Football and Homophobia

[Aksolotl]

It's a matter of traditional family values. It's a matter of western snobism - only our way of life is right, no place for other cultures, traditions - islam, china, russia, any religions - mistakes of history. and you call me narrowminded. try to consider this way. I don't like islam, china, any religion, but I admit there are other cultures, points of view in the world, but do not crash my values. Try to understand all complexity of the problem.
and what's the **** about killing gays on the streets in russia?? Never heard about it. Maybe drunken dancing bear killed a couple with balalayka, dunno.
"Gay people did not choose to be gay" - so what? maniacs did not choose to be maniacs.
I agree we have problem with racism, but the same in Italy, Poland etc. and if in my language we use words black and negro we don't want to abuse them, it's just language.
We have a lot problems here in Russia and i want to change a lot in my country. But there are basic principles in my blood and i don't want you to decide for me. cos you're different, it's not right just to do everything in Russia like in Great Britain. We're so different and no need to be the same.

 

[thfcsteff]

It's a matter of traditional family values. It's a matter of western snobism - only our way of life is right, no place for other cultures, traditions - islam, china, russia, any religions - mistakes of history. and you call me narrowminded. try to consider this way. I don't like islam, china, any religion, but I admit there are other cultures, points of view in the world, but do not crash my values. Try to understand all complexity of the problem.
and what's the **** about killing gays on the streets in russia?? Never heard about it. Maybe drunken dancing bear killed a couple with balalayka, dunno.
"Gay people did not choose to be gay" - so what? maniacs did not choose to be maniacs.
I agree we have problem with racism, but the same in Italy, Poland etc. and if in my language we use words black and negro we don't want to abuse them, it's just language.
We have a lot problems here in Russia and i want to change a lot in my country. But there are basic principles in my blood and i don't want you to decide for me. cos you're different, it's not right just to do everything in Russia like in Great Britain. We're so different and no need to be the same.

Ha ha, you don't have a clue as to my background or cultures. What ********! I absolutely respect everyone's right to their cultural beliefs, however I do not accept that said-cultural beliefs/differences always need to be expressed. If I was in an Islamic country I would generally abide by their rules and customs. I would not go around correcting people who's belief systems are different to mine.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more your argument makes me laugh. You have no idea what some of us think or believe. But the BIGGEST thing is abut having respect. You don't have to agree but you should respect. I'd 'respect' your right to an opinion, but if you choose to express it then deal with the consequences of those who don't want to hear it! It's absolute ******** that you would hide homophobia and racism behind 'cultural differences'...and trust me, I am very much aware of how isolated from immigration/'other cultures' the former communist countries were.

This is not about being 'different' it's about hiding behind the big 'c' word without (evidently) doing anything much to try and educate yourself. 'Traditional family values' BTW, WTF are those? Shall we discuss them?

Oh, and 'try to understand the basic complexity of the problem'? In what way is this a complex issue? People should be free to believe what they want. That does not always mean people should be free to express that opinion wherever they like. If people don't believe in GHod, and think GHod is pathetic, does that give them the right to parade through a church announcing it? No mate. And if they did, I'd expect them to get the requisite amount of grief!!!

 

[Aksolotl]

Ha ha, you don't have a clue as to my background or cultures. What ********! I absolutely respect everyone's right to their cultural beliefs, however I do not accept that said-cultural beliefs/differences always need to be expressed. If I was in an Islamic country I would generally abide by their rules and customs. I would not go around correcting people who's belief systems are different to mine.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more your argument makes me laugh. You have no idea what some of us think or believe. But the BIGGEST thing is abut having respect. You don't have to agree but you should respect. I'd 'respect' your right to an opinion, but if you choose to express it then deal with the consequences of those who don't want to hear it! It's absolute ******** that you would hide homophobia and racism behind 'cultural differences'...and trust me, I am very much aware of how isolated from immigration/'other cultures' the former communist countries were.

This is not about being 'different' it's about hiding behind the big 'c' word without (evidently) doing anything much to try and educate yourself. 'Traditional family values' BTW, WTF are those? Shall we discuss them?

Can't understand about what racism are you talking.
As for homophobia - Why can't a matter of tolerance be a part of culture context? Look at islamic countries, for example. it's a reality.
what a sense of superiority in your post. Please, more patience speaking with racist homophob from isolated former communist country.
It's really strange to read about isolation...man we got internet, western movies, books, shows - i like western rock music, monty python, ardbeg etc. my sister lives in London. Most of russian people consumes western products of art and entertaiment. But still no massive pro gay movement. Maybe there will be mindshift in future Russia, but maybe England will become islamic.

 

[Aksolotl]

Russia has so much blood on their hands through history - I'm not surprised at the mindset.

Is it true that it's alao cultural not to show your kids too much affection? What I have been told and it's through people with experience dealing them.

So tolerate from you. Every big country has blood on their hands. Just remember slavery in England. And find information about russian casualties in WW2.

As for children - I don't think so, but it's obvious Russians are more outwardly restrained then westerners.

 

[Aksolotl]

Oh, and 'try to understand the basic complexity of the problem'? In what way is this a complex issue? People should be free to believe what they want. That does not always mean people should be free to express that opinion wherever they like. If people don't believe in GHod, and think GHod is pathetic, does that give them the right to parade through a church announcing it? No mate. And if they did, I'd expect them to get the requisite amount of grief!!!

Do you mean I have no right to express my opinion here, at this forum? I have no problem with all the response, it's discussion, some rents about Russia and me were really harsh, maybe I was too provocative. But I got some good comments to think about and to thank for.

 

[the fox in the box]

Do you mean I have no right to express my opinion here, at this forum? I have no problem with all the response, it's discussion, some rents about Russia and me were really harsh, maybe I was too provocative. But I got some good comments to think about and to thank for.

I think what a lot of people are trying to explain to you is that every human on this planet is entitled to live thier lives how they please within the realms of the law. Wether this be Gay, Jewish, Arsenal fan or fish.

But to expect people not to be offended by your (in my opinion, extreme views) comments and not to retaliate when you say some out right disgusting things (Gay people are not perverts for example) baffles me.

Have your own beliefs, have your own morals... I clearly wont agree with them but you are entitled to them... just dont expect them once expressed in public to be accepted, respected or even agreed with just because it is your culture... where I am from that is considered narrow minded and backward... it is 2013 can you not just let people live the life handed to them?



two questions....

1. considering you are born with your sexual orientation and do not choose to like men/ women/ both... what would you do if your first born son was gay?

2. do you think lesbians are sexy when they get it on?

 

[Papercut]

Interesting reading about Russia. Apparently 'privacy' is not really a concept and that they have only recently added a word for privacy to their lexicon (privatnost or something).

On the contrary however they were looking to pass a law on open homosexuality in public.

 

[Aksolotl]

I think what a lot of people are trying to explain to you is that every human on this planet is entitled to live thier lives how they please within the realms of the law. Wether this be Gay, Jewish, Arsenal fan or fish.

But to expect people not to be offended by your (in my opinion, extreme views) comments and not to retaliate when you say some out right disgusting things (Gay people are not perverts for example) baffles me.

Have your own beliefs, have your own morals... I clearly wont agree with them but you are entitled to them... just dont expect them once expressed in public to be accepted, respected or even agreed with just because it is your culture... where I am from that is considered narrow minded and backward... it is 2013 can you not just let people live the life handed to them?



two questions....

1. considering you are born with your sexual orientation and do not choose to like men/ women/ both... what would you do if your first born son was gay?

2. do you think lesbians are sexy when they get it on?

within the realms of the law - you must say "within the realms of my country law". cos my country has its own laws (including moral laws).

1. It would be uneasy but he would be my blood anyway.
2. Like it in ****o) but not in real life, its abnormal

question for you - what would you do if your first born son was racist nazi skinhead? no need to answer, really

 

[milo]

within the realms of the law - you must say "within the realms of my country law". cos my country has its own laws (including moral laws).

1. It would be uneasy but he would be my blood anyway.
2. Like it in ****o) but not in real life, its abnormal

question for you - what would you do if your first born son was racist nazi skinhead? no need to answer, really

What do you mean by abnormal? Homosexuality is perfectly normal in nature and occurs in many species or do you just mean that the majority of people are not homosexual?

 

[Aksolotl]

What do you mean by abnormal? Homosexuality is perfectly normal in nature and occurs in many species or do you just mean that the majority of people are not homosexual?

science is controversial about homosexuality in nature.

 

[braineclipse]

It's a matter of traditional family values. It's a matter of western snobism - only our way of life is right, no place for other cultures, traditions - islam, china, russia, any religions - mistakes of history. and you call me narrowminded. try to consider this way. I don't like islam, china, any religion, but I admit there are other cultures, points of view in the world, but do not crash my values. Try to understand all complexity of the problem.
and what's the **** about killing gays on the streets in russia?? Never heard about it. Maybe drunken dancing bear killed a couple with balalayka, dunno.
"Gay people did not choose to be gay" - so what? maniacs did not choose to be maniacs.
I agree we have problem with racism, but the same in Italy, Poland etc. and if in my language we use words black and negro we don't want to abuse them, it's just language.
We have a lot problems here in Russia and i want to change a lot in my country. But there are basic principles in my blood and i don't want you to decide for me. cos you're different, it's not right just to do everything in Russia like in Great Britain. We're so different and no need to be the same.

Complaining about the breach of traditional family values is certainly western enough if not snobism. Completely a historic, there's been a consistent change both in family structures and in values going on for a very long time. The vast majority of that has been for the better imo.

I find it interesting that your family values help condemn innocent children to a life of poverty and suffering. Great values, no need for change.

science is controversial about homosexuality in nature.

And now science denialism, great.

Wouldn't even matter if there were no examples among (other) animals. Humans do a lot of things animals don't, doesn't make it wrong.

Feel free to define what you meant by "abnormal" as asked by milo btw.

 

[milo]

science is controversial about homosexuality in nature.

I am not aware of any controversy between scientists, I think that it is widely accepted that same sex sexual activity is common among many species. I'd be fascinated in reading any credible research that contradicts this though.

Here is a link to an article that about a study into same sex behavour

http://www.livescience.com/3697-sex-behavior-animals.html

and his is a link to the abstract of the study that they are writing about

https://www.cell.com/trends/ecology-evolution/abstract/S0169-5347(09)00154-2

 

[Dorothy]

What do you mean by abnormal? Homosexuality is perfectly normal in nature and occurs in many species or do you just mean that the majority of people are not homosexual?

I think by abnormal he means 'not the norm', which to be fair is entirely true. The norm in human sexuality is 'heterosexuality', naturally. The number of 'out' homosexuals does however continue to increase and species evolve, so who knows which way humanity will eventually head towards. We are bound to continue to evolve however our evolution may well be checked by events beyond our control.

 

[milo]

I think by abnormal he means 'not the norm', which to be fair is entirely true. The norm in human sexuality is 'heterosexuality', naturally. The number of 'out' homosexuals does however continue to increase and species evolve, so who knows which way humanity will eventually head towards. We are bound to continue to evolve however our evolution may well be checked by events beyond our control.

Re. the bold bit. I do not think that there is any evidence that homosexuality increases as species evolve. I think that the visibility of homosexuality within cultures has varied depending on how socially acceptable it was at the time.

 

[the fox in the box]

within the realms of the law - you must say "within the realms of my country law". cos my country has its own laws (including moral laws).

1. It would be uneasy but he would be my blood anyway.
2. Like it in ****o) but not in real life, its abnormal

question for you - what would you do if your first born son was racist nazi skinhead? no need to answer, really

Am I mistaken in thinking that the laws of your country on some level ban/ make illegal homosexuality.... do you not think this is wrong considering gay people are born this way just like you were clearly born straight.... Or is it a choice in Russia?

1. would you not love your son regardless?

2. I figured as much, selective opinions... how is a ****o different to two women having sex in privacy? do you not see how everyone reacts to your posts... IT IS NOT ABNORMAL, it is perfectly natural and is just as natural for other species to be gay...

that question is absurd! I would raise my children how I have been raised, to be open minded of other people and accepting of people who are different!

Your like of compassion for other humans is shocking!

 

[Superted]

I always understood it was only humans (& dolphins) who had sex for pleasure. The rest of the animal kingdom just do it because the urge takes them. My dog shags my leg and teddy bears, but its not because he wants to, its because its just the thing to do. Doesn't make him gay.

 

[milo]

I always understood it was only humans (& dolphins) who had sex for pleasure. The rest of the animal kingdom just do it because the urge takes them. My dog shags my leg and teddy bears, but its not because he wants to, its because its just the thing to do. Doesn't make him gay.

I don't believe that to be true.

We're not just talking about sex here but pairing. For example, swans and penguins frequently parent chicks in same sex partnerships.

 

[Superted]

Just had a look at wiki - seems to be a bit of a grey area.

I've also probably just been blacklisted on my ISP for googling "animal sex pleasure"

 

[Dorothy]

Re. the bold bit. I do not think that there is any evidence that homosexuality increases as species evolve. I think that the visibility of homosexuality within cultures has varied depending on how socially acceptable it was at the time.

Hence my use of 'out'. Homosexuality is more visible, there is growing acceptance and humans as a species evolve. Evolution is not only physical but mental and the growing 'visibility' will indeed lead to a greater acceptance. A greater acceptance will no doubt lead to more choosing that way of life. I say that in that there are varying degrees of being Gay. In all seriousness I don't mean Novice Gay, Gaylord etc.. but some are born with a preference for the same sex, it is genetic, some make a choice and choose to dabble, some go through phases, some enter into it (no pun intended) later in life perhaps unaware of why they felt unfulfilled in life. Some are genetically more likely to sit one side of the fence to the other. There is little moral guidance beyond the ironic teachings of the church and same sex relationships or preferences will no doubt be part of the curriculum soon. Something that does not require being shown to be accepted but something that is a normal facet of human sexuality and choice. So through a mental evolution I'd imagine you will see greater numbers of human homosexuals. Although those regions where homosexuality is still illegal, or certainly not accepted, do tend to have higher birth rates than we do.

 

[milo]

Just had a look at wiki - seems to be a bit of a grey area.

I've also probably just been blacklisted on my ISP for googling "animal sex pleasure"

That's your targeted web ads stuffed for a while :lol:

I guess the question is, how do you define sex for pleasure? If you define it as "sex for purposes other than reproduction" then it is far more wide spread.