Harry Kane MBE

[Bedfordspurs]

Kane has just come off a 30 goal season and you think he wouldn't score 70 in 4 seasons?

The centre back shunted to right back?
The one whose place in his national side is taken by another centre back okaying out of position?
He did score a great goal for France once

 

[harr1984]

Lewandowski is undoubtedly a world class player. He was mustard for Dortmund as well, not just for Bayern. If he had played in this country we would be falling over ourselves to praise him. The only people who don’t recognise him as a great striker are probably the same people who say Messi hasn’t played in the premier league so he can’t be considered to be better than Ronaldo.

Indeed. It's funny, I don't remember many on here questioning whether medals would mean anything to Lewa when he moved to Bayern? The top football clubs sign the top players, like the best F1 cars have the best drivers etc etc

Now just let Kane go and do what elite players do. He deserves to know what it tastes like....

 

[Lilbaz]

all of them, as an extra data point

Disagree. If the question is who has scored the most league goals in the top flight of english football the answer should be simple. No whataboutism.

If the question is who was the best striker, the answer maybe different.

 

[scaramanga]

It doesn’t matter what the agent ‘recommends’ the player makes the decision after being presented the facts around each potential deal.

Players move agencies reasonably often, typically moving to bigger agencies with more contacts more likely to be able to maximise their earning potential.

Please tell me you're not suggesting that the agent can't be at fault if the player makes the wrong decision.

If the FSA took a similar view on a mortgage broker offering a bad deal that earned them a huge commission, half the country would be bankrupt.

 

[Lilbaz]

Name me one elite player who has never won a trophy? In fact, name one who has never one a league title, WC, Euro or CL?

Who considers them elite though? I posted a youtube earlier about a player that many argentinians (including maradona and bielsa) consider as the greatest ever.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Absolutely. Plenty of very good players haven't won trophies. And plenty of relatively average or mediocre ones have.

But if the argument is that Kane is an elite player and he is the only elite player in the 100 years+ history of the game to never win a trophy, that's stretching credibility IMO.

Is it?
There are exceptions to a lot of rules, why can't Kane be an exception to this one?

 

[SpurMeUp]

@DeanoAustin if Kane had won an FA cup with us you would perceive him differently. That trophy next to his name you’d find more impressive than being the leagues all-time top scorer. Really!?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Is it?
There are exceptions to a lot of rules, why can't Kane be an exception to this one?

Well, as @Lilbaz rightly points out, we're dealing with subjective labels here I guess.

However, for me, Kane wouldn't be considered truly elite without some trophies to point to. You can be sure he knows the lack of trophies is a big mark against any claim to greatness too.

 

[DeanoAustin]

@DeanoAustin if Kane had won an FA cup with us you would perceive him differently. That trophy next to his name you’d find more impressive than being the leagues all-time top scorer. Really!?

No, don't think so. The FA Cup isn't a major trophy anymore. It probably needs league titles, Champions Leagues, World Cups or Euros to put him in that bracket for me.

 

[Lilbaz]

Well, as @Lilbaz rightly points out, we're dealing with subjective labels here I guess.

However, for me, Kane wouldn't be considered truly elite without some trophies to point to. You can be sure he knows the lack of trophies is a big mark against any claim to greatness too.

You also have the other question. Does kane want to win trophies to be considered elite?. Or does he just want to win trophies for the feeling of winning something?

He might just like the feeling of winning games and hates losing. So wants a club that wins lots of games.

 

[SpurMeUp]

No, don't think so. The FA Cup isn't a major trophy anymore. It probably needs league titles, Champions Leagues, World Cups or Euros to put him in that bracket for me.

Okay if pool can scored a couple of own goals in the CL final, you would consider Kane as elite, but don’t now? This would make Kane elite in your eyes but the moniker of being the all time PL record scorer would be less impressive?

 

[DeanoAustin]

Okay if pool can scored a couple of own goals in the CL final, you would consider Kane as elite, but don’t now? This would make Kane elite in your eyes but the moniker of being the all time PL record scorer would be less impressive?

We're getting into extreme whataboutery now.

Elite is a subjective term. For me, I'll look at Kane's record when he's done and decide whether I consider him one of the all time greats. At this point I don't because he's won nothing. And when I think of all the players that I do consider great - they all have trophies in common. And if you looked at all the players you consider truly great, I'd be surprised if they all haven't won something.

 

[SpurMeUp]

We're getting into extreme whataboutery now.

Elite is a subjective term. For me, I'll look at Kane's record when he's done and decide whether I consider him one of the all time greats. At this point I don't because he's won nothing. And when I think of all the players that I do consider great - they all have trophies in common. And if you looked at all the players you consider truly great, I'd be surprised if they all haven't won something.

We started with you saying the all time PL record was less impressive than a trophy to your judgment of whether Kane is one of the very best. It’s not whataboutism it’s simply whether your perception would change had we won against pool - presumably yes from what you said previously. And unless you’ve changed your mind, you’d hold that CL win in higher regard than him being the all time PL scorer.

 

[DeanoAustin]

We started with you saying the all time PL record was less impressive than a trophy to your judgment of whether Kane is one of the very best. It’s not whataboutism it’s simply whether your perception would change had we won against pool - presumably yes from what you said previously. And unless you’ve changed your mind, you’d hold that CL win in higher regard than him being the all time PL scorer.

Not really. I said that the PL record means little in my view because it starts from an arbitrary point in time (1992). He could get that record and still be behind Shearer in terms of top flight goals. And he'll finish miles behind Greaves. That he's behind Tony Cottee in terms of top flight goals right now says to me that "the record" is more hype than substance. I'm not intending to completely brick on it. Kane's been an incredible footballer for us, I love him to bits, but I just don't buy that the record alone will define him as truly great. And if he does break Shearer's record and over the next two decades several players pass him on that list, does he still get classed as a great because he once held a record?

The aim of sport is to win games and win trophies. The truly great players all win medals. Every player I consider great has won league titles and Champions Leagues. Because, for me, it's more than just doing what you do well. It's about doing it well on the big occasion. About helping to get your team over the line to a big prize. Kane's never done that and he's had opportunities. That's not to lay the blame at his feet, not by a long way, but he could have pushed us on to trophies and didn't.

Every player I consider to be truly great has won trophies and played a massive part in those trophy wins. That's not to say I've sat there and constructed a list of my great players based on what they won. I've termed them great based on what I saw of them - and they all happen to have one thing in common - they've won trophies. And with all of them, I can remember massive games where they produced. Again, I'm not trying to rubbish Kane's achievements but what have been his career defining performances and what did they result in?

 

[billyiddo]

This argument really paints a picture of how lucky we have been to hold on to Kane for so long - he's not going to get credit from the masses unless he leaves us to play for a team that is financially dominant in it's domestic league.

 

[DeanoAustin]

This argument really paints a picture of how lucky we have been to hold on to Kane for so long - he's not going to get credit from the masses unless he leaves us to play for a team that is financially dominant in it's domestic league.

And whatever our differing opinions on Kane's legacy, I think we can all agree on that.

 

[Baleforce]

Who considers them elite though? I posted a youtube earlier about a player that many argentinians (including maradona and bielsa) consider as the greatest ever.

I mentioned Him too

 

[SpurMeUp]

This argument really paints a picture of how lucky we have been to hold on to Kane for so long - he's not going to get credit from the masses unless he leaves us to play for a team that is financially dominant in it's domestic league.

I think it is. Playing for an elite team, somhow makith the man (or player), in many peolpes eyes. But is Bayern big enough? Barca, Real, United probably rank higher.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not really. I said that the PL record means little in my view because it starts from an arbitrary point in time (1992). He could get that record and still be behind Shearer in terms of top flight goals. And he'll finish miles behind Greaves. That he's behind Tony Cottee in terms of top flight goals right now says to me that "the record" is more hype than substance. I'm not intending to completely brick on it. Kane's been an incredible footballer for us, I love him to bits, but I just don't buy that the record alone will define him as truly great. And if he does break Shearer's record and over the next two decades several players pass him on that list, does he still get classed as a great because he once held a record?

The aim of sport is to win games and win trophies. The truly great players all win medals. Every player I consider great has won league titles and Champions Leagues. Because, for me, it's more than just doing what you do well. It's about doing it well on the big occasion. About helping to get your team over the line to a big prize. Kane's never done that and he's had opportunities. That's not to lay the blame at his feet, not by a long way, but he could have pushed us on to trophies and didn't.

Every player I consider to be truly great has won trophies and played a massive part in those trophy wins. That's not to say I've sat there and constructed a list of my great players based on what they won. I've termed them great based on what I saw of them - and they all happen to have one thing in common - they've won trophies. And with all of them, I can remember massive games where they produced. Again, I'm not trying to rubbish Kane's achievements but what have been his career defining performances and what did they result in?

I think its just an interesting way to view things. Other clubs fans,and indeed Spurs fans, have used the trophies thing to berrate us and Kane. But we can say with some certenty that being ranked inthe all time top goal sccorers list is harder, and rarer, than a tophy. Had we scored a couple of fluky goals in the CL final and won, Kane would still be the same player. The move to an elite club is maybe the other variable here. And I think Kane just wants to experience that. Which is fair enough.

When he signs for them I'll celebrate his brilliance for us. Watching him turn into one of the worlds best - constantly advancing and develpoing - was one of the most inspiring journeys in sport to watch let alone at Spurs. The fixation with trophys is our afflication. It doesn't define my support, Kane's ability, or my enjoyment. And don't know why it seems to define others. Especially in an era of club sides built on oil wells.

 

[DeanoAustin]

I think its just an interesting way to view things. Other clubs fans,and indeed Spurs fans, have used the trophies thing to berrate us and Kane. But we can say with some certenty that being ranked inthe all time top goal sccorers list is harder, and rarer, than a tophy. Had we scored a couple of fluky goals in the CL final and won, Kane would still be the same player. The move to an elite club is maybe the other variable here. And I think Kane just wants to experience that. Which is fair enough.

When he signs for them I'll celebrate his brilliance for us. Watching him turn into one of the worlds best - constantly advancing and develpoing - was one of the most inspiring journeys in sport to watch let alone at Spurs. The fixation with trophys is our afflication. It doesn't define my support, Kane's ability, or my enjoyment. And don't know why it seems to define others. Especially in an era of club sides built on oil wells.

Fair enough. I respect your view even if I don’t agree. And, just to be clear, I’m not saying the player with the most medals is the best and medals are the only yardstick to measure greatness. I just believe they’re a vital component of that equation.

We’re probably going to have to agree to disagree but like you, if and when Kane goes I’ll also celebrate a lad who has far exceeded my expectations of what he could become, a lad I’ve marvelled at watching and a lad who is one of our all time greats.

If he’s to go, my sincere hope is he goes and scratches whatever itch he has and comes back triumphantly to break Shearers record and pick up a trophy or two with us. Fairytale stuff maybe but if you haven’t got hope, what have you got…