European Super League - Dead on arrival

[glasgowspur]

Sadowitz is the guvnor. Seen him live three times, never disappoints.

Never seen him, but said mate loves him.

 

[mephitis]

How many posts have you tapped out on hear about legal action and lord knows what else. If I’m a bed wetter your on a lilo in a fetid pool of your own effluent.

And "RACHEL" (cutting ), please now realise, it won’t happen, not never*.

*

 

[Raziel]

And yet your solution to financial doping is .... financial super doping?

Wet the bed? My main objection was that it could lead to the end of Spurs as it was so vapid and arrogant.

How many posts have you tapped out on hear about legal action and lord knows what else. If I’m a bed wetter your on a lilo in a fetid pool of your own effluent.

And Rachel, please now realise, it won’t happen, not never.

ESL -> provided consistent income to all parties from participation in a competition with a set wage cap = how is that financial doping? vs. a Slave state using government funds on a PR exercise (this is where I truly don't understand people like you, so fudging self righteous and moral high ground re ESL, but hey, Racism in the game = cool, actually we'll fudging boo people trying to do something about it, money from blood states or Oligarchs with direct ties to murder and oppression = cool, private business trying to compete with the corruption of UEFA = completely unacceptable)

My points on court has been proven, Madrid, Barca and Juve have refused to distance themselves from ESL and UEFA has quietly dropped any proceedings against them (think they did that because their lawyers felt the case was anything but a loss?)

First time I've been called Rachel for what it's worth.

As I said earlier, time will tell.

 

[johnola]

ESL -> provided consistent income to all parties from participation in a competition with a set wage cap = how is that financial doping? vs. a Slave state using government funds on a PR exercise (this is where I truly don't understand people like you, so fudging self righteous and moral high ground re ESL, but hey, Racism in the game = cool, actually we'll fudging boo people trying to do something about it, money from blood states or Oligarchs with direct ties to murder and oppression = cool, private business trying to compete with the corruption of UEFA = completely unacceptable)

My points on court has been proven, Madrid, Barca and Juve have refused to distance themselves from ESL and UEFA has quietly dropped any proceedings against them (think they did that because their lawyers felt the case was anything but a loss?)

First time I've been called Rachel for what it's worth.

As I said earlier, time will tell.

Time told. It took two days.

And dredging up non sequiturs such as fighting slavery and racism, (once again) from your sludge pit, in defence of setting up an anti competitive cartel is not helping your argument one bit.

If you think an absence of legal action is validation, you are yet again, wildly wrong.

If the ESL really does lead to the solving of ills, peace and love between all people, an end to racism, better sporting competition and standards of football administration, a settlement of all inherited and remembered damage caused by historic human bondage. Then yes, truly wonderful, but unfortunately that is all self righteous horse brick.

 

[Raziel]

Time told. It took two days.

And dredging up non sequiturs such as fighting slavery and racism, (once again) from your sludge pit, in defence of setting up an anti competitive cartel is not helping your argument one bit.

If you think an absence of legal action is validation, you are yet again, wildly wrong.

If the ESL really does lead to the solving of ills, peace and love between all people, an end to racism, better sporting competition and standards of football administration, a settlement of all inherited and remembered damage caused by historic human bondage. Then yes, truly wonderful, but unfortunately that is all self righteous horse brick.

Do you even read?

I said all the people (including you) seemingly have no issue with all the ills in football, but somehow the "anti-competitive" cartel is a step too far

I did not say the ESL solved any of those things (in the case of revenue disparity it minimizes the ability of City/PSG/Chelsea to have a gap to other top clubs)

The only self righteous brick here is asshats who think protesting against the ESL is some moral high ground, and the self congratulations of saving the horse that is already dead is hilarious

 

[Bishop]

Do you even read?

I said all the people (including you) seemingly have no issue with all the ills in football, but somehow the "anti-competitive" cartel is a step too far

I did not say the ESL solved any of those things (in the case of revenue disparity it minimizes the ability of City/PSG/Chelsea to have a gap to other top clubs)

The only self righteous brick here is asshats who think protesting against the ESL is some moral high ground, and the self congratulations of saving the horse that is already dead is hilarious

So why not cut up and mutilate the horse some more is your answer?

 

[Raziel]

So why not cut up and mutilate the horse some more is your answer?

Missing the point mate

- The game has problems that should be addressed
- The ESL to some people's opinion (not mine) created a closed shop (my point is that is already the case)
- The ESL didn't happen now (3 clubs and JP Morgan have all publicly stated it still exists)

And what you have is people who believe the problem is fixed "because we showed those elites" (the class chip on the shoulder in the UK is a fudging log), yet no serious acknowledgement of the problems that haven't gone away or any plan/activism to do anything.

If fan power has been shown, what about the rest of the ills in football? or is it as I said earlier -> none of those things really matter to people as long as there is enough illusion of competition in the game, or even worse, without being led like sheep by the media, without being told what is good/bad, people are unable to see it?

I don't give a fudge about the ESL other than any potential benefit Spurs would gain, I don't fudging care about the pyramid or the Government/FA/UEFA (who have repeatedly fudged us at the slightest opportunity year over year). My points in this thread are based on understanding execution of sports in multiple countries (unlike a number of people who are convinced any sport without relegation is immediately non-competitive/boring due to their ignorance of sports outside the UK), based on billion dollar investments usually requiring some kind of if not protection, safeguards on return and finally a pretty good understanding of anti-competitive challenges.

I continue to answer any question in genuine debate on this topic because I really don't think people understand it, but all I get is absolute vitriol and no real response other than "elite bad", this will kill English game/pyramid/PL (no idea what's the connection?), no other clubs will make money (CL is still there?) and some vague moral high ground.

And it truly baffles me that people would side against Spurs .. for what, to help West Ham?

 

[Bishop]

Missing the point mate

- The game has problems that should be addressed
- The ESL to some people's opinion (not mine) created a closed shop (my point is that is already the case)
- The ESL didn't happen now (3 clubs and JP Morgan have all publicly stated it still exists)

And what you have is people who believe the problem is fixed "because we showed those elites" (the class chip on the shoulder in the UK is a fudging log), yet no serious acknowledgement of the problems that haven't gone away or any plan/activism to do anything.

If fan power has been shown, what about the rest of the ills in football? or is it as I said earlier -> none of those things really matter to people as long as there is enough illusion of competition in the game, or even worse, without being led like sheep by the media, without being told what is good/bad, people are unable to see it?

I don't give a fudge about the ESL other than any potential benefit Spurs would gain, I don't fudging care about the pyramid or the Government/FA/UEFA (who have repeatedly fudged us at the slightest opportunity year over year). My points in this thread are based on understanding execution of sports in multiple countries (unlike a number of people who are convinced any sport without relegation is immediately non-competitive/boring due to their ignorance of sports outside the UK), based on billion dollar investments usually requiring some kind of if not protection, safeguards on return and finally a pretty good understanding of anti-competitive challenges.

I continue to answer any question in genuine debate on this topic because I really don't think people understand it, but all I get is absolute vitriol and no real response other than "elite bad", this will kill English game/pyramid/PL (no idea what's the connection?), no other clubs will make money (CL is still there?) and some vague moral high ground.

And it truly baffles me that people would side against Spurs .. for what, to help West Ham?

You're comparing to other sports that do not have the pyramid system of promotion and relegation. They are not comparable situations. We have a history in this story and that history is what creates the rich tapestry of fan following. You can't unilaterally change the make changes to the structure of the game and not expect a partisan reaction from the fans. We dot want the ESL and we do not want the elitist structure it promotes.

Considering how many fans on here wax lyrically about progressing "the right way" why are you surprised that as a fan base we DO NOT support an elitist non merit based European competition. I would think it would be obvious that the Spurs fan base leans the other way.

Yes people will have a problem with creating an explicitly closed shop (The ESL), that changes the dynamics of the 100+ years of football structure.

I don't know why you find it so hard to understand? If the ESL had open merit based participation much like the UEFA competitions already do then the reaction to it's announcement would have been very different.

It is the permanently closed loop of the ESL that created the problem. Your making strawman arguements when you bring in racism or other irrelevant points.

 

[Raziel]

You're comparing to other sports that do not have the pyramid system of promotion and relegation. They are not comparable situations. We have a history in this story and that history is what creates the rich tapestry of fan following. You can't unilaterally change the make changes to the structure of the game and not expect a partisan reaction from the fans. We dot want the ESL and we do not want the elitist structure it promotes.

Considering how many fans on here wax lyrically about progressing "the right way" why are you surprised that as a fan base we DO NOT support an elitist non merit based European competition. I would think it would be obvious that the Spurs fan base leans the other way.

Yes people will have a problem with creating an explicitly closed shop (The ESL), that changes the dynamics of the 100+ years of football structure.

I don't know why you find it so hard to understand? If the ESL had open merit based participation much like the UEFA competitions already do then the reaction to it's announcement would have been very different.

It is the permanently closed loop of the ESL that created the problem. Your making strawman arguements when you bring in racism or other irrelevant points.

It's a circular argument, because of the refusal of anyone to debate this properly

- The ESL would be a cup competition (there is no "real" concept of promotion/relegation in cups, just qualification)
- How different is it really than the FA Cup where we just "qualify" on basis of being in PL? (so which of the 6 won't qualify for FA Cup in 20 years?)
- It has no change on PL model.
- This is not some drastic change to the structure of the game, it fudging literally is a single cup that 6 teams will participate in
- I ask again, if this was a summer competition with exactly the same rules, how would it be different?

I'm not straw manning with the racism, money doping, concussion comparisons, I'm calling people out on the moral high ground brick.

Let me help you here, when people make you angry to support something, you are being played/manipulated. The FA & Media in protection of their business interests pushed exactly the right buttons with English fans, all the right keywords "bad elites" "attacks the pyramid" "against our heritage/history" "cartel" with no real analysis.

Let me give you another view
- All 6 of these clubs are private businesses
- These private businesses decided to expand their business model by adding another market
- The government, FA and fans randomly decide that is not "allowed" regardless of economic impact to same clubs.

That is very strange precedent to set

 

[Bishop]

It's a circular argument, because of the refusal of anyone to debate this properly

- The ESL would be a cup competition (there is no "real" concept of promotion/relegation in cups, just qualification)
- How different is it really than the FA Cup where we just "qualify" on basis of being in PL? (so which of the 6 won't qualify for FA Cup in 20 years?)
- It has no change on PL model.
- This is not some drastic change to the structure of the game, it fudging literally is a single cup that 6 teams will participate in
- I ask again, if this was a summer competition with exactly the same rules, how would it be different?

I'm not straw manning with the racism, money doping, concussion comparisons, I'm calling people out on the moral high ground brick.

Let me help you here, when people make you angry to support something, you are being played/manipulated. The FA & Media in protection of their business interests pushed exactly the right buttons with English fans, all the right keywords "bad elites" "attacks the pyramid" "against our heritage/history" "cartel" with no real analysis.

Let me give you another view
- All 6 of these clubs are private businesses
- These private businesses decided to expand their business model by adding another market
- The government, FA and fans randomly decide that is not "allowed" regardless of economic impact to same clubs.

That is very strange precedent to set

Poor comparison, The FA Cup is not limited to just 16 clubs, it's is open to all members of the FA. The fact that the entry requirements are so odd and accessible weaken your argument rather than strengthen it.

It further changes the balance competitiveness of the Premier League. The invited clubs gain even more money making the possibility of a Leicester even more unlikely. It in the long run would change the structure of the PL.

The ESL is elitist and not merit based, by don't of which clubs would be participating it would become the premier European competition yet it was not open to all teams on merit. Once again I'll repeat, the lack of merit based inclusion was the problem, you seem unable to understand this despite being told multiple times.

I don't need the media to tell me an elitist 16 team non merit based competition goes against my principles. I don't even like the idea of anyone besides the winners of a league competing in the CL.

If it were a summer invitational then cool go do your thing but it wasn't. It was a fundamental change to the structure of intercountry domestic competition and that was the entire purpose. To pretend it was anything but this does a disservice to your own arguement and questions why they have even contemplated the entire process in the first place.

 

[Raziel]

It further changes the balance competitiveness of the Premier League. The invited clubs gain even more money making the possibility of a Leicester even more unlikely. It in the long run would change the structure of the PL.

The ESL is elitist and not merit based, by don't of which clubs would be participating it would become the premier European competition yet it was not open to all teams on merit. Once again I'll repeat, the lack of merit based inclusion was the problem, you seem unable to understand this despite being told multiple times.

So here we go, these are the two points

1. It won't, there are 6 ever present teams in the coming up 30 year history of the PL, the top 6 with the odd Everton/Leicester appearance is set and pretty much corresponds to historical income trends. In likelihood if you took the last decade and compared to a ESL influenced decade you might have two outliers in 60 positions. This AGAIN is illusion of competition vs. actual competition.

2. It absolutely is merit based, the merit is brand, the fact that you are vigorously arguing those brands having their own competition will unbalance the structure of the game proves the merit of their qualification (nobody outside of UK gives a brick about Leicester, Villa, etc.)

I won't convince you mate, I'm agnostic re the ESL (only matters if it affects us), so lets let it die here ..

 

[Bishop]

So here we go, these are the two points

1. It won't, there are 6 ever present teams in the coming up 30 year history of the PL, the top 6 with the odd Everton/Leicester appearance is set and pretty much corresponds to historical income trends. In likelihood if you took the last decade and compared to a ESL influenced decade you might have two outliers in 60 positions. This AGAIN is illusion of competition vs. actual competition.

2. It absolutely is merit based, the merit is brand, the fact that you are vigorously arguing those brands having their own competition will unbalance the structure of the game proves the merit of their qualification (nobody outside of UK gives a brick about Leicester, Villa, etc.)

I won't convince you mate, I'm am agnostic re the ESL (only matters if it affects us), so lets let it die here ..

1. The ever present teams are because they performed to a level that kept them ever present. Go back 6 years and Villa were also an ever present. Go back 23 years and we almost got relegated. Promotion and relegation keeps the competition honest, you always have to put your best foot forward or you run the risk of falling away just as Villa did. Again this doesn't help your argument.

Leicester won the PL that isn't an illusion.

2. It's not merit based on the teams actual football performance and that is the only merit it should ever be based on. We took in more money than Leicester last year yet they finished ahead of us. Whose performance will be lauded more? Which team earned the right to play in the EL them or us? In your model we would get the EL place because we want more money than them despite performing far worse.

That is not reward based merit.

You're no more agnostic than I am, your position is super clear and you're fully entitled to it. There's no need to run, it's a friendly debate.

 

[scaramanga]

You're comparing to other sports that do not have the pyramid system of promotion and relegation. They are not comparable situations. We have a history in this story and that history is what creates the rich tapestry of fan following. You can't unilaterally change the make changes to the structure of the game and not expect a partisan reaction from the fans. We dot want the ESL and we do not want the elitist structure it promotes.

Considering how many fans on here wax lyrically about progressing "the right way" why are you surprised that as a fan base we DO NOT support an elitist non merit based European competition. I would think it would be obvious that the Spurs fan base leans the other way.

Yes people will have a problem with creating an explicitly closed shop (The ESL), that changes the dynamics of the 100+ years of football structure.

I don't know why you find it so hard to understand? If the ESL had open merit based participation much like the UEFA competitions already do then the reaction to it's announcement would have been very different.

It is the permanently closed loop of the ESL that created the problem. Your making strawman arguements when you bring in racism or other irrelevant points.

So your reasoning for why we shouldn't have an improved version of the CL that massively benefits out club is that we didn't do things that way yesterday?

Seems like the very worst reason not to do something.

 

[Raziel]

1. The ever present teams are because they performed to a level that kept them ever present. Go back 6 years and Villa were also an ever present. Go back 23 years and we almost got relegated. Promotion and relegation keeps the competition honest, you always have to put your best foot forward or you run the risk of falling away just as Villa did. Again this doesn't help your argument.

Leicester won the PL that isn't an illusion.

2. It's not merit based on the teams actual football performance and that is the only merit it should ever be based on. We took in more money than Leicester last year yet they finished ahead of us. Whose performance will be lauded more? Which team earned the right to play in the EL them or us? In your model we would get the EL place because we want more money than them despite performing far worse.

That is not reward based merit.

You're no more agnostic than I am, your position is super clear and you're fully entitled to it. There's no need to run, it's a friendly debate.

Not running mate, but sometimes we will just never change each others mind ..

- See your point re EL is exactly the confusion, no I don't want to change the PL/EL/CL
- However if Spurs wants (with other teams) to build an entirely new competition that could be a cash cow for us, why should we be blocked based on other teams?
- Some should admit, it is the clubs doing it that is the issue vs. model. Would anyone give a brick if someone built a 2nd division Euro champions cup?

And I am agnostic, the world continuing as is = ok, ESL = could be good for us, I'm not angry either way (outside of being miffed that the FA is fining us for thought crime)

 

[Finney Is Back]

Hahahaha .. no offence but absolute nonsense

- The game is horribly broken right now, so not sure what the celebration is? that City and Chelsea will continue to dominate the domestic game based on money doping?
- Your failure to understand even basic business here, the issue with the clubs is not that their business model failed (United, Pool & Spurs are quite fine from a business model perspective), it is that owners/shareholders are investing billions in teams/infrastructure/etc. yet have very little protection for their investment and somehow are expected to foot the bill for developing the domestic game (e.g. Spurs if funding 20-30 year area regeneration project with no way of guaranteeing revenue year to year)
- If you think the clubs don't have power, why did the FA & UEFA and even FIFA panic like they did? why did BT & Sky suddenly run a media campaign against the ESL? (that you bought hook, line and sinker) because if these twelve clubs have no power, then kick them out now, take away points, demote them, go ahead, I fudging dare anyone. The PL/UEFA's business model does NOT work without those clubs

The big irony is the ESL could have helped the English game
- The top 6 would have had pretty much equal revenue
- The non top 6 would have had open runs at the two domestic cups every season
- The non top 6 could have had shots at Europa and CL as well

The fact that the objectors in Europe were PSG, Bayern and in UK City and Chelsea bailed first should tell you way more than what Neville and Carrager's flimflam was.

Amazing people have the passion argument still going, every major league in Europe sold an entire season of product with zero local spectators and you still think you hold the cards .. keep that thought going ..

In what way are Chelsea money doping?

Reagarding kicking the clubs out, the PL couldn’t do that without 15 votes (probably the whole reason Spurs were included with the big 5 English teams).

 

[Bishop]

So your reasoning for why we shouldn't have an improved version of the CL that massively benefits out club is that we didn't do things that way yesterday?

Seems like the very worst reason not to do something.

No I don't agree that it's an improvement to the CL. The old style European Cup format has not been improved upon.

Not running mate, but sometimes we will just never change each others mind ..

- See your point re EL is exactly the confusion, no I don't want to change the PL/EL/CL
- However if Spurs wants (with other teams) to build an entirely new competition that could be a cash cow for us, why should we be blocked based on other teams?
- Some should admit, it is the clubs doing it that is the issue vs. model. Would anyone give a brick if someone built a 2nd division Euro champions cup?

And I am agnostic, the world continuing as is = ok, ESL = could be good for us, I'm not angry either way (outside of being miffed that the FA is fining us for thought crime)

But the ESL would lead to a change in the PL incidentally or not. The ESL would just further increase the wealth disparity between the club's. 2e should be minimising that not increasing it 3 fold and basically totally making the PL a ghost town. Do you really think the competition would have any merit when there would not even be the prospect of gradual improvement to the top (like ourselves have done and Leicester are doing) when that top table is a closed European competition that no matter how well you perform on the pitch you just can't participate in? That's the opposite of a merit based reward system.

The problem as I keep repeating but you keep ignoring is the closed shop. If UEFA had made their own version of the ESL with the same restrictions on whom could play guess what....the fans would rebelled because it goes against the structure of football which has a fairly simple model. You perform well this season you are rewarded in some form the following season. The ESL does away with that.

You're clearly upset the ESL hasn't happened. You were both feet in. That's why 2 months later you're still here debating and trying to convince all of the pros to the competition.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Football is not broken? you can say that with a strait face?

- United (one of the two biggest clubs in the world) can't afford to compete with City & Chelsea
- Germany & Italy have been one horse races for a decade+, France more recently
- Spain has been a two horse race for eternity, with Atletico hoping for the occasional disaster season.
- Someone did the math, ~87% of all the trophies go to a certain set of clubs.

A whole host of sports have competition without jeopardy, and again, nothing in the domestic leagues changed.

Real question, if it was such a brick idea, if it was so absolutely going to fail, why the reaction? why did you, EPL, FA, UEFA, FIFA, Sky, BT wet the bed at the mere thought of it? why not let the clubs fudge off, go crash and burn in their "competition everyone would get bored of"?

To be continued .. it will happen, the question the next time around is will we be included ..

Because the clubs weren’t intending to fudge of.... they wanted to stay part of their domestic leagues.

 

[Finney Is Back]

ESL -> provided consistent income to all parties from participation in a competition with a set wage cap = how is that financial doping? vs. a Slave state using government funds on a PR exercise (this is where I truly don't understand people like you, so fudging self righteous and moral high ground re ESL, but hey, Racism in the game = cool, actually we'll fudging boo people trying to do something about it, money from blood states or Oligarchs with direct ties to murder and oppression = cool, private business trying to compete with the corruption of UEFA = completely unacceptable)

My points on court has been proven, Madrid, Barca and Juve have refused to distance themselves from ESL and UEFA has quietly dropped any proceedings against them (think they did that because their lawyers felt the case was anything but a loss?)

First time I've been called Rachel for what it's worth.

As I said earlier, time will tell.

How exactly was that wage cap going to work and why would it be any better than FFP?

 

[Finney Is Back]

So your reasoning for why we shouldn't have an improved version of the CL that massively benefits out club is that we didn't do things that way yesterday?

Seems like the very worst reason not to do something.

I didn’t read it as that, I read his reasoning as being that it isn’t based on sporting merit.

 

[johnola]

Do you even read?

I said all the people (including you) seemingly have no issue with all the ills in football, but somehow the "anti-competitive" cartel is a step too far

I did not say the ESL solved any of those things (in the case of revenue disparity it minimizes the ability of City/PSG/Chelsea to have a gap to other top clubs)

The only self righteous brick here is asshats who think protesting against the ESL is some moral high ground, and the self congratulations of saving the horse that is already dead is hilarious

Well I can be self congratulatory as I was correct. It was a terrible idea and it got short shrift.

Well done me.

I’m not on the moral high ground but I guess you can’t see the higher peaks from down where you are in wrongland.