Financial Fair Play

[Neymar]

Not sure how useful a direct comparison of value between sports in different markets is?

Although I suppose it really highlights why a lot of the big clubs would like to move towards a European super league.

fair enough. i just wanted to show that relative to how much teams like us and arsenal are worth (as an enterprise), owners/chairmen like levy are not actually being that tight. its only when you compare levy to someone like abramovic, does he start to look a bit tight. and for the reasons mentioned above, i dont think its fair to compare levy to the likes of abramovic.

Not sure I agree with blaming the fans either. The financial responsibility is on the chairman and the board, they're making the decisions.

the financial responsibility is with the chairman ultimately. i do agree with this. however, its the fans that drive the directives of the club in reality. ie. arsenal probably signed ozil only because of the vitriol that was building up at the emirates. the board probably thought the risk of fan boycotts was high enough to warrant the purchase of ozil. if the fans were to just support their team without the angst against their club for not spending like chelsea or Emirates Marketing Project, they could probably make safer financial decisions.

 

[Superhudd]

I disagree. chelsea and mancity's ticket prices are massively subsidised by the likes of abramovic. if anything, they are very good for football fans. these clubs make massive losses every year. that only means one thing: ticket prices to watch 200k p/w players like aguero, hazard, toure, lampard should be a lot higher than they are. but abramovic is willing to make up the difference between what the fans pay, and what the ticket should actually cost (if chelsea were to break even).

the problem is the fans. look at the teams just below the Emirates Marketing Project's and chelsea's. thats us and arsenal. we always seem to be complaining about missing a "superstar striker" or lacking squad depth etc. the thing is we are only lacking a star striker or sqaud depth compared to chelsea and mancity. when you compare our squad to the rest of the league, we are doing absolutely fine. and for some reason, we complain to our owner/chairman because he is not willing to take on losses like abramovic. yet on the other hand, we don't want to pay more for tickets either (to fund better players).

Fans have done that for ever, asking for another star player, as have managers. If you did a poll asking what fans wanted at this club the poll would be against doing what City and Cheatski have done.

We do not directly go to our owners demanding certain players, no clubs fans do. They might vent and rant on MBs or to Radio stations but they do not ask there club to spend money which is not there.. well the educated ones don't, school kids might.

 

[Superhudd]

I kinda agree with Neymar, although I think the fans are facilitators rather than to blame, the fact of the matter is we all love it, we like the way football has changed, we love the champions league, we love sky sports, we love new kits every year

if we didn't we wouldn't be crawling over each other to give them our money, we've all literally bought into "modern football"

But that's more a society thing more than anything, the need to have the new, the shiny the next best thing. I personally could get by with a shirt every three years (infact I do). I prefer the Premier League over the over bloated Champions League too. Sky Sports I would love to get rid of but it has too many other sports that I want to watch to get rid, but certainly if terrestrial were to have more sports then Sky would be gone, I only have Sky because I don't have a choice.

 

[Superhudd]

Not sure how useful a direct comparison of value between sports in different markets is?

Although I suppose it really highlights why a lot of the big clubs would like to move towards a European super league.

Not sure I agree with blaming the fans either. The financial responsibility is on the chairman and the board, they're making the decisions.

I think this is wrong, do you honestly think the clubs like Arsenal, Livepool, Milans etc will put up with what is happening in domestic leagues to happen in a Super League. The status quo would remain, the teams that win now by buying success would continue. There is absolutely no real benefit to move to such a league. These clubs would become also rans every season without any chance of success.

 

[Superhudd]

fair enough. i just wanted to show that relative to how much teams like us and arsenal are worth (as an enterprise), owners/chairmen like levy are not actually being that tight. its only when you compare levy to someone like abramovic, does he start to look a bit tight. and for the reasons mentioned above, i dont think its fair to compare levy to the likes of abramovic.



the financial responsibility is with the chairman ultimately. i do agree with this. however, its the fans that drive the directives of the club in reality. ie. arsenal probably signed ozil only because of the vitriol that was building up at the emirates. the board probably thought the risk of fan boycotts was high enough to warrant the purchase of ozil. if the fans were to just support their team without the angst against their club for not spending like chelsea or Emirates Marketing Project, they could probably make safer financial decisions.

LOL, it was the first year they have been free from stadium debt, instead of giving half the profit to he government in tax they have to spend the money to make the balance sheet as close to zero as possible. They were always going to spend that money. Wenger chose wisely and waited to get the man he wanted. Where are there 30m signings before that if fans are in charge of the purse strings.

 

[Neymar]

LOL, it was the first year they have been free from stadium debt, instead of giving half the profit to he government in tax they have to spend the money to make the balance sheet as close to zero as possible. They were always going to spend that money. Wenger chose wisely and waited to get the man he wanted. Where are there 30m signings before that if fans are in charge of the purse strings.

you may be right. but i don't neccessarily agree that they want their balance sheet to be as close to zero as possible. i don't think someone like kroenke is at arsenal to break even every year for sporting success. he wants to make money.

and you ask "where are the 30m signings?". that question just highlights the craziness of football. you are asking for 30m signings like this is a normal thing. when most of the teams in the premier league lose money year in year out, the question should be "why have we bought another £1m player?"

 

[Neymar]

I think this is wrong, do you honestly think the clubs like Arsenal, Livepool, Milans etc will put up with what is happening in domestic leagues to happen in a Super League. The status quo would remain, the teams that win now by buying success would continue. There is absolutely no real benefit to move to such a league. These clubs would become also rans every season without any chance of success.

i don't think the reasons mentioned are the primary reasons behind an inevitable european super league. but, i think it could be valid.

a european super league would garuntee that teams like arsenal and liverpool would be locked into "europe's elite". there will not be a "top 4" to aim for, nor relegation. it'll be exactly like what the owners of arsenal and liverpool are used to back in the usa. the value of their organisation would remain constant and protected. the kudos of being part of the super league alone would be massive. and that alone would be a massive revenue generator. they would not need to be competitve (in terms of challenging for the super league title). that means owners such as kroenke and henry could operate at a financially profitable level, as their teams challenge for mid-bottom league positions.

at the moment, when teams like arsenal try to operate profitably, they are running a massive risk of falling out of the top 4, which would bring further financial losses. if there were to be one or two more abramovic's, arsenal and liverpool would have little chance of finishing in the top 4 again. i think it is this risk that a european super league would eliminate. and thats why "clubs like Arsenal, Livepool, Milans etc will put up with what is happening in domestic leagues to happen in a Super League". ie. kronke/henry/glazers just want profitability, and the european super league would garuntee this. i doubt they really care much about sporting success.

 

[braineclipse]

I think this is wrong, do you honestly think the clubs like Arsenal, Livepool, Milans etc will put up with what is happening in domestic leagues to happen in a Super League. The status quo would remain, the teams that win now by buying success would continue. There is absolutely no real benefit to move to such a league. These clubs would become also rans every season without any chance of success.

The Liverpool owners are in it to make money, I think the same applies to Arsenal. If they had the chance to join a relegation and qualification free super league where they would be guaranteed a significantly higher turnover than they currently have along with a potential wage cap to ensure some competitiveness and the possibility for the owners to pump out a large yearly profit almost risk free I think they would be all over it.

I have no idea about the Milan owners, but with the financial and sporting crisis in the Italian serie A (about to be overtaken by Portugal in the UEFA coefficient) I think a lot of Italian clubs would be very interested too.

 

[Baleforce]

here's a thought, united aren't in Europe next season, therefore ffp is irrelevant for 1 year, can they front load the contracts of new signings (massive signing on fees and decreasing annual earnings, like NFL teams do) to strengthen their position going forward?

 

[Superhudd]

you may be right. but i don't neccessarily agree that they want their balance sheet to be as close to zero as possible. i don't think someone like kroenke is at arsenal to break even every year for sporting success. he wants to make money.

and you ask "where are the 30m signings?". that question just highlights the craziness of football. you are asking for 30m signings like this is a normal thing. when most of the teams in the premier league lose money year in year out, the question should be "why have we bought another £1m player?"

It's the likes of Abramovich and the sheik that have set the market right now of 30m for an above average player. Not the fans, not the clubs like us, arsenal and Liverpool and certainly not me. What these clubs did was separate themselves by inflating player costs and wages. Whereas city and PSG, Chelsea were able to buy 4 or 5 in one window, other clubs would be just the one.. If not with a lot less money.

The owners such as Kroenke are not interested in yearly profits.. They are interested in building a global franchise which has moved from the 500m (don't know exact amount) they paid to a 1.5billion asset. That is what the likes of the Liverpool owners and Lewis and Levy are doing at Tottenham. If they were interested in yearly profits which half would go to the government in tax btw, they would have done what the Glazers have done by using the profits to pay the loans the club took out in order for the Glazers to own the club.

 

[Neymar]

It's the likes of Abramovich and the sheik that have set the market right now of 30m for an above average player. Not the fans, not the clubs like us, arsenal and Liverpool and certainly not me. What these clubs did was separate themselves by inflating player costs and wages. Whereas city and PSG, Chelsea were able to buy 4 or 5 in one window, other clubs would be just the one.. If not with a lot less money.

The owners such as Kroenke are not interested in yearly profits.. They are interested in building a global franchise which has moved from the 500m (don't know exact amount) they paid to a 1.5billion asset. That is what the likes of the Liverpool owners and Lewis and Levy are doing at Tottenham. If they were interested in yearly profits which half would go to the government in tax btw, they would have done what the Glazers have done by using the profits to pay the loans the club took out in order for the Glazers to own the club.

i totally agree re "building a global franchise". and it definitely seems this is where most money can be made by owning an elite football club. which raises a few questions about the arsenal model. ie. is it really worth trying to build a squad at a fraction of the rate of chelsea's or Emirates Marketing Project's, when the big profits are made through building the club name/status (and not by buying a player for 500k and selling him off for 35m). fwiw, this is why i think the glazers would not be too opposed to spending c. £100m on players this window.

but i do get the feeling that someone like kroenke would like to make yearly operating profits. surely this is why he hasnt sacked wenger, or at least told him to change his model of running arsenal.

 

[Superhudd]

The Liverpool owners are in it to make money, I think the same applies to Arsenal. If they had the chance to join a relegation and qualification free super league where they would be guaranteed a significantly higher turnover than they currently have along with a potential wage cap to ensure some competitiveness and the possibility for the owners to pump out a large yearly profit almost risk free I think they would be all over it.

I have no idea about the Milan owners, but with the financial and sporting crisis in the Italian serie A (about to be overtaken by Portugal in the UEFA coefficient) I think a lot of Italian clubs would be very interested too.

I guarentee there customers would not be. Would you be tolerant of such a set up where the status quo remains.

And now you mention a wage cap, that's a different ball game all together which you didn't suggest. That still does not make sense though although would make it competitive, why go to a league that would keep the power with city and Chelsea still... Or do you penalise these two and stay put.

i don't think wage capping is possible, mainly because these people have shown that they want to win at all costs and no doubt, just as Russia and Qatar won World Cup bids, underhand shenanigans will go on with players with payments.

I do not believe for one moment those like UTD, Liverpool, **** and us would want in with Chelsea, City, PSG, Monaco etc.

Infact with making ex UTD chairman martin Edwards part of the FFP process suggests these clubs are doing all they can to stop them.

again, it will be the customers that will have the final say... I think many would walk away.

 

[Superhudd]

here's a thought, united aren't in Europe next season, therefore ffp is irrelevant for 1 year, can they front load the contracts of new signings (massive signing on fees and decreasing annual earnings, like NFL teams do) to strengthen their position going forward?

I thought this a few pages back. In a sense, what Monaco have done.

 

[Baleforce]

The players would surely go for it, they still earn the same over the contract but they enable the club to put better players around them.

 

[Superhudd]

Look what is happening tonight, the price is being pushed up by PSG for an above average player from 30m to 50m by paying Chelsea 50m for David Luiz. Ridiculous. Not one fan IMO would have suggested such stupidity by PSG.

 

[Superhudd]

The players would surely go for it, they still earn the same over the contract but they enable the club to put better players around them.

This is what I was suggesting to any new owner wanting to buy a cheap club and spend a billion in a window.

 

[Superhudd]

Btw what stops that is the EPL new rulings on FFP which some believe are harder than UEFAs.

 

[Baleforce]

Are they an enforceable rule yet though

 

[Superhudd]

Don't know. Not really focused on those rulings tbh.

 

[Neymar]

Look what is happening tonight, the price is being pushed up by PSG for an above average player from 30m to 50m by paying Chelsea 50m for David Luiz. Ridiculous. Not one fan IMO would have suggested such stupidity by PSG.

but when monaco fans see that their rivals have just strengthend in this manner, they will ask why they aren't showing the same ambition, and perhaps bid 45m for vertonghen, hopefully .

if you look at our team now, its arguably the best its been for decades. but we (the fans) still compare ourselves to the 4 teams above us in the league. and so inevitably, we start thinking that we're lacking squad depth or that we are short of one quality striker like suarez, aguero etc. and we end up spending 25m (and 100k in wages) on a 28 yr old who nobody had heard of 24 months ago.