Expectations for 25/26

[Surfless]

We finished 17th last season. We lost the most games in Premier League history of any team that wasn't relegated. We conceded the 5th most goals in the league last season. Romero and VDV have struggled to even get on a pitch for us regularly over the last few seasons let alone be the best up and coming centre half in Europe and saving us in countless games as you say. Look, i hope you're right about how great our squad is and I am wrong about how bang average it is. I really do.

but to take the performance in the league and attribute it to the defensive frailties of players you suggest are not up to scratch is just manipulating the information to suit your agenda. We had a massive, unprecedented injury crisis which prevented most of the back line from being available, including the goalkeeper. There was then a strategic decision taken to not play some of the key players you so denigrate in league games as the final stages of the Europa League came up.

Literally you are criticising players for performances they were not involved in.

 

[Push and run]

but to take the performance in the league and attribute it to the defensive frailties of players you suggest are not up to scratch is just manipulating the information to suit your agenda. We had a massive, unprecedented injury crisis which prevented most of the back line from being available, including the goalkeeper. There was then a strategic decision taken to not play some of the key players you so denigrate in league games as the final stages of the Europa League came up.

Literally you are criticising players for performances they were not involved in.

I think you're both right to some extent. Van de Ven's main weakness is when players run at him as his size makes him vulnerable to quick changes of direction. His heading definitely has room for improvement and that may come. That's not to disagree with the assertion that he's one of the best young CBs in Europe: I wouldn't swap him for anyone. Similarly, Romero did give away a lot of goals early last season; again, he's obviously one of the best centre-halves in the world when he's on. I think he sometimes phones it in.

All defenders – all players – have strengths and weaknesses. Stating the obvious, I know, but that's what made Poch such an excellent manager; he improved Kyle Walker, Danny Rose and Eric Dier rather than allowing their occasional lapses to turn into regular ones.

I'm not trying to be a fence-sitter, but yes, our defenders are among the most talented around, and yes, they all have room for improvement. When all four are at their best we are a team that wins trophies. And when they're not, we're a team that loses at home to average opposition.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

The usual brick incoming.

If Frank thinks coming 6th in the league after we just won a European trophy would be a good first season, then he's for a very rude awakening. Not saying he does think that, however he's had long enough now to assess the players he has and should be telling Levy/Lange to move them the fudge on, and get him some replacements.

Season is just over 2 weeks away.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Expectations are that we start to see a strong foundation in the side. So much of that is what happens behind closed doors in training. On the pitch and in the spot light, the expectation is we start to see the fruits of the sides labour. Which is why we need to hang in there. I don't expect too much too soon. Then I expect steady incremental improvements. Of course there are steps back along the way.

But I am confident we have a setup that is more stable now, and the managment team will create good foundations, so we can build and develop. That is my expectation.

 

[Lilbaz]

The usual brick incoming.

If Frank thinks coming 6th in the league after we just won a European trophy would be a good first season, then he's for a very rude awakening. Not saying he does think that, however he's had long enough now to assess the players he has and should be telling Levy/Lange to move them the fudge on, and get him some replacements.

Season is just over 2 weeks away.

What are you talking about? Where he was asked if the odds of spurs winning the league were fair? 66/1. He asked where does that put us in the league? 6th. I'd take that.

Read what you want into that. I take it as it's a fair prediction. Nothing was said about trophies.

Doesn't mean we won't aim higher, we'll go in trying to win every game.

What do you exect him to say? We'll finish 2nd?

Manage expectations. 6th in the league isn't great but isn't bad either.

 

[Kandi1977]

Not every team. The 3 relegated teams and Wolves had worse defences than us last season.

Well, at least your nick fits you.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

What are you talking about? Where he was asked if the odds of spurs winning the league were fair? 66/1. He asked where does that put us in the league? 6th. I'd take that.

To be fair, I hadn't heard him say 6th was an aim.

Read what you want into that. I take it as it's a fair prediction. Nothing was said about trophies.

There should be.

Doesn't mean we won't aim higher, we'll go in trying to win every game.

You think?

What do you exect him to say? We'll finish 2nd?

Yes. IF (as you say) we're going in trying to win every game then winning the league and trophies is the aim, no?

Manage expectations. 6th in the league isn't great but isn't bad either.

The game is about glory - you might have heard that mentioned before.

 

[Lilbaz]

To be fair, I hadn't heard him say 6th was an aim.


There should be.


You think?


Yes. IF (as you say) we're going in trying to win every game then winning the league and trophies is the aim, no?


The game is about glory - you might have heard that mentioned before.

You do understand the difference between the aim and the expectation?

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I think you're both right to some extent. Van de Ven's main weakness is when players run at him as his size makes him vulnerable to quick changes of direction. His heading definitely has room for improvement and that may come. That's not to disagree with the assertion that he's one of the best young CBs in Europe: I wouldn't swap him for anyone. Similarly, Romero did give away a lot of goals early last season; again, he's obviously one of the best centre-halves in the world when he's on. I think he sometimes phones it in.

All defenders – all players – have strengths and weaknesses. Stating the obvious, I know, but that's what made Poch such an excellent manager; he improved Kyle Walker, Danny Rose and Eric Dier rather than allowing their occasional lapses to turn into regular ones.

I'm not trying to be a fence-sitter, but yes, our defenders are among the most talented around, and yes, they all have room for improvement. When all four are at their best we are a team that wins trophies. And when they're not, we're a team that loses at home to average opposition.

I'd agree with those points and the key issue for me is that while all players have strengths and weaknesses, none of our defenders strengths lie in the "pure" art of defending. Someone like Alderweireld had a clear weakness in terms of pace and the turn but as an actual defender he was good and with Walker alongside to cover he was exceptional. Our defence has been a weakness as ive said for 3 seasons and that has resulted in a slide in position down the table as we know all good teams start off with the premise that they're tough to beat because they're tough to score against. We haven't been tough to score against for a long time now.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

You do understand the difference between the aim and the expectation?

Yes - you clearly don't.

 

[lurker of old]

We haven't been tough to score against for a long time now.
Didn't help that Ange didn't seem bothered about defending in any meaningful sense of the word.
Fortunately Frank has a more thoughtful and less gung-ho approach.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

We haven't been tough to score against for a long time now.
Didn't help that Ange didn't seem bothered about defending in any meaningful sense of the word.
Fortunately Frank has a more thoughtful and less gung-ho approach.

Yes I agree. As many who (much to their detriment) pay attention to my posts on here, I wasn't, shall we say, Ange's biggest fan. I do think he was a big part of the more recent problem. Saying that, I also don't think he was given the best chance of success he could have been given and he was (by no means) the only cause of the problem. We conceded over 60 goals in the season prior to Ange joining and while a far more respectable 40 before that, that is a lot in a Conte system that is primarily set up to prevent the ball going in our own goal.

For context to see how far this defence is under several managers now from where we were in the heady days of Jan, Toby, Hugo and co, we conceded 26 goals in 2016/17 which is the last season we had a proper go at the PL title under Poch with that defence at its absolute peak (beaten to it ironically by Antonio Conte's Chelsea).

So Ange made the problem worse, but.it was already a problem.

I do think Frank is trying to improve our defensive shape and positioning already. But whether he can without sacrificing everything the other way will ultimately dictate the coaching staff's recommendation to Lange and co as to whether they believe the current personnel are up to it. One of the "ITK" folk on another forum reckons that the new coaching staff have suggested VDV's long term future may be at left back. I'd suggest thats just a polite way of saying at first glance they dont think he's a good enough defender to play CB in this league.

 

[Bishop]

you're either baiting people for a reaction or have a really skewed view of football.

Van Der Ven is one of the best up and coming centre halves in Europe - hence the anguish from the likes of Ferdinand and Neville that they got Yoro instead of VDV. Quite apart from his pace, he has all the attributes to be the best in Europe in the next 5 years.

Romero just won player of the Europa League and has been central to Argentina going on a winning streak of trophies. If he costs us a goal as you say every 5 games (I don't believe he does but I'll humour you) then the other 4 he saves us several goals per game. Nuff said.

Ben Davies, far from being our best defender, has been a liability for around 18 months now. Its not his fault, he wasn't suited to the system, but he's slow, he's often in the wrong place, and players around him often have to compensate for his positioning by getting out of position themselves.

Porro was one of the best right backs in Europe last season and played more minutes than virtually any player.

Udogie isn't a wing back - he was a left back in Italy and is a left back now.

Sorry but literally all the information you have presented as facts is rubbish.

Van De Ven really isn't that great at defending in the box, 1 on 1 against his man he gets turned rather easily, its happened multiple times. I think a lot of people have let his pace and great recovery game blind them to the flaws in his basic defending. Hes a very good young player with massive potential but in pure defensive terms hes not currently one of the top defenders in the PL and thats fine for his age.

Porro is really poor defensively man, I love the guy but c'mon hes poooor. He leaves his winger with tons of space and is very easily turned inside out, I will give him that he has tons of heart and and never gives up and he did start to look pretty good under Ange but reverted back to his Conte defensive performance levels in the long run. His plus side is all offensive and NOT defensive.

Udogie literally was a LWB playing for Udinese, I know this I watched him with my own eyes in their 5 at the back system so you're wrong there. I agree though that hes a good player, hampered both by injury and Ange's frankly crap inverted FB system.

 

[Yiddo]

If people think we are going to hit the ground running and be challenging for much this season then they are very much deluded. This unfortunately is going to be another season of transition. We will start to see the Frank way by Christmas but i doubt we will be challenging for anything other than a top 6 spot at the most. It needs time and we don't need the crowd getting on his and the teams backs in Franks first season. Football doesn't work like that.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Van De Ven really isn't that great at defending in the box, 1 on 1 against his man he gets turned rather easily, its happened multiple times. I think a lot of people have let his pace and great recovery game blind them to the flaws in his basic defending. Hes a very good young player with massive potential but in pure defensive terms hes not currently one of the top defenders in the PL and thats fine for his age.

Porro is really poor defensively man, I love the guy but c'mon hes poooor. He leaves his winger with tons of space and is very easily turned inside out, I will give him that he has tons of heart and and never gives up and he did start to look pretty good under Ange but reverted back to his Conte defensive performance levels in the long run. His plus side is all offensive and NOT defensive.

Udogie literally was a LWB playing for Udinese, I know this I watched him with my own eyes in their 5 at the back system so you're wrong there. I agree though that hes a good player, hampered both by injury and Ange's frankly crap inverted FB system.

Yeah, my key point is not that I don't rate these players. As "footballers" they are all very high quality. Porro for example has excellent technique. Its just if you ask me to name each of our defender's best attributes, NONE of them would get a tick next to marking, tackling, positioning, decision making, organisation, heading away corners etc. It would all be: passing, dribbling, pace, vision etc. Now, ultimateky, I think you can carry 1 or 2 players like that in a back four, but if all of your back 4 are like that - Houston, we have a problem! You need that Michael Dawson, John Terry type in there for me. A proper defender.

Also, our forwards are IMO a bit powder puff. A far cry from peak Son/Kane. Johnson is our best finisher but I wouldn't put him exactly in the "goal machine" category and he doesnt impact the game enough for me when he's not finishing. He's like a sh*t Thomas Muller where he's not an out and out striker but he's a winger or shadow striker that pops up and finishes out of nowhere but drifts in and out. Why he's a sh*t Muller is i'm not sure his scoring rate is high enough to warrant carrying him for passages unlike Muller.

Then we get into the midfield. When Maddison doesnt play we really struggle to consistently open up the opposition. So I can see why we are after another creative outlet (MGW). And I don't think we have an adequate "6"/"4"/DM defensive minded central midfielder whatever you want to call it. I might sound down on us but f*ck me guys i wish I was on some of the happy pills some of you have been on having watched the last few years unfold and seeing some of your squad assessments and predictions.

 

[parklane1]

If people think we are going to hit the ground running and be challenging for much this season then they are very much deluded. This unfortunately is going to be another season of transition. We will start to see the Frank way by Christmas but i doubt we will be challenging for anything other than a top 6 spot at the most. It needs time and we don't need the crowd getting on his and the teams backs in Franks first season.

Can not di sagree with any of that, as for the bolded bit [ which i agree with] do not hold your breath on that happening.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I'd agree with those points and the key issue for me is that while all players have strengths and weaknesses, none of our defenders strengths lie in the "pure" art of defending. Someone like Alderweireld had a clear weakness in terms of pace and the turn but as an actual defender he was good and with Walker alongside to cover he was exceptional. Our defence has been a weakness as ive said for 3 seasons and that has resulted in a slide in position down the table as we know all good teams start off with the premise that they're tough to beat because they're tough to score against. We haven't been tough to score against for a long time now.

They have been doing a bundle of work on the 'pure art' of defending in training.
It's been a good watch tbh.

 

[Muttley]

They have been doing a bundle of work on the 'pure art' of defending in training.
It's been a good watch tbh.

That's good to hear.

It is definitely hard to differentiate between Ange's rubbish "team defensive system" and the qualities of the individual defenders and the back 4 unit as a whole. Under Frank, I'm more than willing to sacrifice some goals going in to see us get this problem sorted. I do think the current personnel need the first opportunity to do that. We might be pleasantly surprised.

I probably sounded like a broken record at times last season but what broke the players most was the offside tactics that Ange wanted to execute. Even when a player was sprinting back with their runner they had to stop at our "line". When the ball was in a wide area, you could see these players focusing more on the "line" than picking up markers and getting goal side. For me, offside can work when you want to play a high line. However, when you're back in your own third you need to let the players do the things that come more naturally. Ange just didn't do that, and it was made worse with the chopping and changing due to injuries. Ange's defensive system was all too ideal and not practical enough for the PL. I hope Frank's is what is needed as I'm not sure I can tolerate another season of so much good work in the 90 coming to nothing because of defensive tactics.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

They have been doing a bundle of work on the 'pure art' of defending in training.
It's been a good watch tbh.

Yeah you can see that in the friendlies so far. I think we will see some struggles early doors, particularly in terms of attacking as we rebalance but I think he is certainly working on the right area for me.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

That's good to hear.

It is definitely hard to differentiate between Ange's rubbish "team defensive system" and the qualities of the individual defenders and the back 4 unit as a whole. Under Frank, I'm more than willing to sacrifice some goals going in to see us get this problem sorted. I do think the current personnel need the first opportunity to do that. We might be pleasantly surprised.

I probably sounded like a broken record at times last season but what broke the players most was the offside tactics that Ange wanted to execute. Even when a player was sprinting back with their runner they had to stop at our "line". When the ball was in a wide area, you could see these players focusing more on the "line" than picking up markers and getting goal side. For me, offside can work when you want to play a high line. However, when you're back in your own third you need to let the players do the things that come more naturally. Ange just didn't do that, and it was made worse with the chopping and changing due to injuries. Ange's defensive system was all too ideal and not practical enough for the PL. I hope Frank's is what is needed as I'm not sure I can tolerate another season of so much good work in the 90 coming to nothing because of defensive tactics.

Spot on is this assessment. Saudi Sportswashing Machine away exemplifies it. Actually dominated them on their own pitch, got it back to 1-1 and you think there will be only one winner - then we play this really weird flat line offside trap when they attack and they just pass it straight through us and rather than track the runner they just all stand there in a line like statues and its 2-1 and game lost from actually one of our best performances of all last season.