ENIC

[billyiddo]

It's not hindsight for people who called it at the time.

 

[DubSpur]

My thoughts are that if the club is progressing on and off the field over a medium to long term period then the smaller day to day/year to year decisions that they get wrong are being outweighed by those they get right, how else do you progress unless you're getting more right than wrong? this pretty much sums up the era from takeover to stadium build and was generally my argument throughout those years at different points. Yes there were mistakes and poor decisions along the way but if you take a step back before taking two forward it's not an issue for me - Hoddle/Pleat brought about Arnesen & Jol, Ramos brought about Redknapp and then AVB & Sherwood brought about Pochettino - for me i don't see why we fixate on the wrong there when each time it was followed by an improvement beyond where we had been previously, each time breaking new ground as we rose up through the league and tbqh i think that's a fairly logical position to take.

The issue is now that we are on extended run of bad decisions/mistakes that have seen us take several steps back with no sign of us being able to correct the slide.

I could see the predicament with Pochettinos team needing investment to take the next step clashing with the stadium build, they got a pass from me on that - it's tough to navigate a stadium build. Sacking Poch for Mourinho, huge red flag and had me questioning them - Mourinho to Nuno to Conte further compounded that as it was just repeating the same mistake over and over, though there was some glimmer of hope with the Paratichi appointment and the level of investment in transfers - but ultimately it's been bad decision after bad decision stretching back 4 years or so now and is probably on paper their worse run of mistakes/big decisions not working out - we're regressing/plateauing for the first real extended run of time during their ownership - for people who fixate on the bad parts of the pre stadium era it's the final straw wheras for me (and i guess others who share my thinking) it's the first point I've really had to call them in to question.

Good and fair post.

I'd disagree that appointing Conte was a mistake (outside the football being boring to watch). The issues he faced in the last year couldn't have been predicted and if he hadn't had so many personal losses and his health issue I'm sure we'd be looking at a different season.

The good signs at the moment are the structures that are being put in place and more investment in the non-playing staff on the football side (scouts etc). Levy does need to get the DoF and manager appointments right and a starting point on that is a manager that plays football that we can all enjoy watching.

 

[tommysvr]

It's not hindsight for plenty of people who called it at the time.

Even if you did call it (well done and all that) you can surely at least see the logic in the decisions?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

My thoughts are that if the club is progressing on and off the field over a medium to long term period then the smaller day to day/year to year decisions that they get wrong are being outweighed by those they get right, how else do you progress unless you're getting more right than wrong? this pretty much sums up the era from takeover to stadium build and was generally my argument throughout those years at different points. Yes there were mistakes and poor decisions along the way but if you take a step back before taking two forward it's not an issue for me - Hoddle/Pleat brought about Arnesen & Jol, Ramos brought about Redknapp and then AVB & Sherwood brought about Pochettino - for me i don't see why we fixate on the wrong there when each time it was followed by an improvement beyond where we had been previously, each time breaking new ground as we rose up through the league and tbqh i think that's a fairly logical position to take.

The issue is now that we are on extended run of bad decisions/mistakes that have seen us take several steps back with no sign of us being able to correct the slide.

I could see the predicament with Pochettinos team needing investment to take the next step clashing with the stadium build, they got a pass from me on that - it's tough to navigate a stadium build. Sacking Poch for Mourinho, huge red flag and had me questioning them - Mourinho to Nuno to Conte further compounded that as it was just repeating the same mistake over and over, though there was some glimmer of hope with the Paratichi appointment and the level of investment in transfers - but ultimately it's been bad decision after bad decision stretching back 4 years or so now and is probably on paper their worse run of mistakes/big decisions not working out - we're regressing/plateauing for the first real extended run of time during their ownership - for people who fixate on the bad parts of the pre stadium era it's the final straw wheras for me (and i guess others who share my thinking) it's the first point I've really had to call them in to question.

Good post Billy.
I think since Poch, our strategy has been 'win now' probably brought about for three reasons
1.everyone saying we are mentally weak and needing a 'winner' in charge.
2. an imagined big club/big stadium attitude, so big name manager
3. The last cycles of Son/Kane to be milked before we tackle the transition away from them

It's clearly failed, and us as fans have had to stare at, in the most part, eye bleeding football in hope of the greater good.

Were the managers good enough, who knows? Were we good enough for them? Who cares? All we know is it's a period that gave us nothing, nothing relatable to Tottenham Hotspur.

There is some validity to the Kane/Son angle and as I said above (another post) I'm not going to question taking the opportunity to roll the dice with Conte
Overall though, think it was bad missteps by the board.
Pretending we are something we are not, losing our identity in the Jose and Conte whirlwind.

However we have averaged a 6th place finish in those 4 seasons...a slip from previous but probably par for our club staus. FWIW United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea all yo yo around with various 'slippage' seasons. It's how we respond now that's important. Can we package off the last 4 seasons as a failed direction and return to something more 'Spurs', with a structure and cleverness that sees us compete, and bridge the financial gaps that will probably always exist.

We are at the sharp end of the most competitive league in the world. Any new owner will face that challenge, a challenge that even the established (and moneyed) clubs struggle with from time to time.
We have bridged a gap so are now spoken of in the same breath as those clubs, but we are new to it. Poch has raised our expectations because he took us so close, so close that it annoys us because we didn't 'win' and annoys us we can't be that every year.

We aren't getting new owners, so we now hope for Poch 2.0, and hopefully as long as the football is a good watch, we can learn to soften. Football really shouldn't be on your daily cycle of negativity and misery.
.

 

[Lemonade Money]

I'm glad we're not getting Naglesmann, I'm sure he'd think that's a step down from Bayern, and would only be tempted by the money.
I'm glad we're not getting Pochettino, never go back, it's never as good as the first time.
Our three best managers under Enic have all been 'step up' appointments, who have come from lower league PL teams or Eredivisie.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Most of our managerial appointments have some kind of logic that could be argued. The failure rate however implies either that logic was flawed or the system in place to help them be successful post hiring isn't working.

As Ancelotti says 'ive been fired from all my jobs'.
Very few are successful and even fewer at clubs in our position.

 

[elltrev]

It's not hindsight for plenty of people who called it at the time.

Do you remember who you wanted instead of Nuno or Conte? (That's a genuine question, not trying to make a point!)

 

[billyiddo]

Even if you did call it (well done and all that) you can surely at least see the logic in the decisions?

I can see their thinking, however as pointed out the thinking was flawed/wrong - Levy backed the squad being good enough to compete when he appointed Mourinho rather than it needing an extensive rebuild- i get that thinking but it was wrong and that makes it a bad decision/mistake. Essentially same same with the Conte appointment.

 

[billyiddo]

Do you remember who you wanted instead of Nuno or Conte? (That's a genuine question, not trying to make a point!)

Potter i think - though i probably wanted Poch back if it was a possibility to prise him from PSG

 

[billyiddo]

Good post Billy.
I think since Poch, our strategy has been 'win now' probably brought about for three reasons
1.everyone saying we are mentally weak and needing a 'winner' in charge.
2. an imagined big club/big stadium attitude, so big name manager
3. The last cycles of Son/Kane to be milked before we tackle the transition away from them

It's clearly failed, and us as fans have had to stare at, in the most part, eye bleeding football in hope of the greater good.

Were the managers good enough, who knows? Were we good enough for them? Who cares? All we know is it's a period that gave us nothing, nothing relatable to Tottenham Hotspur.

There is some validity to the Kane/Son angle and as I said above (another post) I'm not going to question taking the opportunity to roll the dice with Conte
Overall though, think it was bad missteps by the board.
Pretending we are something we are not, losing our identity in the Jose and Conte whirlwind.

However we have averaged a 6th place finish in those 4 seasons...a slip from previous but probably par for our club staus. FWIW United, Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea all yo yo around with various 'slippage' seasons. It's how we respond now that's important. Can we package off the last 4 seasons as a failed direction and return to something more 'Spurs', with a structure and cleverness that sees us compete, and bridge the financial gaps that will probably always exist.

We are at the sharp end of the most competitive league in the world. Any new owner will face that challenge, a challenge that even the established (and moneyed) clubs struggle with from time to time.
We have bridged a gap so are now spoken of in the same breath as those clubs, but we are new to it. Poch has raised our expectations because he took us so close, so close that it annoys us because we didn't 'win' and annoys us we can't be that every year.

We aren't getting new owners, so we now hope for Poch 2.0, and hopefully as long as the football is a good watch, we can learn to soften. Football really shouldn't be on your daily cycle of negativity and misery.
.

Things can quickly change in football - we get the next managerial/DoF appointment right and we get back to the top 3 positions and challenging in europe again then all will be well and isn't actually that out of the question. However the last few years of seemingly making the same mistake over and over is making me question whether the powers that be understand what is required/what our club identity actually is

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I can see their thinking, however as pointed out the thinking was flawed/wrong - Levy backed the squad being good enough to compete when he appointed Mourinho rather than it needing an extensive rebuild- i get that thinking but it was wrong and that makes it a bad decision/mistake. Essentially same same with the Conte appointment.

That was partly because Jose spun 2 pieces of bull brick. 1.He liked and thought we had a good squad 2. That he himself had changed.

I think many of us were sceptical about him personally, ie he was a dinosaur and the end game was predictable. And that's how it turned out.

Ideally Conte would have been a spin at that idea straight after Poch but timings/availability probably would not of aligned?. (Plus Conte would have probably turned his nose up at that point). Once again, we all know how Conte would end, it's well signposted BUT you take that chance if offered.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Things can quickly change in football - we get the next managerial/DoF appointment right and we get back to the top 3 positions and challenging in europe again then all will be well and isn't actually that out of the question. However the last few years of seemingly making the same mistake over and over is making me question whether the powers that be understand what is required/what our club identity actually is

But those powers that be are trying to do something about that eg CFO DofF plus numerous other positions.

 

[billyiddo]

That was partly because Jose spun 2 pieces of bull brick. 1.He liked and thought we had a good squad 2. That he himself had changed.

I think many of us were sceptical about him personally, ie he was a dinosaur and the end game was predictable. And that's how it turned out.

Ideally Conte would have been a spin at that idea straight after Poch but timings/availability probably would not of aligned?. (Plus Conte would have probably turned his nose up at that point). Once again, we all know how Conte would end, it's well signposted BUT you take that chance if offered.

Agree with the bulk of that but absoloutely not with your conclusion - you should not roll the dice on something that has as many red flags as Tottenham in the midst of a rebuild appointing a fiery win now all you're all clams type of manager

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Things can quickly change in football - we get the next managerial/DoF appointment right and we get back to the top 3 positions and challenging in europe again then all will be well and isn't actually that out of the question. However the last few years of seemingly making the same mistake over and over is making me question whether the powers that be understand what is required/what our club identity actually is

We've been pretty terrible and averaged 6th.

Plus, do you think we are capable of making capital M 'Mistakes' ....ala Everton, West Ham, Leicester, Leeds?.

 

[billyiddo]

We've been pretty terrible and averaged 6th.

Plus, do you think we are capable of making capital M 'Mistakes' ....ala Everton, West Ham, Leicester, Leeds?.

Maybe you've misread me or i haven't explained well enough but i think we're essentially on the same page I'm just left lacking in confidence after the last few years - I'm not on the enic out bandwagon I'm just questioning the decision making since we left WHL, i can't defend the logic or the outcome.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Agree with the bulk of that but absoloutely not with your conclusion - you should not roll the dice on something that has as many red flags as Tottenham in the midst of a rebuild appointing a fiery win now all you're all clams type of manager

Let's say we replaced Nuno with eg Potter or Rodgers and it failed by now, and the rumour spread that at the time Conte was available to replace Nuno and we didn't go for it. Full meltdown?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We've been pretty terrible and averaged 6th.

Plus, do you think we are capable of making capital M 'Mistakes' ....ala Everton, West Ham, Leicester, Leeds?.

No chance of us dropping like them IMO

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Maybe you've misread me or i haven't explained well enough but i think we're essentially on the same page I'm just left lacking in confidence after the last few years - I'm not on the enic out bandwagon I'm just questioning the decision making since we left WHL, i can't defend the logic or the outcome.

That's fair enough and I don't think we are far apart. I was just asking to see how capable and to what extent you think ENIC are of getting it wrong.

 

[billyiddo]

Let's say we replaced Nuno with eg Potter or Rodgers and it failed by now, and the rumour spread that at the time Conte was available to replace Nuno and we didn't go for it. Full meltdown?

Personally i think there's a difference between an appointment not working out and one which didn't make sense - for me on paper Potter ticked all the boxes for what we needed wrt the job at hand, if for whatever reason it didn't work out I'd like to think i wouldn't be calling the decision to appoint an impressive project type manager in to question

 

[tommysvr]

I can see their thinking, however as pointed out the thinking was flawed/wrong - Levy backed the squad being good enough to compete when he appointed Mourinho rather than it needing an extensive rebuild- i get that thinking but it was wrong and that makes it a bad decision/mistake. Essentially same same with the Conte appointment.

Yes, but that’s decision making with hindsight. There is absolutely logic to the appointments. They’re not the decisions of some crazed chairman without a clue about football.