Harry Winks

[Bedfordspurs]

Good post. I did think that the lay-off seemed to have given him a yard of pace but he’s lost the ability to play his snappy forward passes which was the thing that lost excited me about him when we broke through as none of Dier Sissoko Wanyama or dembele really do this. His (relative) downturn in form could we be attributed to the fact he’s not got the security of the three injured cms who are very disciplined in their positioning. Whether he ever makes the next step or not I’d like to keep him as homegrown players are very useful a squad players reinforce the managers ethos and are always pushing the first team players whilst accepting of a squad role (another one from the Fergie playbook)

He was playing those passes when paired with Dier

 

[DeanoAustin]

I struggle with Winks. I love the fact that he has come up through the ranks and is a Tottenham lad and I really want him to do well, but I just don’t see it. Maybe this could be down to the fact that due to circumstances I have to watch the boys on TV rather than being at the game, but I do struggle to understand why everyone thinks he is great.

Having said that, Poch rates him - and that is what counts - Poch has probably forgotten more about football than I know!

Are you mad? Geniuses like me on a message board know more than Poch - if only he'd read our posts and act. Like those times I said Sissoko was Ali Dia reincarnated and should be marched out of the club, Harry Kane will never make a striker in the Premier League, Eriksen is too wishy washy to be a top player, Alli is too young to be thrown in, Dier is never a centre mid, get Toby out of the club. If Poch listened to the likes of me, we'd be much better off.

 

[Raziel]

Good post. I did think that the lay-off seemed to have given him a yard of pace but he’s lost the ability to play his snappy forward passes which was the thing that lost excited me about him when we broke through as none of Dier Sissoko Wanyama or dembele really do this. His (relative) downturn in form could we be attributed to the fact he’s not got the security of the three injured cms who are very disciplined in their positioning. Whether he ever makes the next step or not I’d like to keep him as homegrown players are very useful a squad players reinforce the managers ethos and are always pushing the first team players whilst accepting of a squad role (another one from the Fergie playbook)

He's got the security of Sissoko doing a fudge load of dirty work, harrying, covering, tackling.

Like a few others here, really like Winks, like that he is home grown, but he's not good enough (now), and just don't see it.

The weak links in the side right now is Winks +the two FB positions (a fit Rose could cover the LB, but RB +CM has a ton of room for improvement)

It's an amazing statement that I'd be comfortable with Sissoko & Dier rotating on one of those CM positions if we could get someone to replace the Dembele/Winks slot.

 

[elltrev]

He's got the security of Sissoko doing a fudge load of dirty work, harrying, covering, tackling.

Like a few others here, really like Winks, like that his is home grown, but he's not good enough (now), and just don't see it.

The weak links in the side right now is Winks +the two FB positions (a fit Rose could cover the LB, but RB +CM has a ton of room for improvement)

It's an amazing statement that I'd be comfortable with Sissoko & Dier rotating on one of those CM positions if we could get someone to replace the Dembele/Winks slot.

Personally I think it's more specifically about Winks being the deepest midfielder that means he can't play to his strengths on the ball, rather than him lacking defensive security from other players.

 

[Raziel]

Personally I think it's more specifically about Winks being the deepest midfielder that means he can't play to his strengths on the ball, rather than him lacking defensive security from other players.

What is his strength? (not being a dingdong), seems he's just tidy ...

There was an interview with Eriksen where they asked him (Eriksen) about when he's asked to play deep, and his response is he wants to be anywhere he can get the ball …

Not bricking on the kid, he's a good talent, tidy, loves the club, but from my perspective is a reasonably easy upgrade (and we need to upgrade the side)

 

[elltrev]

What is his strength? (not being a dingdong), seems he's just tidy ...

There was an interview with Eriksen where they asked him (Eriksen) about when he's asked to play deep, and his response is he wants to be anywhere he can get the ball …

Not bricking on the kid, he's a good talent, tidy, loves the club, but from my perspective is a reasonably easy upgrade (and we need to upgrade the side)

Personally I think he has three major strengths (at least when he's been on top form) - a) the ability to escape pressure and make space for himself, b) the ability to dribble and drive forward from central midfield, and c) the desire and ability to play quick and accurate forward passes.

I also think defensively he's quick, fit and very hard working.

Do you think you've ever seen those traits in him?

I agree though that he hasn't shown those on-the-ball traits as much recently - in particular he's been giving the ball away in dangerous situations a few times. Maybe that's hurt his confidence and that's why he's started playing a bit more conservatively?

 

[Raziel]

Personally I think he has three major strengths (at least when he's been on top form) - a) the ability to escape pressure and make space for himself, b) the ability to dribble and drive forward from central midfield, and c) the desire and ability to play quick and accurate forward passes.

I also think defensively he's quick, fit and very hard working.

Do you think you've ever seen those traits in him?

I agree though that he hasn't shown those on-the-ball traits as much recently - in particular he's been giving the ball away in dangerous situations a few times. Maybe that's hurt his confidence and that's why he's started playing a bit more conservatively?

Hard working (as is everyone Poch coaches), he used to seem like he was developing that shield the ball capability, but haven't seen it recently. He's been pretty bad a certain giveaways recently.

It may be a confidence thing, or it may be at top form he's capable, but reverted to norm (something I think Tripps & Davies have done)

 

[elltrev]

Hard working (as is everyone Poch coaches), he used to seem like he was developing that shield the ball capability, but haven't seen it recently. He's been pretty bad a certain giveaways recently.

It may be a confidence thing, or it may be at top form he's capable, but reverted to norm (something I think Tripps & Davies have done)

Fair enough - agree he's not stood out recently, time will tell if this is his actual level or if he's going through a dip in form for one of the reasons mentioned. Hope it's the latter!

 

[AdamB]

Winks is 22. All young players have up and downs, and times when they improve more quickly or more slowly. Remember the game in teh Bernabeu when he was about our only CM and was simply outstanding?

Need to just get behind him - if he's not up to scratch as a 25 year old then sell him (similar to what we did with Townsend) but for now he's fine

If we actually had a senior creative CM who was fit, as Dembele should be, then there would be less pressure on Winks as he could be given breaks when off form. At the moment, he's playing every 3 days out of necessity

 

[Robspur12]

What is his strength? (not being a dingdong), seems he's just tidy ...

There was an interview with Eriksen where they asked him (Eriksen) about when he's asked to play deep, and his response is he wants to be anywhere he can get the ball …

Not bricking on the kid, he's a good talent, tidy, loves the club, but from my perspective is a reasonably easy upgrade (and we need to upgrade the side)

I don't often disagree with your posts mate, but regarding Winks I must say I really do. What are his strengths? In my opinion it is to take the ball under pressure, hold off the opposition press then move the ball progressively. He does that better than either Dier or Sissoko imho. I think he is a terrific little player.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I hear what you’re saying, but I think that’s partly because he’s currently having to be played as a holding midfielder - indeed as the only central midfielder full stop, alongside attacking midfielders and forwards. I think it’s not his natural role, and doesn’t allow him to play to his strengths and show his true potential, as he has to play more conservatively due to his defensive responsibility and deeper position on the pitch. I actually think his solid performances are a reflection of his maturity to be able to play that unnatural role at his age.

We’ll see once we have Dier back, and he can play his more natural role. Personally even now I see some of the things in him that make me think he can be a great CM - mostly his ability to make space for himself under pressure.

Very much this for me. Playing with Sissoko is a massive compromise to Winks, and he is now "taking one for the team" rather than playing to his strengths.

And I think he is doing ok. Showing massive maturity and discipline, even if he isnt really shining. And still he is playing more balls forward than anyone else.

I cant wait for when we get Dier back and ditch Sissoko so Winks can really flourish. Having the right players beside and ahead of him he will really be able to show how good he is.

As it is, Im quite impressed he has been holding the midfield together as well as he has - even though its clearly not 100% working.

 

[elltrev]

Winks is 22. All young players have up and downs, and times when they improve more quickly or more slowly. Remember the game in teh Bernabeu when he was about our only CM and was simply outstanding?

Need to just get behind him - if he's not up to scratch as a 25 year old then sell him (similar to what we did with Townsend) but for now he's fine

If we actually had a senior creative CM who was fit, as Dembele should be, then there would be less pressure on Winks as he could be given breaks when off form. At the moment, he's playing every 3 days out of necessity

Also at home vs Madrid:

I think that video shows some of his strengths, at 21 no less, that mean some of us are still excited about him. Personally I see no reason why he can't recapture that kind of form.

 

[Kandi1977]

Personally I think he has three major strengths (at least when he's been on top form) - a) the ability to escape pressure and make space for himself, b) the ability to dribble and drive forward from central midfield, and c) the desire and ability to play quick and accurate forward passes.

I also think defensively he's quick, fit and very hard working.

Do you think you've ever seen those traits in him?

I agree though that he hasn't shown those on-the-ball traits as much recently - in particular he's been giving the ball away in dangerous situations a few times. Maybe that's hurt his confidence and that's why he's started playing a bit more conservatively?

a) Not seen that at all this season. Quite the opposite in fact! He's often not played the obvious pass, but instead held on to the ball, invited pressure, and lost the ball.
b) haven't seen much of that .
c) not much of that either. He mostly just gets the ball in a central position, and plays it left or right.

He's neat and tidy and should be in our squad, but imo he's the player we could most easily upgrade on right now.

 

[Raziel]

I don't often disagree with your posts mate, but regarding Winks I must say I really do. What are his strengths? In my opinion it is to take the ball under pressure, hold off the opposition press then move the ball progressively. He does that better than either Dier or Sissoko imho. I think he is a terrific little player.

Trying not to take this down a "beat down on Winks thread" because that isn't the point.

The issue and I think @Kandi1977 is on the same page isn't if Winks is better at passing than Dier/Sissoko (they play a much more physical role than him), it's if a midfield of Winks +1 of Dier/Sissoko is good enough for us right now. In my opinion it just isn't, we need a quality CM next to a rotation of Dier/Sissoko with Winks being a bench option, not a starter.

As others have mentioned, perhaps in a year or two Winks will be good enough, just feel on a consistent basis we will find games tougher if we don't do something in that CM position.

 

[MKSpur]

He's got the security of Sissoko doing a fudge load of dirty work, harrying, covering, tackling.

Like a few others here, really like Winks, like that he is home grown, but he's not good enough (now), and just don't see it.

The weak links in the side right now is Winks +the two FB positions (a fit Rose could cover the LB, but RB +CM has a ton of room for improvement)

It's an amazing statement that I'd be comfortable with Sissoko & Dier rotating on one of those CM positions if we could get someone to replace the Dembele/Winks slot.

I agree on your statements about areas we can upgrade except in an ideal world Winks would be 3rd choice or 5th choice depending on what CM role you gave him. By the same token Dier wouldn’t be first choice IMO if everyone was fit but it’s a squad game and even Emirates Marketing Project don’t seem to be able to find 2 world class performers for every position.
In terms of playing with Sissoko, he covers a lot more ground than Wanyama and dembele and is a lot less predictable in his passing. Whether it’s his partner, the lay off or instruction he’s not been outstanding or looking as potentially good as when he first came on (possibly as they were cameos, Skipp was more adventurous off the bench than his full debut) but given his place in the pecking order we could have done a lot worse.

It also may be that we are playing a diamond which puts Winks at the base with erisken to the left and Sissoko to the right, which also could be making him more conservative with his passing.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Very much this for me. Playing with Sissoko is a massive compromise to Winks, and he is now "taking one for the team" rather than playing to his strengths.

And I think he is doing ok. Showing massive maturity and discipline, even if he isnt really shining. And still he is playing more balls forward than anyone else.

I cant wait for when we get Dier back and ditch Sissoko so Winks can really flourish. Having the right players beside and ahead of him he will really be able to show how good he is.

As it is, Im quite impressed he has been holding the midfield together as well as he has - even though its clearly not 400% working.

When Dier returns I think it will instead be Winks who gives up his place in the team as opposed to Sissoko; who's performances have been far better than Winks' this season.

 

[StephenH]

When Dier returns I think it will instead be Winks who gives up his place in the team as opposed to Sissoko; who's performances have been far better than Winks' this season.

Winks is a good lad but Sissoko is built for the job.

 

[parklane1]

Winks is 22. All young players have up and downs, and times when they improve more quickly or more slowly. Remember the game in teh Bernabeu when he was about our only CM and was simply outstanding?

Need to just get behind him - if he's not up to scratch as a 25 year old then sell him (similar to what we did with Townsend) but for now he's fine

If we actually had a senior creative CM who was fit, as Dembele should be, then there would be less pressure on Winks as he could be given breaks when off form. At the moment, he's playing every 3 days out of necessity

Very good post and sums up my thinking as well. I think Winks is going to be a very good player but he is not one that is going to stand out to the fans as much as some of our players do. He ( despite what i have heard some fan suggest) rarely gives the ball away and is always availible to take a pass from team mates.

He keeps the ball moving and the more he plays the better he will become.

 

[Jurgen the German]

When Dier returns I think it will instead be Winks who gives up his place in the team as opposed to Sissoko; who's performances have been far better than Winks' this season.

I'd argue that out of the 5 (Winks, Dier, Dembele, Wanyama and Sissoko) Winks should be the one who starts the majority of the games and everyone else should be competing to play alongside him. I agree Sissoko has been excellent though.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

It also may be that we are playing a diamond which puts Winks at the base with Eriksen-sen-sen to the left and Sissoko to the right, which also could be making him more conservative with his passing.

I am inclined to think it is this, HOW he has been used, which is the issue - not him as a player.

Personally I think he is doing a decent job in less than ideal circumstance.

When Dier returns I think it will instead be Winks who gives up his place in the team as opposed to Sissoko; who's performances have been far better than Winks' this season.

Theres a whole can of worms in there, so Im hesitant to get into it to much - but short version for me - despite his improvement Sissoko is still no where near good enough and more hinderance than help.