Financial Fair Play

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Well, if you refuse to acknowledge that information or dismiss it as irrelevant, then I have to agree with you...no point continuing the conversation.

Well it is irrelevant. Money loaned to the club to deal with debts created by the previous regime are a one off case.

Nothing to do with the regular financial backing of the business.


If Portsmouth come back up sometime will we point at the fact that someone had to pay off their debts when they took over as proof that they are now badly run? No.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

And a large reason that Liverpool failed to make the most of that financial advantage?


Doing things like selling Torres for 50m and buying dross. Their situation is of their own making and had they spent better they would be far more competetive.


The big clubs will make mistakes. They will face bumps in the road and it will be possible for other clubs to take advantage of it.

But you're talking about a Liverpool that had already fallen from grace and that was no longer within the virtuous circle. Much harder to replace players when you're already floundering. You can't expect every big club to suffer the same, leveraged buyout fate as Liverpool.

And yes, of course big clubs will make mistakes and, occasionally, let other clubs in with a chance. But the odds will always be against those other clubs - even after they've been given their chance. And let's not forget, those other clubs are equally prone to those mistakes. Only difference is that they will be much more vulnerable to the consequences of those mistakes.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

But you're talking about a Liverpool that had already fallen from grace and that was no longer within the virtuous circle. Much harder to replace players when you're already floundering. You can't expect every big club to suffer the same, leveraged buyout fate as Liverpool.

And yes, of course big clubs will make mistakes and, occasionally, let other clubs in with a chance. But the odds will always be against those other clubs - even after they've been given their chance. And let's not forget, those other clubs are equally prone to those mistakes. Only difference is that they will be much more vulnerable to the consequences of those mistakes.

So you agree that it is a gap that can be narrowed, whilst the original point was that it was a gap that 'could never be narrowed'..


So we agree, so i have no idea why you are fighting me on this anymore.. I've kind of lost track along the way.. 8-[

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Well it is irrelevant. Money loaned to the club to deal with debts created by the previous regime are a one off case.

Nothing to do with the regular financial backing of the business.

From just the one season:

"In the year in which Saints won their League One promotion they lost some £11.5m, a figure included in the Liebherr family's considerable contribution to the club's current successful position, and their revenues increased to £16.4m while wages went up to 93 per cent of turnover."

Nothing to do with preexisting debt.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

From just the one season:



Nothing to do with preexisting debt.

Really? That was not how i recalled it.

Fair enough.

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

So you agree that it is a gap that can be narrowed, whilst the original point was that it was a gap that 'could never be narrowed'..


So we agree, so i have no idea why you are fighting me on this anymore.. I've kind of lost track along the way.. 8-[

If you believe that every big club is likely to have some financial catastrophe (like an unsustainable leveraged buyout) befall them, then you'd be right to say that the gap could be narrowed.

But the odds on that..............???

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

If you believe that every big club is likely to have some financial catastrophe (like an unsustainable leveraged buyout) befall them, then you'd be right to say that the gap could be narrowed.

But the odds on that..............???

Not every club has to, but in a long enough timeline they will.


In twenty years time i would be highly surprised if two of Chelsea/City/United were still in the top three in England.

 

[elltrev]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

We spent a brick load of money that we made.


There are a number of clubs placed in the championship who have extremely large support that has waned due to their lack of Premiership football.


Clubs like Nottingham Forest and Leeds being perfect examples. It may take more years than it took spurs, but given effective management they could come through.


Southampton are a good example of this. They have one of the best academies in England, possibly one of the best in the world. Now that they are a Premier League club they can continue to nurture that talent rather than having higher league clubs pinching their potential superstars.

I agree that it is not impossible for a team to enter the elite - Spurs' experience suggests that it is possible. However:

a) It also suggests that it is extremely difficult, as Spurs are the only club to have done it to date. And we had the biggest revenue of the non-Sky-4 teams.
b) Whilst we have broken into the top 4/5, we're still far away from the top 2.
c) This also doesn't mean that the gap between the elite and the non-elite has narrowed, which is what indianspur said - it just means that we have joined the elite.

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

I agree that it is not impossible for a team to enter the elite - Spurs' experience suggests that it is possible. However:

a) It also suggests that it is extremely difficult, as Spurs are the only club to have done it to date. And we had the biggest revenue of the non-Sky-4 teams.
b) Whilst we have broken into the top 4/5, we're still far away from the top 2.
c) This also doesn't mean that the gap between the elite and the non-elite has narrowed, which is what indianspur said - it just means that we have joined the elite.

a) Everton were pretty close to doing it.
b) If you can break the top 4, it is only a matter of time before someone breaks the top two.

c) He said the gap between the Elite and Non-Elite is impossible to overcome. Which it is not. If we are part of the elite it makes it even less so. Five years down the line we could be mid table or we could be top of the league. If we're mid table someone else must have overtaken us.


I don't think we're always going to be this good. That is basically what I am saying. If we are the Elite, then Anyone who goes past us must become Elite. If Everton finish above us next season would they then be Elite?


I guess it's where you draw the line about 'Elite'.


Liverpool were Elite for ten years or so. Are they still?

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

I agree that it is not impossible for a team to enter the elite - Spurs' experience suggests that it is possible. However:

a) It also suggests that it is extremely difficult, as Spurs are the only club to have done it to date. And we had the biggest revenue of the non-Sky-4 teams.
b) Whilst we have broken into the top 4/5, we're still far away from the top 2.
c) This also doesn't mean that the gap between the elite and the non-elite has narrowed, which is what indianspur said - it just means that we have joined the elite.

a) Everton were pretty close to doing it.
b) If you can break the top 4, it is only a matter of time before someone breaks the top two.

c)If we are part of the elite it makes it even easier to narrow the gap. Five years down the line we could be mid table or we could be top of the league. If we're mid table someone else must have overtaken us.


I don't think we're always going to be this good. That is basically what I am saying. If we are the Elite, then Anyone who goes past us must become Elite. If Everton finish above us next season would they then be Elite?


I guess it's where you draw the line about 'Elite'.


Liverpool were Elite for ten years or so. Are they still?

 

[elltrev]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

a) Everton were pretty close to doing it.
b) If you can break the top 4, it is only a matter of time before someone breaks the top two.

c) He said the gap between the Elite and Non-Elite is impossible to overcome. Which it is not. If we are part of the elite it makes it even less so. Five years down the line we could be mid table or we could be top of the league. If we're mid table someone else must have overtaken us.


I don't think we're always going to be this good. That is basically what I am saying. If we are the Elite, then Anyone who goes past us must become Elite. If Everton finish above us next season would they then be Elite?


I guess it's where you draw the line about 'Elite'.


Liverpool were Elite for ten years or so. Are they still?

a) Everton were pretty close? In what way? They qualified for the Champions League once, and didn't even make it to the group stages. Since then their average league position has been 7th, and their turnover in 2010-2011 (last season for which data is available) was £82m, which was £174m less than Arsenal and £249m less than Man United.

b) Pure conjecture, and all evidence suggests otherwise. No-one has come close to doing it for even one season, let alone on a regular basis.

c) No he didn't, he said it can never be narrowed. And as I said, Spurs joining the top teams doesn't mean that it has been narrowed for everyone else.

And in any case I explicitly agreed that it's not impossible to overcome the gap, but said that it is extremely difficult.

Yes, we should be clearer what we mean by 'elite'. I'm speaking mostly in terms of revenue, but also in terms of sustained success in the league. In any case the two are extremely closely correlated in recent years.

In terms of revenue, there is a clear 'break' (in 2010-2011) between Aston Villa, who had the 7th biggest revenue, and Emirates Marketing Project, who had the 6th biggest. From 20th to 7th the average increase in revenue is £3.5m. From 7th to 6th it's £61m. From an average of £3.5m, to £61m. Then it's £10m (City to Spurs), £21m (Spurs to Liverpool), £38m (Liverpool to Chelsea), £34m (Chelsea to Arsenal) and, right at the top, £75m (Arsenal to United).

So I'm talking about those six teams being the current elite. And evem within that elite there are very big differences between each team, MUCH bigger than the differences between the non-elite teams.

Previous to Spurs' CL qualification and City's sugardaddy, the other four were the elite.

EDIT: Data taken from here:http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/may/23/premier-league-accounts-profit-debt

 

[Milas_Spur]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Everton's Champions league qualification in 2005 was well freakish. They managed it with only 61 points. Any other season that would only have been good enough for 7th/8th

 

[jimmyb]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

a) Everton were pretty close to doing it.
b) If you can break the top 4, it is only a matter of time before someone breaks the top two.

c) He said the gap between the Elite and Non-Elite is impossible to overcome. Which it is not. If we are part of the elite it makes it even less so. Five years down the line we could be mid table or we could be top of the league. If we're mid table someone else must have overtaken us.


I don't think we're always going to be this good. That is basically what I am saying. If we are the Elite, then Anyone who goes past us must become Elite. If Everton finish above us next season would they then be Elite?


I guess it's where you draw the line about 'Elite'.


Liverpool were Elite for ten years or so. Are they still?

Everton were never close to breaking into the elite. They qualified for the Champions League. Once. That is all. Other than that, they have been a second level Premier League team that has never seriously threatened to dethrone the established elite.

Spurs are the only team from that second level which, without outside investment, has consistently threatened to join the elite. We're not there yet, though, and won't be until we can be fairly confident of playing CL football most seasons.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Still. FFP is good for the 15 odd teams that are not in the Champions League. Add another sugar coated attempt by a billionaire and the gap between those that can spend regardless gets bigger. The only way Sugar daddies are fair in terms of the Premiership is if everyone has one. And as I have said.. two in the past 10 years isn't bringing in another 15.

 

[Modric THFC]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Still. FFP is good for the 15 odd teams that are not in the Champions League. Add another sugar coated attempt by a billionaire and the gap between those that can spend regardless gets bigger. The only way Sugar daddies are fair in terms of the Premiership is if everyone has one. And as I have said.. two in the past 10 years isn't bringing in another 15.

You might not have noticed but clubs like QPR, Aston Villa and Sunderland have for 100's of millions each thrown at them by owners what are not getting anything back from it.

 

[Superhudd]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

You might not have noticed but clubs like QPR, Aston Villa and Sunderland have for 100's of millions each thrown at them by owners what are not getting anything back from it.

They not proper sugar daddy.. they wear the fur coat pimping like they are but in reality.. not on the same level as City & Chelsea. when they start buying 30m players worth only half that.. thats when you know they are pimping it right.. (can you tell I'm on S2 ep7 of the wire lol)

 

[Denmark Spur]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play


Premier League shareholders ratify rules governing financial regulation of clubs

April 11, 2013 2:26pm

Sky sources understand Premier League shareholders have ratified the rules governing financial regulation of football clubs.

The plans promise two significant controls; to limit players' wage bills from next season and longer-term measures that will restrict the amount of losses clubs can make to £105million over three years.

Clubs whose total wage bill is more than £52m will only be allowed to increase their wages by £4m per season for the next three years, but the cap does not cover extra money coming in from increases in commercial or matchday income.

The ceiling when the wage increase restrictions kick in will be £52m next season, £56m the following year and £60m in 2015-16. Only seven of the current top-flight clubs would be under that ceiling at the moment.

The regulations have come about against the backdrop of UEFA's Financial Fair Play (FFP) initiative.

Under UEFA's new rules clubs are being forced to minimise losses or risk the possibility of exclusion from European competition from 2014/15.

Should Premier League clubs break their proposed new rules, chief executive Richard Scudamore has already confirmed that they will face a points deduction.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/8631200/

 

[indianspur]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Premier League shareholders ratify rules governing financial regulation of clubs

April 11, 2013 2:26pm

Sky sources understand Premier League shareholders have ratified the rules governing financial regulation of football clubs.

The plans promise two significant controls; to limit players' wage bills from next season and longer-term measures that will restrict the amount of losses clubs can make to £105million over three years.

Clubs whose total wage bill is more than £52m will only be allowed to increase their wages by £4m per season for the next three years, but the cap does not cover extra money coming in from increases in commercial or matchday income.

The ceiling when the wage increase restrictions kick in will be £52m next season, £56m the following year and £60m in 2015-16. Only seven of the current top-flight clubs would be under that ceiling at the moment.

The regulations have come about against the backdrop of UEFA's Financial Fair Play (FFP) initiative.

Under UEFA's new rules clubs are being forced to minimise losses or risk the possibility of exclusion from European competition from 2014/15.

Should Premier League clubs break their proposed new rules, chief executive Richard Scudamore has already confirmed that they will face a points deduction.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/8631200/

what??

 

[jts1882]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

Indeed what.

Does that really mean a club qualifying for the CL cannot increase wages in line with the extra TV revenue, which is usually consider separately from commercial and matchday income?

 

[Spursalot]

Re: O/T Financial Fair Play

I would be more curious about bonuses that have been agreed upon. Pretty sure we would be paying out more than £4m to our players should we qualify for the champions league.


To do so would be in breach of these regulations, not to do so would be in breach of contracts.


Must be something missing from this.