session eh?! Seriously! In closing, OF COURSE there were some stupid and macaronic Liverpool fans involved…but they acted far from alone. And trust me, we all had our ****ers…as we continue to (sadly)...

For anyone who is too young to know the real stories, or anyone else who gives a toss, here are a few links you might want to read.

http://bianconeri.tripod.com/heysel.html

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2013/05/what-about-justice-for-heysel/

I don't think anyone's saying that we should be bashing Liverpool, merely that those same people who ask for Hillsborough to be at the forefront of our minds in perpetuity shouldn't be able to airbrush Heysel out of history.

I wonder if it were decreed that every Hillsborough silence/banner/public outpouring of grief required equal time/attention paid to Heysel, just how often we'd still hear about it.

 

[scaramanga]

I trust the irony of Galeforce's comment "sadly it's become a political rod to wield for others who wallow in faux grief for their own egregious ends" has escaped you here? Incidentally, I believe you're 100% wrong. You appear to simply dislike anyone who doesn't fit into what appears to be a very narrow set of parameters for 'acceptable' life conduct…"underworked, overpaid"…Scara, you've described over half the financial industry there. An industry not based in Liverpool I might add...

I'm not sure if I've misunderstood what you're saying here or if one or both of us has misunderstood galeforce, but I don't get what you mean there.

As for acceptable life conduct, that's pretty simple really. Work hard, get paid whatever the rarity of your skills require. Don't expect a living to be given to you - especially not from those you claim to dislike intensely due to some ridiculous reverse snobbery. Not much to it.