ENIC

[Bishop]

Ginola was great to watch but was a long way from being a great player.

We have no great players as it stands. Ginola had gaps to his game for sure, but realistically right now in this side at least in the attacking aspect who competes with him? I don't see anyone close tbh now that Son has declined.

 

[Craig_J]

There is also not Thousands of Rodri level either, let alone those mentioned on here. Which is part of my point.

Anyway like yiu say....Enic.

I do have to be fair guys in saying maybe I spoke out of turn about finding football completely "boring" because I do myself getting on with next season regardless....


But I do definently still feel as a kid you had Robbie Fowler and Anelka playing for City. Not modern day City but standard "about as good as Everton today Emirates Marketing Project". You also had the fun of Jay Jay Okcoha going to Bolton to play under fat Sam.

No way anyone can compare Fowler or Anelka to any modern day mid table Prem player. Let alone compare him to the joys of JJ Ochoca for Bolton

 

[billyiddo]

Both Fowler & Anelka were well past their best when at City tbf

 

[SirPercyHotspur]

Shehan Dissanayake chairman of Tavistock Group has left , wonder where does that leave Josh Levy who is co-CEO at the group on whose website Spurs get top billing .

MSN

 

[Finney Is Back]

We have no great players as it stands. Ginola had gaps to his game for sure, but realistically right now in this side at least in the attacking aspect who competes with him? I don't see anyone close tbh now that Son has declined.

Son and Kulu both significantly better than Ginola. Johnson certainly far more effective. Ginola didn't play to team instructions and didn't defend his opposite number. He went on some lovely mazy dribbles and scored a few worldies. I loved watching him. However, the top teams didn't want him because he wasn't actually particularly effective. He played 100 PL games for Spurs and scored only 13 goals. His overall PL record was 195 games played, 22 goals scored. A goal every 8.5 games, for a player that did no defending at all.

By contrast, Johnson (again Ole Ole) - a player that you really don't rate at all - has scored 16 goals in 65 games for Spurs - a rate of 1 in 4 and has an overall PL record of 40 goals in 146 games - a goal every 3.65 games. That from a player who does play to team orders and also defends against his opposite number.

I think you were blinded by some great dribbling and a few worldies mate.

 

[Muttley]

I do have to be fair guys in saying maybe I spoke out of turn about finding football completely "boring" because I do myself getting on with next season regardless....


But I do definently still feel as a kid you had Robbie Fowler and Anelka playing for City. Not modern day City but standard "about as good as Everton today Emirates Marketing Project". You also had the fun of Jay Jay Okcoha going to Bolton to play under fat Sam.

No way anyone can compare Fowler or Anelka to any modern day mid table Prem player. Let alone compare him to the joys of JJ Ochoca for Bolton

I don't think you spoke out of turn at all. What I find most interesting is that so many of our experiences of football nowadays is about all of the wrappers. The socials, the different TV and radio shows and all the razzmatazz surrounding the match itself. Even the implementation of VAR was another huge distraction from the actual game of football.

What you shone a light on was the actual 90 mins itself. I think it is fair to say that the actual 90 min entertainment has diminished considerably over the years. It's definitely how I feel.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I don't think you spoke out of turn at all. What I find most interesting is that so many of our experiences of football nowadays is about all of the wrappers. The socials, the different TV and radio shows and all the razzmatazz surrounding the match itself. Even the implementation of VAR was another huge distraction from the actual game of football.

What you shone a light on was the actual 90 mins itself. I think it is fair to say that the actual 90 min entertainment has diminished considerably over the years. It's definitely how I feel.

I think there could be a correlation though.

One can spend so much time on all the 'wrappers', and not discounting how addictive and emotional button pressing some of those wrappers can be, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a level of exhaustion, overload and importance shifting among football fans.

 

[Bishop]

Son and Kulu both significantly better than Ginola. Johnson certainly far more effective. Ginola didn't play to team instructions and didn't defend his opposite number. He went on some lovely mazy dribbles and scored a few worldies. I loved watching him. However, the top teams didn't want him because he wasn't actually particularly effective. He played 100 PL games for Spurs and scored only 13 goals. His overall PL record was 195 games played, 22 goals scored. A goal every 8.5 games, for a player that did no defending at all.

By contrast, Johnson (again Ole Ole) - a player that you really don't rate at all - has scored 16 goals in 65 games for Spurs - a rate of 1 in 4 and has an overall PL record of 40 goals in 146 games - a goal every 3.65 games. That from a player who does play to team orders and also defends against his opposite number.

I think you were blinded by some great dribbling and a few worldies mate.

We are going to have to agree to disagree because I don't rate players on statistical returns, stats are useful but they often lack context. Johnson's stats look decent but he contributed nothing outside of finishing a particular type of chance to the team s overall hindrance, he's a poor footballer and someone whom if we tried to sell none of the top 6 teams would even consider him, I'd be surprised tbh if even a top 8 would consider dropping 60m on him. With regards to his stats Luis Figo never had a single season goal scoring wise that matched Johnson last season yet I know which player I would take all day and every single day. Would you also take Johnson over him due to his better goals record?

With Ginola talking about his goal numbers in comparison to today is a little disingenuous. He played as a winger in the days when they were expected to create far more than to score. With his skillset, in today's game he would play as a LWF and be rather effective I think. You can rate Johnson if you wish, but I just value overall contribution, effectiveness and participation more than simply finishing off a chance.

 

[harr1984]

We are going to have to agree to disagree because I don't rate players on statistical returns, stats are useful but they often lack context. Johnson's stats look decent but he contributed nothing outside of finishing a particular type of chance to the team s overall hindrance, he's a poor footballer and someone whom if we tried to sell none of the top 6 teams would even consider him, I'd be surprised tbh if even a top 8 would consider dropping 60m on him. With regards to his stats Luis Figo never had a single season goal scoring wise that matched Johnson last season yet I know which player I would take all day and every single day. Would you also take Johnson over him due to his better goals record?

With Ginola talking about his goal numbers in comparison to today is a little disingenuous. He played as a winger in the days when they were expected to create far more than to score. With his skillset, in today's game he would play as a LWF and be rather effective I think. You can rate Johnson if you wish, but I just value overall contribution, effectiveness and participation more than simply finishing off a chance.

I'm kind of conflicted, as I agree with both of you. But Ginola was the shining light during a terrible period, and let's not forget he was voted Premier League Player of the Year by the players - that is quite some feat for anyone, but playing in a team as rubbish as ours doubly so.

Also regardless of goals, I remember countless times he would skin a couple of players out wide and whip in a delicious ball only for it not to be converted - and unfortunately we didn't have stats such as 'big chances created' floating around in those days.....

 

[Lilbaz]

I'm kind of conflicted, as I agree with both of you. But Ginola was the shining light during a terrible period, and let's not forget he was voted Premier League Player of the Year by the players - that is quite some feat for anyone, but playing in a team as rubbish as ours doubly so.

Also regardless of goals, I remember countless times he would skin a couple of players out wide and whip in a delicious ball only for it not to be converted - and unfortunately we didn't have stats such as 'big chances created' floating around in those days.....

He got both didn't he? The writers player of the season aswell.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I'm kind of conflicted, as I agree with both of you. But Ginola was the shining light during a terrible period, and let's not forget he was voted Premier League Player of the Year by the players - that is quite some feat for anyone, but playing in a team as rubbish as ours doubly so.

Also regardless of goals, I remember countless times he would skin a couple of players out wide and whip in a delicious ball only for it not to be converted - and unfortunately we didn't have stats such as 'big chances created' floating around in those days.....

As I said.... Great to watch, but far from a great player. A goal every 8.5 games is an incredibly poor return for a player that refuses to defend.

Also - just about every player in the game create countless chances that aren't converted. I've seen a video reel of the number of (missed) chances that Kulu created for example.

Regarding @Bishop's point about wingers being expected to create far more than they scored back then. Here are the combined PL goals and assists records for Ginola and Johnson:
Ginola: 56 in 195 PL games - 1 goal or assist every 3.48 games
Johnson: 43 in 106 PL games - 1 goal or assist every 2.47 games

To add in a few other current players:

Kulusevski: 44 in 116 = a goal or assist every 2.64 games
Son: 204 in 333 = a goal or assist every 1.63 games
Maddison: 107 in 222 = a goal or assist every 2.07 games.

Every single one of these players works harder defensively than Ginola did and yet out rank him for G+A (surely the thing that an attacker who doesn't defend should be judged on?)

Season 1988/1989 was perhaps Ginola's best season at Spurs, in that season he had 12 combined PL goals and assists (Johnson got 33% more than that both last season and the season before at Spurs). All of these players had better G+A numbers than Ginola did that season: Gus Poyet, Darren Huckerby, Steve Guppy, Paulo Wanchope, Eyal Berkovic, Benito Carbone, Marcus Gayle, Harry Kewell, Julian Joachim, David Beckham, Dion Dublin and Hamilton Ricard (and that is before considering the players who actually were great players like Shearer, Cole, Bergkamp, Hasselbaink, Anelka, Owen and Zola)

Had Ginola not been devilishly handsome I doubt he would've got anywhere the adulation he did. I also doubt he would get a mention if fans of other clubs were listing great PL players.

I loved watching him. I also met him a few times and he is an absolutely lovely fella, who can't do enough for fans. But was he a great player? No way!.... and his level of output shows that.

 

[Finney Is Back]

We are going to have to agree to disagree because I don't rate players on statistical returns, stats are useful but they often lack context. Johnson's stats look decent but he contributed nothing outside of finishing a particular type of chance to the team s overall hindrance, he's a poor footballer and someone whom if we tried to sell none of the top 6 teams would even consider him, I'd be surprised tbh if even a top 8 would consider dropping 60m on him. With regards to his stats Luis Figo never had a single season goal scoring wise that matched Johnson last season yet I know which player I would take all day and every single day. Would you also take Johnson over him due to his better goals record?

With Ginola talking about his goal numbers in comparison to today is a little disingenuous. He played as a winger in the days when they were expected to create far more than to score. With his skillset, in today's game he would play as a LWF and be rather effective I think. You can rate Johnson if you wish, but I just value overall contribution, effectiveness and participation more than simply finishing off a chance.

It's not that I particularly rate Johnson. I think he is alright, though sure I absolutely rate him as being a lot better than you give him credit for (always find it weird when people want to discount certain types of goals?... really strange?)

It is more just that I didn't particularly rate Ginola. Sure he had lovely ball control, went on mazy runs and scored a few worldies as well as being devilishly handsome with great hair. But if you are talking about overall contribution, effectiveness and participation then it is pretty clear that Johnson outranks Ginola, who had an incredibly poor goal return as well as a pretty average at best goals + assists return and also didn't contribute at all to our play when he wasn't on the ball - whether that was not bothering to defend against his opposite number or not bothering to get himself to the back post when the ball was on the other side of the pitch.

 

[Raziel]

A lot of games are incredibly boring now. There have always been boring and entertaining games. Football is no more entertaining in general now. I'd argue that generally the overall quality feels lower in the last 5-7 years that ever. Again if your focus is just the PL then maybe from that perspective it's better but across Europe it definitely isn't.

The point would be what do you look for in a game (e.g. I was never enamored by Barca's tippy tappy game but clearly many were)

I'd say maverick/flair players are clearly not in fashion now, similar to poacher type strikers are much less common now.

That said, modern/boring sides would likely quite easily beat great sides of old, today's athletes would simply out run, out press, out pace those teams, and probably from about 70 minutes on, just kill them on stamina (players are miles fitter today). There is a reason records get broken in all sports over time, players are simply better athletes, better fitness and recovery, better nutrition, better data, list goes on.

So while there are lot of players I'll remember fondly, anyone more that 15 years back would probably really struggle in a modern team.

 

[harr1984]

As I said.... Great to watch, but far from a great player. A goal every 8.5 games is an incredibly poor return for a player that refuses to defend.

Also - just about every player in the game create countless chances that aren't converted. I've seen a video reel of the number of (missed) chances that Kulu created for example.

Regarding @Bishop's point about wingers being expected to create far more than they scored back then. Here are the combined PL goals and assists records for Ginola and Johnson:
Ginola: 56 in 195 PL games - 1 goal or assist every 3.48 games
Johnson: 43 in 106 PL games - 1 goal or assist every 2.47 games

To add in a few other current players:

Kulusevski: 44 in 116 = a goal or assist every 2.64 games
Son: 204 in 333 = a goal or assist every 1.63 games
Maddison: 107 in 222 = a goal or assist every 2.07 games.

Every single one of these players works harder defensively than Ginola did and yet out rank him for G+A (surely the thing that an attacker who doesn't defend should be judged on?)

Season 1988/1989 was perhaps Ginola's best season at Spurs, in that season he had 12 combined PL goals and assists (Johnson got 33% more than that both last season and the season before at Spurs). All of these players had better G+A numbers than Ginola did that season: Gus Poyet, Darren Huckerby, Steve Guppy, Paulo Wanchope, Eyal Berkovic, Benito Carbone, Marcus Gayle, Harry Kewell, Julian Joachim, David Beckham, Dion Dublin and Hamilton Ricard (and that is before considering the players who actually were great players like Shearer, Cole, Bergkamp, Hasselbaink, Anelka, Owen and Zola)

Had Ginola not been devilishly handsome I doubt he would've got anywhere the adulation he did. I also doubt he would get a mention if fans of other clubs were listing great PL players.

I loved watching him. I also met him a few times and he is an absolutely lovely fella, who can't do enough for fans. But was he a great player? No way!.... and his level of output shows that.

Like I said, goals and assists is one thing - what about chances created? Almost all matches I watched Ginola he was double marked, and he was a traditional winger who hugged the touchline for the most part. So it doesn't surprise me most of those named got more goals/assists but that stat is far from the whole story. Poyet/Huckerby/Guppy etc were not as good a player as Ginola and I will not hear otherwise ....

 

[Finney Is Back]

Like I said, goals and assists is one thing - what about chances created? Almost all matches I watched Ginola he was double marked, and he was a traditional winger who hugged the touchline for the most part. So it doesn't surprise me most of those named got more goals/assists but that stat is far from the whole story. Poyet/Huckerby/Guppy etc were not as good a player as Ginola and I will not hear otherwise ....

I think Poyet was a better player than Ginola, not as easy on the eye but I think he was more effective. I agree on the other two though. I don't really remember Ginola being 'double marked', though I do remember him waiting on the touchline for somebody to pass him the ball (I don't remember the opposition parking two players out there to mark him).

'Chances created' is an impossible one for us to comment on because that stat only started to be captured reasonably recently. It would be very unusual for players to have wildly varying chances created numbers compared to their assist numbers though - especially if captured over a reasonable sample size. Ginola was a great player to watch when he had the ball, I think that often clouds judgement in terms of how effective he actually was as a player though.