Emmanuel Adebayor - Officially gone \o/

[thfcsteff]

re Defoe & the NLD ...

you don't just chuck in a player on return from injury in a game like the NLD with zero match fitness - the idea is entirely absurd.

Absolutely. Plus this will be Ade's day...

 

[Pirate55]

I disagree, I think people are trying to rationalise Ade's poor form because frankly we don't have any other option or hope. We need him to play better because we left ourselves short of any other options.

Part of fuego's post is saying Ade played a part in Bale's first goal? Any striker from Sunday league to league 2 to the Premiership should be closing down defenders I don't know why that should be credited to contrbuting to the goal?

This seems a case of drinking a glass of water and if you keep telling yourself it's wine eventually you will come to believe it

Precicely. Fuego is a self admitted clockwatcher and timeserver. No wonder he loves and admires Ade! Takes one to know one.

 

[awesome dawson]

Ade is the only option at the moment, he has to play and will be easy to motivate for a game against his old club.

Defoe coming on with 25 minutes to go will do nicely.

If we're losing take off Parker if we're winning take off Ade or Holtby.

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

Defoe's form since December was far worse than Ade has been. Wasn't he on 1 in 10 before his latest injury? And Ade brings other stuff to the table like his mobility, hold and link-up play.

Our team play has looked better with Defoe than Ade. Ade doesn't seem to have gelled at all with the new boys, or AVB's system of play.

 

[Pirate55]

The one saving grace is that Holtby and even Siggy's recent performances means will be unlikely to have to endure both together again.

I still think Ade's the least worst option at the moment because at least we know he's capable of more.

Well put.

 

[metalgear]

Because we're winning in spite of him and could replace him with a striker who offers a goal threat.

Honestly, football forums do make me laugh sometimes. I have yet to meet a Spurs fan in real life either at the games or just in general that actually believes he is playing well at the moment and doesn't need to get his act together. I know people like a debate but I don't see how people can make a case that he's playing well.

i don't see bale scoring when defoe is playing well. so it makes me laugh to see that suddenly someone would think that football is as easy as just putting two players together and expect it to work. that's more like football manager...

 

[Jurgen the German]

i don't see bale scoring when defoe is playing well. so it makes me laugh to see that suddenly someone would think that football is as easy as just putting two players together and expect it to work. that's more like football manager...

Bale scored a hat trick against Villa whilst Defoe was playing. I don't give anyone credit for Bale's form except Bale himself and AVB. Don't see what Adebayor had to do with Bale smashing one in from 30 yards against West Ham.

I understand people wanting to get behind a Spurs player, just because I don't rate him doesn't mean I don't want him to succeed, but the excuses being made for him in this thread are ridiculous. Some of the ones I've seen recently:

The miss against QPR wasn't a bad miss, it was a great save. Yes it was a great save, but I expect a top 4 level striker to score from that distance.

The first goal on Monday was a result of Adebayor being a handful, I don't class making an attempt to go for the ball as being a handful. One poster even credited him with an assist despite him not touching the ball. Still don't know how you can get an assist without touching the ball.

He didn't celebrate the third goal on Monday, but he celebrated the other goals so its fine.

At least 4 players ran in the box in an attempt to follow up Bale's free kick against Lyon in the last minute, Ade just stood there.


I think a lot of this comes down to people rating Ade higher than Defoe. But sometimes you just have to admit when your favourite player isn't playing well. And for the record, I'm not a big Defoe fan either, but he's offered far more this season than Ade has.

 

[billyiddo]

for someone that 'wants him to succeed' you en 'alf make a lot of posts telling everyone how bad he has been/how little effort he has put in and how you don't think he is going to make a positive impact for the rest of the season mate

 

[tynesidespur]

No. Last season we were a possession side with a huge focus on passing the ball, keeping possession, recycling the ball and looking for the killer pass. When we played well, we hit several cross field passes each match, made opposition defences shuffle from side to side constantly and had King, Modric and VDV. King used to pass to wingers more than Parker did, he had this awesome pass from a typical CB position curling right into the path of the left winger and one fired to the right winger's feet. Modric speaks for himself and VDV was integral to our game too.

This season we're a totally different team, our style has changed and we don't play the typical possession football that possession football teams play. We don't have the possession of a possession team either, but we don't have Modric or VDV so we don't have the passing ability of a possession team either. We had a better passing midfield than Arsenal, even though Parker was part of our midfield.

Also, BAE has missed a lot of this season and he was important for us being a possession side.

This is an excellent point and one I've made on several occasions on here but has been denied by all and sundry. We kept possession better last season and the make-up of the team encouraged possession. This season there are games and periods in games when the ball is like a hot potato and we give it away unnecessarily. Its something I hope we improve on next season - perhaps another midfielder.

Great point about BAE also. We often worked possession at the back to allow him the final pass out into midfield - either up the line to Bale, into central midfield where we'd worked space or a longer ball over the top to a striker running wide or to VDV. Most moves last year resulted in the ball being moved towards BAE initially. When BAE has returned to the side this season I've noticed that we no longer take that approach.

 

[Jurgen the German]

for someone that 'wants him to succeed' you en 'alf make a lot of posts telling everyone how bad he has been/how little effort he has put in and how you don't think he is going to make a positive impact for the rest of the season mate

I don't want him to miss chances or to play badly. I manned up and admitted I was wrong about AVB, I'd do the same if Adebayor goes on to score say 8 goals in the last 11 games.

 

[Fuego]

Part of fuego's post is saying Ade played a part in Bale's first goal? Any striker from Sunday league to league 2 to the Premiership should be closing down defenders I don't know why that should be credited to contrbuting to the goal?

A very small part. The reason I said it was because there seems to be a lot of people saying despite Ade obviously contributing to the goal, he should get no credit for it. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Would we have scored the goal if Ade wasn't there? No.

You are another person seemingly claiming that anything simple, basic or expected should not count as contributing to a goal. This is madness.


Let's just go through what you've just said.

Any striker from Sunday league to league 2 to the Premiership should be closing down defenders

Really? So you're saying that if Barca play every Premier League team, they can all count on strikers pressing the Barca defenders?

You can see plenty of footballers that don't close down defenders, footballers that play in the top leagues. I have no clue about Sunday league as I never watch it and I only ever watch League 2 sides in cups against much better sides and in those games generally effort is all they have, they aren't going to outplay a PL side.

I don't know why that should be credited to contrbuting to the goal?

If a goal comes as a result of pressing/closing someone down, the person that won the ball, forced a mistake or whatever gets the credit. Lukaku scored a goal as a result of closing players, does the goal go down as an own goal?

That's the part that's confusing me. It may just be a strange choice of words everyone is going with. If someone hits an easy 5 yard pass to someone and they score, they get an assist. I'm capable of playing easy 5 yard passes as I assume most people on here are. The person who made the assist still gets credit, whether it was easy, basic or expected enough for me to be capable of doing... Or whether the assist is a beautiful 30 yard pass.

At what point does something become hard enough to deserve credit?

--------

The problem with the "does Ade deserve any credit whatsoever for our first goal" discussion is simply that I replied to someone saying they'd expect someone to close down a defender if they were 5 yards away and that post implied closing someone down 5 yards away wouldn't be enough to be considered contributing to a goal, which is something I disagree with. This has somehow warped into a "footballers of any level should be closing people down, that's too easy to deserve credit for contributing to a goal"...

We're talking about a hypothetical goal now. In my mind, it's very strange to not give credit if pressing/closing someone down leads to a goal. Real Madrid vs Barca and Bayern vs Arsenal both had goals (I think both were the first goal) that began with someone closing someone down and that player lost the ball.

The problem is Ade's goal wasn't related to Ade closing down, which is why this discussion seems to be going off on a tangent. The discussion there was "Ade shielding the ball with his back to goal, using his huge frame was being a handful, that led to the goal." This was to prove Ade could be a handful which was the debate at the time.

I feel that Tom Carroll in that position simply doesn't have the physical presence to shove his ass into a defender and force the error. So that's my first point, Ade did something not every footballer can do.

My second point is simply he forced an error. Whenever someone forces an error, they have influenced something. If they force an error that leads to a goal, they should be given credit for influencing a goal.


I don't think there are many people that feel Ade should get an assist for it... I just think it's a bit harsh to effectively say the goal had nothing to do with Ade. It wouldn't have happened if Ade wasn't there.

Precicely. Fuego is a self admitted clockwatcher and timeserver. No wonder he loves and admires Ade! Takes one to know one.

Lol, I wrote a decently sized post about Ade, that is the only thing you cared to reply to?

Firstly, it's not even about Ade, it seems to be a strange (but mild) attempt at a personal attack at me with a thinly veiled attempt at an insult towards both Ade and myself.

Secondly, "takes one to know one" is spectacularly childish. If it were true then you would have to be one too in order to know Ade is one?

Thirdly, you are trying to mock me for liking one of our players? You have a unique style of supporting your team if you dislike our players.

One poster even credited him with an assist despite him not touching the ball. Still don't know how you can get an assist without touching the ball.

I want to clarify now that I'm just answering this question, I'm not talking about Ade's goal because I'm not saying Ade should get an assist for that goal.

It's actually very common. Players win penalties and free kicks all the time without touching the ball, if they don't take their own penalty/free kick and a goal comes from it, they get an assist. It's why Hazard started the season with a ton of assists, he won a bunch of penalties early on. (He did touch the ball then. But I'm just saying, assists from winning penalties count.)

I'm fairly sure there are other ways to assist without touching the ball too.

That said, there are tons of ways to actually assist without touching the ball, but not being credited with the assist. For example if a player feigns to shoot and makes the GK dive but allows the ball to pass him to a team mate who then scores.

By contrast, Ramsey got an assist earlier in the season for the ball hitting him on the ass and bouncing up to Arteta who headed the ball against the bar and then headed in the rebound. That sort of lucky brick counts, so clever assists without touching the ball are unlucky not to count.

From a Spurs point of view, we saw Defoe make an excellent off the ball run earlier in the season which made a goal possible, he didn't get the assist, but he deserves it more than players that have the ball bounce off them despite them not having any idea about it.

But if Ramsey gets an assist for the ball bouncing off his ass, that's where I think it's very harsh not to give players any credit at all for contributing to a goal if they clearly have contributed. It's a fine line, but to go from the extreme of giving an actual assist for one and not even giving the other any sort of credit at all seems strange.

I think a lot of this comes down to people rating Ade higher than Defoe. But sometimes you just have to admit when your favourite player isn't playing well.

Almost everyone has said Ade has played poorly in certain games, it's not simply a case of refusing to admit when a player you like isn't playing well. We're at various stages of "Ade is getting better aside from looking like scoring" "Ade is playing ok without looking like scoring", etc. There is a section of people that feel Ade is playing awfully, but that section is the only one that doesn't seem to be taking up middle ground... Then there are people that just dislike Ade, trolls, Arsenal supporters, etc that are chipping in and joining in with the section of people that just think Ade is playing terribly. I think 95%+ of us agree Ade isn't in great goalscoring form. So from there the only discussion is about how everyone feels the rest of his game is.

Debating whether Defoe or Ade should start X game when both are fit is fine, but I don't think it comes down to people refusing to admit anything they truly believe about Ade purely because he is their favourite player. As for some of it coming down to people rating Ade higher than Defoe, a discussion about who should start if both are fit will definitely come down to that. A lot of people are saying that they rate an Ade that can't score higher than a Defoe that can't score, it's only natural that a person's rating of a player will come into who they feel should start a match.

If we had no strikers available to replace Ade or if we had Falcao and Messi on the bench, I don't think many people's appraisal of Ade's performance would change. I suspect many people would prefer Messi or Falcao to take Ade's place in the team though. (That said, on here Messi's performance vs Milan and Real Madrid may have been enough to see people wanting him replaced with Ronaldo in the summer.)

I don't want him to miss chances or to play badly. I manned up and admitted I was wrong about AVB, I'd do the same if Adebayor goes on to score say 8 goals in the last 11 games.

If he scored 8 goals in one game but didn't offer anything at all in the other 10, I don't think you'd be wrong. Actually, even if those goals were a little bit more spread out, I'm sure Ade couldn't get away with scoring goals but not doing anything else aside from taking pot shots at any opportunity.

----------------------


Anyway, before I got distracted by other posts I actually wanted to just post an image in here that sums up the role of Ade in a team designed for Bale.

This is a Mourinho drill, you can see the part where Benzema or Higuain use intelligent running to make space for Ronaldo. I'm not quite sure if my previous posts about intelligent running were that easy to understand and a picture is worth a thousand words, or so they say. *Shrug.*

When I talk about self sacrifice and so on, this is what I'm getting at. The Real Madrid striker is making a run towards the corner flag, it is not a run designed to put the striker in a goal scoring position, generally the striker makes that run to allow the ball to go directly to Ronaldo.

One of the points I keep making about Ade is that he's actually very good at making these types of runs. He will do them all the time for the team. That's why I strongly disagree with people saying he's stupid when it comes to movement. That's why I dislike people saying "anyone can run around a bit and occupy defenders by default".

(That particular picture comes from an Article called "The Evolution of Christano Ronaldo", I'm sure plenty of people have read it. Here is the link (http://www.haugstadfootball.net/2012/10/17/analysis-the-evolution-of-cristiano-ronaldo/) I've also put it in the http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/showthread.php?3876-ARTICLE-Bale-AVB-Formation-Why-he-should-stay thread as that seemed to be the best place to discuss a team shaped around Bale. But Ade is currently part of a team shaped around Bale, so part of it applies to him..)

 

[clevelandspur]

A very small part. The reason I said it was because there seems to be a lot of people saying despite Ade obviously contributing to the goal, he should get no credit for it. That makes no sense to me whatsoever. Would we have scored the goal if Ade wasn't there? No.

You are another person seemingly claiming that anything simple, basic or expected should not count as contributing to a goal. This is madness.


Let's just go through what you've just said.

Really? So you're saying that if Barca play every Premier League team, they can all count on strikers pressing the Barca defenders?

You can see plenty of footballers that don't close down defenders, footballers that play in the top leagues. I have no clue about Sunday league as I never watch it and I only ever watch League 2 sides in cups against much better sides and in those games generally effort is all they have, they aren't going to outplay a PL side.



If a goal comes as a result of pressing/closing someone down, the person that won the ball, forced a mistake or whatever gets the credit. Lukaku scored a goal as a result of closing players, does the goal go down as an own goal?

That's the part that's confusing me. It may just be a strange choice of words everyone is going with. If someone hits an easy 5 yard pass to someone and they score, they get an assist. I'm capable of playing easy 5 yard passes as I assume most people on here are. The person who made the assist still gets credit, whether it was easy, basic or expected enough for me to be capable of doing... Or whether the assist is a beautiful 30 yard pass.

At what point does something become hard enough to deserve credit?

--------

The problem with the "does Ade deserve any credit whatsoever for our first goal" discussion is simply that I replied to someone saying they'd expect someone to close down a defender if they were 5 yards away and that post implied closing someone down 5 yards away wouldn't be enough to be considered contributing to a goal, which is something I disagree with. This has somehow warped into a "footballers of any level should be closing people down, that's too easy to deserve credit for contributing to a goal"...

We're talking about a hypothetical goal now. In my mind, it's very strange to not give credit if pressing/closing someone down leads to a goal. Real Madrid vs Barca and Bayern vs Arsenal both had goals (I think both were the first goal) that began with someone closing someone down and that player lost the ball.

The problem is Ade's goal wasn't related to Ade closing down, which is why this discussion seems to be going off on a tangent. The discussion there was "Ade shielding the ball with his back to goal, using his huge frame was being a handful, that led to the goal." This was to prove Ade could be a handful which was the debate at the time.

I feel that Tom Carroll in that position simply doesn't have the physical presence to shove his ass into a defender and force the error. So that's my first point, Ade did something not every footballer can do.

My second point is simply he forced an error. Whenever someone forces an error, they have influenced something. If they force an error that leads to a goal, they should be given credit for influencing a goal.


I don't think there are many people that feel Ade should get an assist for it... I just think it's a bit harsh to effectively say the goal had nothing to do with Ade. It wouldn't have happened if Ade wasn't there.


.)

First, I appreciate reading your posts for one, you put a lot of time and effort in.

So to Ade, I think this has gotten a bit off course. I see your point that if he wasn't on the pitch and closing the defender down chances are the goal may not have came, however my point is MOST strikers would be doing the exact same thing. It isn't as if Ade did something extraordinary it was more of a case of West Ham defender (Collins I believe fudging up). More importantly the fact we are even having this conversation in itself shows what little Ade is actually giving us at the moment.

We shouldn't be talking about Ade making necesarry runs and closing down defenders to validate he is coming into decent form we should be talking about him finishing things off, or providing the vital flick on, through ball etc..

Ade was exceptional for us last year and I was ecstatic we made the deal permanent but I just don't have enough rose tint in my glasses to say he has had anything but a nightmare of a season. I am not just talking about his goal production either but personally think his overall play has been pretty poor. Some games he doesn't seem bothered at all and also has gotten into the habit (broken somewhat recently) of every time he got the ball he would take it on a walk about back wide to the half way line. It was/is frustratint to watch that imo is not good hold up play the defenders are glad to usher you there out of danger.

In closing, I am well aware if we want to finish in the top 4 we will need Ade and nobody is pulling for him more than me but some peoples views about his performances so far this season in this thread are madness

 

[NaijaSpurs]

I disagree, I think people are trying to rationalise Ade's poor form because frankly we don't have any other option or hope. We need him to play better because we left ourselves short of any other options.

Part of fuego's post is saying Ade played a part in Bale's first goal? Any striker from Sunday league to league 2 to the Premiership should be closing down defenders I don't know why that should be credited to contrbuting to the goal?

This seems a case of drinking a glass of water and if you keep telling yourself it's wine eventually you will come to believe it

=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>=D>

 

[NaijaSpurs]

Defoe's form since December was far worse than Ade has been. Wasn't he on 1 in 10 before his latest injury? And Ade brings other stuff to the table like his mobility, hold and link-up play.

And therein lies the rub, because Ade has not been very mobile, and his hold up and link play has been non existent

 

[NaijaSpurs]

I don't think that's part of any equation right now mate. He's here. We're here. He's working hard (IMO). He needs a goal. He's dropping off/working hard to allow others to profit from their prodigious talent. Let's see what happens in the summer. As a betting man, I'd say if AVB gets what he wants it might bot be a question you have to ask...

Actually I do not think he has been working hard. And running around like a headless chicken does not impress me. And no he ain't dropping off and working hard allowing others to profit, instead we have been getting crucial results in spite of Ade and not because of him.

How many goals have we scored in 2013 due to his amazing hold up/assists?

 

[Pirate55]

First, I appreciate reading your posts for one, you put a lot of time and effort in.

So to Ade, I think this has gotten a bit off course. I see your point that if he wasn't on the pitch and closing the defender down chances are the goal may not have came, however my point is MOST strikers would be doing the exact same thing. It isn't as if Ade did something extraordinary it was more of a case of West Ham defender (Collins I believe fudging up). More importantly the fact we are even having this conversation in itself shows what little Ade is actually giving us at the moment.

We shouldn't be talking about Ade making necesarry runs and closing down defenders to validate he is coming into decent form we should be talking about him finishing things off, or providing the vital flick on, through ball etc..

Ade was exceptional for us last year and I was ecstatic we made the deal permanent but I just don't have enough rose tint in my glasses to say he has had anything but a nightmare of a season. I am not just talking about his goal production either but personally think his overall play has been pretty poor. Some games he doesn't seem bothered at all and also has gotten into the habit (broken somewhat recently) of every time he got the ball he would take it on a walk about back wide to the half way line. It was/is frustratint to watch that imo is not good hold up play the defenders are glad to usher you there out of danger.

In closing, I am well aware if we want to finish in the top 4 we will need Ade and nobody is pulling for him more than me but some peoples views about his performances so far this season in this thread are madness

I absolutely agree with you Cleveland. Some people have more than rose tinted on when it comes to Ade.

To deal with Fuego specifically, but Onlyme and to some extent Steff (although he is a bit more balanced albeit also hoping against hope for some glimmer of the former Ade) how he can begin to deny Ade has shortchanged us this season beggars belief in my opinion.

Is he good value for money? He was only recently a £25m striker. We are paying him something between 80 and 100k per week. Our return - just 2 goals in the PL and ZER0 assists. On top of those facts he has also shortchanged us by:

1. Frigging about getting a loyalty bonus from City so he unprofessionally didnt keep himself fit so wasted an entire pre-season
2. Got a series of mysterious injuries funnily enough coinciding with games he may not have wanted to play in
3. Stupidly got himself sent off against the Arse and then was suspended for three games
4. Changed his mind and left us in the lurch to go to the ANC
5. Was tardy in his return to the club after the ANC
6. Falsely blamed AVB for trying to stop him going to the ANC in the first place


When he has deigned to play for us:

1. His performances have been dire - two goals, no assists, lousy hold up, pathetic pressing, jumping under the ball from headers, lazily getting himself needlessly offside, missing open goals that 'arry's wife could score, doesnt follow up shots etc etc

We all want him to come good. But no-one surely can reasonably deny that he has not performed for us this season.

 

[DubaiSpur]

I absolutely agree with you Cleveland. Some people have more than rose tinted on when it comes to Ade.

To deal with Fuego specifically, but Onlyme and to some extent Steff (although he is a bit more balanced albeit also hoping against hope for some glimmer of the former Ade) how he can begin to deny Ade has shortchanged us this season beggars belief in my opinion.

Is he good value for money? He was only recently a £25m striker. We are paying him something between 80 and 100k per week. Our return - just 2 goals in the PL and ZER0 assists. On top of those facts he has also shortchanged us by:

1. Frigging about getting a loyalty bonus from City so he unprofessionally didnt keep himself fit so wasted an entire pre-season
2. Got a series of mysterious injuries funnily enough coinciding with games he may not have wanted to play in
3. Stupidly got himself sent off against the Arse and then was suspended for three games
4. Changed his mind and left us in the lurch to go to the ANC
5. Was tardy in his return to the club after the ANC
6. Falsely blamed AVB for trying to stop him going to the ANC in the first place


When he has deigned to play for us:

1. His performances have been dire - two goals, no assists, lousy hold up, pathetic pressing, jumping under the ball from headers, lazily getting himself needlessly offside, missing open goals that 'arry's wife could score, doesnt follow up shots etc etc

We all want him to come good. But no-one surely can reasonably deny that he has not performed for us this season.

He hasn't. And you make good points. But most of those can be rectified next season, can they not? Let's assume, for the sake of the argument, that he knocks in a couple off his arse to clinch CL football and then ends the season with four or five goals. Still terrible, but you can't have everything.

However, with a full pre-season with AVB and the lads, a CL campaign to look forward to, no ANC to distract him, and a fresh start in 2013-2014, is it not reasonable to expect him to deliver?

He hasn't succeeded so far. That much is true. But we as a club cannot afford to dump him after one unsuccessful season. We're not that wealthy, or disposed towards waste. He is, for all intents and purposes, our Fernando Torres. So we have to persevere with him.

And thus you see fans making the best of a bad lot: because they know this.

 

[thfcsteff]

I absolutely agree with you Cleveland. Some people have more than rose tinted on when it comes to Ade.

To deal with Fuego specifically, but Onlyme and to some extent Steff (although he is a bit more balanced albeit also hoping against hope for some glimmer of the former Ade) how he can begin to deny Ade has shortchanged us this season beggars belief in my opinion.

Is he good value for money? He was only recently a £25m striker. We are paying him something between 80 and 100k per week. Our return - just 2 goals in the PL and ZER0 assists. On top of those facts he has also shortchanged us by:

1. Frigging about getting a loyalty bonus from City so he unprofessionally didnt keep himself fit so wasted an entire pre-season
2. Got a series of mysterious injuries funnily enough coinciding with games he may not have wanted to play in
3. Stupidly got himself sent off against the Arse and then was suspended for three games
4. Changed his mind and left us in the lurch to go to the ANC
5. Was tardy in his return to the club after the ANC
6. Falsely blamed AVB for trying to stop him going to the ANC in the first place


When he has deigned to play for us:

1. His performances have been dire - two goals, no assists, lousy hold up, pathetic pressing, jumping under the ball from headers, lazily getting himself needlessly offside, missing open goals that 'arry's wife could score, doesnt follow up shots etc etc

We all want him to come good. But no-one surely can reasonably deny that he has not performed for us this season.

I firmly believe that they key to answering that question with complete accountability comes in the context of his use. Last season he was the out-and-out striker. This season he has increasingly been switching up with Bale (and even Defoe in that regard) and drifting into wide positions a lot more. Again, some of his misses have been inexcusable (the one on Monday was madness) but I maintain that AVB is getting more out of a confidence-knocked, discontented Ade than any other manager has from the same player. BTW, I can tell you mate that your point 1 is simply not the whole story, if indeed even part of it. There was a lot more to the whole thing. What IS unforgivable in that regard is that he did not maintain some fitness during pre-season.

Again, it's becoming a B&W argument sadly, when I think context is king.

 

[thfcsteff]

Actually I do not think he has been working hard. And running around like a headless chicken does not impress me. And no he ain't dropping off and working hard allowing others to profit, instead we have been getting crucial results in spite of Ade and not because of him.

How many goals have we scored in 2013 due to his amazing hold up/assists?

I honestly don't have the time right now to go through goal-by-goal, but trust me, those extra couple of yards outside the box (in what I call the 'soft' zone where there are always great opportunities if players can fashion them through dragging others around, etc) don't appear by magic. Again, it's becoming a polarizer again, suffice to say that our manager sees some value in him, otherwise he wouldn't be out there.

 

[thfcsteff]

Precicely. Fuego is a self admitted clockwatcher and timeserver. No wonder he loves and admires Ade! Takes one to know one.

Out of interest, why is it of such amazing importance that you 'win' this argument and disdain the opinions of Fuego? People see very different things. I've only managed to attend a handful of matches live home and away this season thanks to geography, but I have seen the rest live via telly/feeds, etc. And it is a VERY different game on-screen. My mate, who I go to matches with when home, goes home and away. He says (and I agree) that the hardcore away support is always a good barometer of things, and that save the odd abusive teenage taco, the general conscensus is that whilst we ALL want him to put away the chances he gets and find his shooting boots, Ade's been working very hard especially since the ANC. You see something different. Stop! Hammer time and Fuego's entitled to his without personal sniping.