ENIC

[ricky2tricky4city]

Are we wealthy? I don’t see that
I see a company with a high turnover that people assume means cash in the bank or wealth
I do fully agree they have got it wrong on concessions. The thing they bro wrong was making it such that once you reach a certain age it instantly means a discount. I thought they only offered that in the north stand and a certain number of them but apparently not
The younger fans problem is another that isn’t an easy fix
The problem in football is the money goes to the players and not the clubs. The players earn more and more whilst most don’t deliver enough to warrant it. That drain on all clubs finances is huge

I think that's the problem they have hinted at. The ST holder just migrates to concession pricing as they reach that age regardless of where they sit. That number has grown massively and the discounts given add up as a headwind to matchday revenue. Plus I think (well they've hinted in the ticketing charter) they think dodgy practices are going on and the name on the ST isn't the person attending, and some profiteering is going on, hence the now monitoring of individual attendance.

As I said the other day I'd reduce the concession to Seniors but raise the concession for young adults so it matches at around 33%. Got to get the younger supporter numbers up (they probably spend more once in the ground as well)

 

[Grays_1890]

It's only greed if the money goes somewhere other than back into club (words matter)

You may disagree with the model but it's not hording/greed/cheap if the money goes back into club/infrastructure/squad.

Well it does when all told because there are certain black holes of finances that are greed, its unfashionable and deemed screaming into the ether but wages are nothing but greed now.

We make more match day and commercial money than anyone bar 2 or 3 clubs globally yet pay near on more than anyone to watch their team. I've long been on the side of you touch yourself you makes your choice but with the additional revenue streams now taken, from less loyal avenues such as concerts etc I think it's rather crude to then also push fan loyalty.

Yes I get it's the modern way and I'm not naive. Doesn't make it sit right though

I'm not one of these weirdos saying Levy doesn't deserve his salary BUT as @Bedfordspurs rightly says, the players wages are out of control and a massive hole considering a club that turnsover is so high, it's almost the un talked about or not to be talked about elephant in the room still, weirdly some.fans want them paid more.....utterly mind bogling really

 

[Raziel]

Are we wealthy? I don’t see that
I see a company with a high turnover that people assume means cash in the bank or wealth
I do fully agree they have got it wrong on concessions. The thing they bro wrong was making it such that once you reach a certain age it instantly means a discount. I thought they only offered that in the north stand and a certain number of them but apparently not
The younger fans problem is another that isn’t an easy fix
The problem in football is the money goes to the players and not the clubs. The players earn more and more whilst most don’t deliver enough to warrant it. That drain on all clubs finances is huge

Bingo

- People confuse turnover increases, ability to spend within PSR/FFP rules still, top 10 club financially in the world, even years where we do have record profit with "wealthy"

We have had to play catchup every since the PL & CL (in current model) started and we weren't part of top 4 (those teams got a decade long head start), the club has had to invest billions in infrastructure and now squad

- The club has done an amazing job catching up on the turnover and improving the infrastructure
- We are actually competitive as well on field (haven't managed to make it count but we do compete)

None of those things mean the club is sitting on some hoard of cash

To the point of ticket prices

- Simon Jordon (yes, he's a taco but unlike other journalists has some real world idea of running a club) talks constantly about players cost/wages being the key driver in everything going up
- Re concessions, honestly I don't know enough but there has been an ongoing issue of people renewing season tickets and not going, just reselling or giving (to younger) family members
- Re younger fans, like a whole lot of brick in this country, housing, transport costs, entertainment, I don't know the answer, I do know it's not a Spurs thing, even clubs like Fulham are pushing their prices into idiot levels.

 

[Raziel]

Well it does when all told because there are certain black holes of finances that are greed, its unfashionable and deemed screaming into the ether but wages are nothing but greed now.

We the fans demand results from the club
Largest real indicator of success over time is wages (not net spend flimflam)
Club raises prices to facilitate improving squad (tickets/merchandise/etc.)
Club supplements that with non-football events so football fans don't bear 100% of the burden
Club spends money on squad (as seen in recent years)
Fans bitch about prices

I want to be clear here, I'm not defending the club, I'm trying to understand the expectation?

Will any real percentage of Spurs fans be cool if the club came out and said we are going to freeze ticket prices for another 10 years but as a result we will need to sell our best players and will likely not be competing for even CL spots anymore?

Or are we back to the only "real/good" owners are oligarchs or state owned sports washing that can just dump untold amounts of blood money into the club?

I get it, my tickets are fudging expensive and I question my financial intelligence when I add the costs plus match day expenses, but what is the alternative for the club? (as an individual I can go watch my local for £45 a season, which I do pay just to support, but as a club?)

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Bingo

- People confuse turnover increases, ability to spend within PSR/FFP rules still, top 10 club financially in the world, even years where we do have record profit with "wealthy"

We have had to play catchup every since the PL & CL (in current model) started and we weren't part of top 4 (those teams got a decade long head start), the club has had to invest billions in infrastructure and now squad

- The club has done an amazing job catching up on the turnover and improving the infrastructure
- We are actually competitive as well on field (haven't managed to make it count but we do compete)

None of those things mean the club is sitting on some hoard of cash

To the point of ticket prices

- Simon Jordon (yes, he's a taco but unlike other journalists has some real world idea of running a club) talks constantly about players cost/wages being the key driver in everything going up
- Re concessions, honestly I don't know enough but there has been an ongoing issue of people renewing season tickets and not going, just reselling or giving (to younger) family members
- Re younger fans, like a whole lot of brick in this country, housing, transport costs, entertainment, I don't know the answer, I do know it's not a Spurs thing, even clubs like Fulham are pushing their prices into idiot levels.

When clubs run their player finances close to 80-100% of income...it's obvious where the money goes. And any increase (in anything else) flows that way.

Running a football club is extremely hard (and precarious) given that tight rope.
It must be galling to think of the work that might go in to developing a revenue stream (eg the racetrack and formula 1 partnership) and then think that new income might just cover Ndombeles wages for the year.

The distortion is unreal, the cost of one player compared to turnover (note, not profit) is unlike any other business, and thats before considering the variables of unquantifiable risks of that player.

Of course, this is all from a view of any club that is trying to run sustainably.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I want to be clear here, I'm not defending the club, I'm trying to understand the expectation?

I think you're trying to understand the wrong thing.

 

[Grays_1890]

We the fans demand results from the club
Largest real indicator of success over time is wages (not net spend flimflam)
Club raises prices to facilitate improving squad (tickets/merchandise/etc.)
Club supplements that with non-football events so football fans don't bear 100% of the burden
Club spends money on squad (as seen in recent years)
Fans bitch about prices

I want to be clear here, I'm not defending the club, I'm trying to understand the expectation?

Will any real percentage of Spurs fans be cool if the club came out and said we are going to freeze ticket prices for another 10 years but as a result we will need to sell our best players and will likely not be competing for even CL spots anymore?

Or are we back to the only "real/good" owners are oligarchs or state owned sports washing that can just dump untold amounts of blood money into the club?

I get it, my tickets are fudging expensive and I question my financial intelligence when I add the costs plus match day expenses, but what is the alternative for the club? (as an individual I can go watch my local for £45 a season, which I do pay just to support, but as a club?)

I've been massively balanced about our club and Levy so haven't bitched personally and I continue to be balanced in the fact that 3m extra revenue does nothing to impact the bolded when increased revenue is more than covering those AND we already paid near on the most in the league.

And that's without what is going to be those actual operational costs pushed on fans aswell come match day next year when food and drink costs rise to protect profit margins again, so it's going to be an absolute double dip operation on fans.

The whole thing comes down to pushing the negligible costs onto those that will feel it most rather those that comfortably navigate it, just because others do it (not everyone does BTW) doesn't mean it sits right and it certainly doesn't mean wanting fcuking Russian or state money into the club.

I love watching my club and although I pretty much give up that live right to allow my nephew to have the tickets and keep them in the family after 20+ years and I am lucky to be able to afford them comfortably, but I question if the price is value for money, if we woke up tomorrow and found out we were Real Madrid I question it, so its likely next season will be the last I pay.

Anyway it is what it is.....

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I've been massively balanced about our club and Levy so haven't bitched personally and I continue to be balanced in the fact that 3m extra revenue does nothing to impact the bolded when increased revenue is more than covering those AND we already paid near on the most in the league

I think that's where I land on ST increases.

The reasoning the club has given us is valid (and does 'hold water' despite the Trusts comments to the contrary). BUT if you total the effect rises have on 40k supporters and compare that to some other ways we despose of £3m worth of income every year (probably paying off the Matt Doherty blunder for example), it just doesn't sit right.

We'll probably eek out that extra cash from next year's STs ...then spend it on an agent that gets us a back up winger from the french league

Plus we should not forget we are starting from a high ticket cost in the first place.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think that's the problem they have hinted at. The ST holder just migrates to concession pricing as they reach that age regardless of where they sit. That number has grown massively and the discounts given add up as a headwind to matchday revenue. Plus I think (well they've hinted in the ticketing charter) they think dodgy practices are going on and the name on the ST isn't the person attending, and some profiteering is going on, hence the now monitoring of individual attendance.

As I said the other day I'd reduce the concession to Seniors but raise the concession for young adults so it matches at around 33%. Got to get the younger supporter numbers up (they probably spend more once in the ground as well)

Young supporters are the future and the way wets ham have given away tickets to bring them in can work in their favour eventually …

 

[Grays_1890]

I think that's where I land on ST increases.

The reasoning the club has given us is valid (and does 'hold water' despite the Trusts comments to the contrary). BUT if you total the effect rises have on 40k supporters and compare that to some other ways we despose of £3m worth of income every year (probably paying off the Matt Doherty blunder for example), it just doesn't sit right.

We'll probably eek out that extra cash from next year's STs ...then spend it on an agent that gets us a back up winger from the french league

Plus we should not forget we are starting from a high ticket cost in the first place.

Exactly and look I am far from uneducated with how football is, but just because we have allowed ourselves to sleepwalk to this point does not make it right.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

When clubs run their player finances close to 80-100% of income...it's obvious where the money goes. And any increase (in anything else) flows that way.

Running a football club is extremely hard (and precarious) given that tight rope.
It must be galling to think of the work that might go in to developing a revenue stream (eg the racetrack and formula 1 partnership) and then think that new income might just cover Ndombeles wages for the year.

The distortion is unreal, the cost of one player compared to turnover (note, not profit) is unlike any other business, and thats before considering the variables of unquantifiable risks of that player.

Of course, this is all from a view of any club that is trying to run sustainably.

There is a relatively easy metric to work out the real cost of a player… double the fee
A £25m player on a 5 year contract is likely to be on £5m a year
There will be odd ones like Johnson who won’t be of course but that’s a realistic yard stick IMO for a club of our size

 

[Raziel]

Well, to the earlier point, the state of the game is such that with record revenue our chairman (who does understand money) feels we need additional external investment

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/so...-talks-over-selling-stake-in-club/ar-BB1kZiAy

Daniel Levy, the Tottenham chairman, has revealed he is in talks with “prospective investors” about selling a stake in the club.

In his statement accompanying the club's financial results to the year ending June 2023, Levy said Spurs needed new investment to reach their “long-term potential”.

Levy's statement read: “To capitalise on our long-term potential, to continue to invest in the teams and undertake future capital projects, the Club requires a significant increase in its equity base.

“The Board and its advisors, Rothschild & Co, are in discussions with prospective investors. Any recommended investment proposal would require the support of the Club’s shareholders.”

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Well, to the earlier point, the state of the game is such that with record revenue our chairman (who does understand money) feels we need additional external investment

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/so...-talks-over-selling-stake-in-club/ar-BB1kZiAy

Daniel Levy, the Tottenham chairman, has revealed he is in talks with “prospective investors” about selling a stake in the club.

In his statement accompanying the club's financial results to the year ending June 2023, Levy said Spurs needed new investment to reach their “long-term potential”.

Levy's statement read: “To capitalise on our long-term potential, to continue to invest in the teams and undertake future capital projects, the Club requires a significant increase in its equity base.

“The Board and its advisors, Rothschild & Co, are in discussions with prospective investors. Any recommended investment proposal would require the support of the Club’s shareholders.”

Bloody good news though
It’s key for what we do next and can be a game changer with our set up

 

[Mikey10]

I've been massively balanced about our club and Levy so haven't bitched personally and I continue to be balanced in the fact that 3m extra revenue does nothing to impact the bolded when increased revenue is more than covering those AND we already paid near on the most in the league.

And that's without what is going to be those actual operational costs pushed on fans aswell come match day next year when food and drink costs rise to protect profit margins again, so it's going to be an absolute double dip operation on fans.

The whole thing comes down to pushing the negligible costs onto those that will feel it most rather those that comfortably navigate it, just because others do it (not everyone does BTW) doesn't mean it sits right and it certainly doesn't mean wanting fcuking Russian or state money into the club.

I love watching my club and although I pretty much give up that live right to allow my nephew to have the tickets and keep them in the family after 20+ years and I am lucky to be able to afford them comfortably, but I question if the price is value for money, if we woke up tomorrow and found out we were Real Madrid I question it, so its likely next season will be the last I pay.

Anyway it is what it is.....

It’s about how people view a football club.

Levy has done a lot of great things, but he’s a businessman. I don’t feel that he really places any importance on the club’s place within the lives of its supporters. To him, one bum on a seat is the same as another - in fact, if someone is there from overseas for one game they are likely to spend a lot more than the supporter who has been going for 40 years, so why not move to filling large parts of the stadium with cash cows?

We’ve (and I mean big teams in England generally - with the exception, perhaps, of Liverpool) lost sight of a club’s place within its supporters’ commmunity, largely as a result of the PL going global. Squeezing a few extra quid out of pensioners is, unfortunately, just part of that shift.

 

[Raziel]

Bloody good news though
It’s key for what we do next and can be a game changer with our set up

I think Levy has always understood self funded had a limit (been reports of him asking Lewis in past for additional investment).

The questions would be
- What would the model look like? e.g. 10-25% investment that goes to squad improvements but club structure remains the same (obviously give a board seat?)
- Could we get any kind of model done before summer window (if we got CL as well)
- Then the hard part, could Spurs ever get some luck? i.e. invest in a top player or two that work out (our expensive ones typically haven't), and could we get a season or two where other teams don't have a blinder of a season and we actually get over the line?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It’s about how people view a football club.

Levy has done a lot of great things, but he’s a businessman. I don’t feel that he really places any importance on the club’s place within the lives of its supporters. To him, one bum on a seat is the same as another - in fact, if someone is there from overseas for one game they are likely to spend a lot more than the supporter who has been going for 40 years, so why not move to filling large parts of the stadium with cash cows?

We’ve (and I mean big teams in England generally - with the exception, perhaps, of Liverpool) lost sight of a club’s place within its supporters’ commmunity, largely as a result of the PL going global. Squeezing a few extra quid out of pensioners is, unfortunately, just part of that shift.

Liverpool lost that sight of its community’s ages ago, don’t kid yourself on that front

The only clubs that IMO care about the community are the smaller ones as they can’t pick and choose their fans

I was with some out on fans on Saturday on the train home and they are being screwed (their words) by the club for away tickets now and aren’t happy. They have created some platinum system that means it’s corporate first and then another grade of ticket

 

[Grays_1890]

It’s about how people view a football club.

Levy has done a lot of great things, but he’s a businessman. I don’t feel that he really places any importance on the club’s place within the lives of its supporters. To him, one bum on a seat is the same as another - in fact, if someone is there from overseas for one game they are likely to spend a lot more than the supporter who has been going for 40 years, so why not move to filling large parts of the stadium with cash cows?

We’ve (and I mean big teams in England generally - with the exception, perhaps, of Liverpool) lost sight of a club’s place within its supporters’ commmunity, largely as a result of the PL going global. Squeezing a few extra quid out of pensioners is, unfortunately, just part of that shift.

Yeh and I get that from the business point of view and especially in todays football culture but there is IMO room for both, 40k STs is your bread and butter, loads of scope for profiteering (especially as they also get additional kick back from booking fees on other platforms).

The horse has bolted so despite my original post there is an element of screaming into the Abyss (Im not screaming BTW haha). But for a club that does so much good with local community and seemingly understanding what the area needs, they miss a massive mark here and one to be totally different to those most loyal to them.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I think Levy has always understood self funded had a limit (been reports of him asking Lewis in past for additional investment).

The questions would be
- What would the model look like? e.g. 10-25% investment that goes to squad improvements but club structure remains the same (obviously give a board seat?)
- Could we get any kind of model done before summer window (if we got CL as well)
- Then the hard part, could Spurs ever get some luck? i.e. invest in a top player or two that work out (our expensive ones typically haven't), and could we get a season or two where other teams don't have a blinder of a season and we actually get over the line?

Pass
We don’t know that of course but I think a combination of money for. Ow and money for later would help
I doubt any investment into the club wouldn’t include a provision for signings as that’s where the value may come
Otherwise your investing in bricks and mortar but ones that don’t appreciate

 

[Raziel]

Pass
We don’t know that of course but I think a combination of money for. Ow and money for later would help
I doubt any investment into the club wouldn’t include a provision for signings as that’s where the value may come
Otherwise your investing in bricks and mortar but ones that don’t appreciate

Clearly the club would know what they want the cash for, at this point it would seem obvious the need is squad

However, I'd take Spurs as a pretty good passive investment right now (as an external investor), very little concern that the club will do anything but appreciate in value in the next decade or so.

 

[Raziel]

Yeh and I get that from the business point of view and especially in todays football culture but there is IMO room for both, 40k STs is your bread and butter, loads of scope for profiteering (especially as they also get additional kick back from booking fees on other platforms).

The horse has bolted so despite my original post there is an element of screaming into the Abyss (Im not screaming BTW haha). But for a club that does so much good with local community and seemingly understanding what the area needs, they miss a massive mark here and one to be totally different to those most loyal to them.

So lets start with I agree, I just think the ask is extremely ambiguous at a point when the frog has already been boiled

- How would you identify the "right" fans to exempt from premium pricing models (local/UK/age/games attended?)
- How would you police it? (always some asshat that will get the cheap tickets and decide that's his retirement plan)
- Do you just freeze it at this point or do you actually roll back to a previous lower value?

There is something relatively unique to UK football in terms of the generations supporting a club that is threatened here that is probably worth protecting (and to your point the club thinking about). In terms of pragmatism (I'm very guilty of), I don't see a solution for top level clubs