Cycling thread

[jts1882]

You wanna think about that again sunshine and not mug yourself?

I obviously meant twice a week? So do you seriously think he is tested twice week?

 

[Leeds Spur]

I've just explained the rationale above.

He is tested after every match, so more than twice a week when he's in a tournament.

 

[jts1882]

I've just explained the rationale above.

He is tested after every match, so more than twice a week when he's in a tournament.

Not according to the ITF: http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/statistics.asp

Totals tests in 2010 (all players):

Urine tests: 1706, 988 male, 718 female
Blood tests: 140, 72 male, 68 female (slams only)
Out-of-competetion (urine): 219, 117 male, 102 female
Out-of-competetion (blood): 10, 6 male, 4 female

Andy Murray

2009: 9 urine tests (2 out of competition), 2 blood tests (Paris, Wimbledon), 0 EPO tests
2010: 7+ in competition, 1-3 out of competition
2011: 7+ in competition

Now obviously 7+ could mean a lot more, but if Murray had 100 tests in 2010 he had 8% of the total tests on males.

Tennis, like football, has been reluctant to bring in drug testing and only signed up to the WADA code in 2009. Their testing regime is minimal compared to some sports (athletics, swimming, etc). I knew it was poor, but I'm surprised by those figures from the ITF.

 

[Leeds Spur]

He is tested WAY WAY WAY more than than, he's mentioned it in interviews loads.....those will be basic info to protect privacy.

And those figures are 2 years old.....they are tested after matches.

Your attempted slander is very small.

 

[jts1882]

He is tested WAY WAY WAY more than than, he's mentioned it in interviews loads.....those will be basic info to protect privacy.

And those figures are 2 years old.....they are tested after matches.

Your attempted slander is very small.

So the ITF put out false information on drug testing? 2011 is the last complete year and certainly less than two years ago.

Not sure who I am slandering as I haven't accused anyone of anything.

 

[Leeds Spur]

Those figures are just teh ITF figures.

They don;t count the BOA and LTA figures, plus the tests that each tournament takes.

I don't doubt that tennis has drug cheats, but to say it's on a par with cycling is flat wrong

 

[jts1882]

Those figures are just teh ITF figures.

They don;t count the BOA and LTA figures, plus the tests that each tournament takes.

I don't doubt that tennis has drug cheats, but to say it's on a par with cycling is flat wrong

If you look through the links in the ITF source I gave, you will see that the list gives the number of tests for each tournament. It includes ITF and WADA tests. I doubt the BOA or LTA do their own tests. There might be a few extra out-of-competition test by the UK Anti-Doping agency (UKAD) but they won't test at the competitions or follow the players around the world. If you read the ITF document on testing you'll see they don't even test in every tournament and its up to the ITF to choose the ones they test at. They only test blood samples at the grand slam events, not at the ATP or lesser event, and only do around 20 total out-of-competition blood tests. This doesn't seem consistent with your assertion that tennis players are tested after every match.

As for straw man argument, no one has said that tennis is on a par with cycling, merely that tennis is not particularly rigorous in drug testing and was reluctant to participate in the full WADA programme for many years.

 

[Dicko]

There's definately something fishy with the ITF statistics. I just found this...

Todd Woodbridge
Todd Woodbridge on why a Lance Armstrong situation is unlikely to arise in tennis...

“If that happened in tennis, it would be a disaster as well, because so many people think so much of what that person does, but [in the end] they haven’t done it in their own right.

“In my last year of playing [2005] I had 14 urine tests and five blood tests, so every three-and-a-half weeks I was being tested – I was getting tested every week I played, and some out of competition tests as well.

“I think tennis for a long time now has been at the forefront of testing and keeping on top of it as much as possible by comparison to other sports. It’s been diligent in the way that it tests top players and in its education [of players] … I guess the Armstrong case is an example that nothing’s perfect. But tennis is pretty good.”

Update #1: I took the liberty of checking Woodbridge's testing statistics. In 2005, according to the ITF, he received 3 urine tests and zero blood tests. In 2004, he received 7 urine tests and 2 blood tests.

So, what is he talking about? I'd like to see him clarify the matter.

Update #2: I went back to the ITF's 2003 statistics. In 2003, Woodbridge had 13 urine tests, and 4 blood tests. So, perhaps Woodbridge misremembered his "last" year on the tour.

 

[Dicko]

I was under the impression Tennis players were tested a lot too..

Just found this dodgy website which is basically all about how they think Tennis has a drugs problem.. Note i'm not saying this is anywhere near reliable but it's quite interesting how this player, Beth Mattek tweets that players get tested week in week out and then they show ITF statistics below saying she had zero out of competion tests in either 2010 or 2011!?

I know this is a flimflam website but there must be some testing other than ITF going on?

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.be/2012/10/what-can-you-say.html


Also with regards to things like doping, it's unlikely Tennis would be the best sport for it.
In a five hour match for example, the ball might be in play for 35 minutes

I think steroid/growth hormone drugs are more likely.

 

[Leeds Spur]

That guy is a lone nutter with an axe to grind. I'm not even going to entertain his hysterical gonad*s

 

[Leeds Spur]

Murray, Matek and others confirm they are tested weekly!!!

 

[Leeds Spur]

I was under the impression Tennis players were tested a lot too..

Just found this dodgy website which is basically all about how they think Tennis has a drugs problem.. Note i'm not saying this is anywhere near reliable but it's quite interesting how this player, Beth Mattek tweets that players get tested week in week out and then they show ITF statistics below saying she had zero out of competion tests in either 2010 or 2011!?

I know this is a flimflam website but there must be some testing other than ITF going on?

http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.be/2012/10/what-can-you-say.html


Also with regards to things like doping, it's unlikely Tennis would be the best sport for it.
In a five hour match for example, the ball might be in play for 35 minutes

I think steroid/growth hormone drugs are more likely.

Tennis players are lean with low body fat. Bulking up is the opposite of what they want to do.

 

[Dicko]

There's prob a quote from every pro saying how clean the sport is to go with every other below but it's def not a clean sport..

John McEnroe: "You can tell when someone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took."

Jim Courier: "EPO is the problem, I have pretty strong suspicions that guys are using it on the tour. I see guys who are out there week in and week out without taking rests. EPO can help you when it's the fifth set and you've been playing for four-and-a-half hours."

Christophe Rochus: "There's a lot of cheating. Simply, people don't like to talk about it...I simply would like to stop the pretending. This hypocrisy is exasperating."

Nathalie Tauziat: "I won't name individuals, but it's clear that doping exists in tennis and needs to be stopped...I have no hard evidence, but all I will say is that you don't have to have a degree in medicine to see that some of the players have transformed themselves almost overnight..."

James Blake: "In tennis, I think, I'm sure there are guys who are doing it, getting away with it and getting ahead of the testers."

 

[jts1882]

There's definately something fishy with the ITF statistics. I just found this...

Todd Woodbridge
Todd Woodbridge on why a Lance Armstrong situation is unlikely to arise in tennis...

“If that happened in tennis, it would be a disaster as well, because so many people think so much of what that person does, but [in the end] they haven’t done it in their own right.

“In my last year of playing [2005] I had 14 urine tests and five blood tests, so every three-and-a-half weeks I was being tested – I was getting tested every week I played, and some out of competition tests as well.

“I think tennis for a long time now has been at the forefront of testing and keeping on top of it as much as possible by comparison to other sports. It’s been diligent in the way that it tests top players and in its education [of players] … I guess the Armstrong case is an example that nothing’s perfect. But tennis is pretty good.”

Update #1: I took the liberty of checking Woodbridge's testing statistics. In 2005, according to the ITF, he received 3 urine tests and zero blood tests. In 2004, he received 7 urine tests and 2 blood tests.

So, what is he talking about? I'd like to see him clarify the matter.

Update #2: I went back to the ITF's 2003 statistics. In 2003, Woodbridge had 13 urine tests, and 4 blood tests. So, perhaps Woodbridge misremembered his "last" year on the tour.

Armstong claimed he was tested over 500 times while the USADA report listed only just over 200. I suppose one needle feels just like another.

What Woodbridge says seems to fit with the frequency on the ITF site. As you point out he probably got the year wrong or meant the last year he played full-time or something. I suspect its natural for a player/athlete to overestimate the number of test and feel its intrusive and frequent.

The other notable thing about the tennis numbers is that there are very few blood tests, only 20 a year outside slams. I'd say a player could go on a drug programme outside the slams quite easily, citing injury or interest in say clothing design as a reason for missing the tour events, and turn up to the slams clean enough to pass the tests. And if they don't pass the tests the do on themselves they skip the slam. The risk of being caught with out-of-competition tests would be small.

P.S. On you question in another post, there is some testing by the national drug testing agencies, but I think they focus on national athletes and leave most of the testing on the international athletes to the international agencies. In a sport like tennis it would be hard (and expensive) to follow a player around the world to conduct tests. And sporting agencies in some countries are a lot more forgiving of athletes than in others (e.g. tainted meat, having sex five times the night before, etc).

P.S. I can find you a quote from Indurain saying Armstrong is clean .... from the last few days.

 

[Dicko]

Murray, Matek and others confirm they are tested weekly!!!

Yet they show that Murray had 0 tests out of competition tests in 2010, neither did the Williams sisters?? WTF!

I love Tennis and doubt it has any major issues with drugs, but I think it's behind other sports in catching that ones that are.

 

[Dicko]

Anyway next years TDF route was announced today. Hilly as expected and shorter Time Trials. Won't help Sky.

Also the finish in Paris will be in the evening under lights!!

 

[Leeds Spur]

There's prob a quote from every pro saying how clean the sport is to go with every other below but it's def not a clean sport..

John McEnroe: "You can tell when someone has been on steroids… A guy bulks up, has a new body and never gets tired...You see these guys or girls who come onto the tour talking about their new training programs and their diets where they eat this or that new thing…but they’ll never tell you about the drugs they took."

Jim Courier: "EPO is the problem, I have pretty strong suspicions that guys are using it on the tour. I see guys who are out there week in and week out without taking rests. EPO can help you when it's the fifth set and you've been playing for four-and-a-half hours."

Christophe Rochus: "There's a lot of cheating. Simply, people don't like to talk about it...I simply would like to stop the pretending. This hypocrisy is exasperating."

Nathalie Tauziat: "I won't name individuals, but it's clear that doping exists in tennis and needs to be stopped...I have no hard evidence, but all I will say is that you don't have to have a degree in medicine to see that some of the players have transformed themselves almost overnight..."

James Blake: "In tennis, I think, I'm sure there are guys who are doing it, getting away with it and getting ahead of the testers."

I agree that people are cheating, but I don;t think its's sactioned by teh ATP and the conspire to let the cheaters prosper.

Cycling is 100% about athletic endurance, tennish isn't. Federer is the greatest because he's an artist on teh court, look at him as well.....skinny little arms!!!

Let's get Mo Farah playing tennis shall we? I'm sure he could win Wimbledon next year!

 

[Leeds Spur]

Yet they show that Murray had 0 tests out of competition tests in 2010, neither did the Williams sisters?? WTF!

I love Tennis and doubt it has any major issues with drugs, but I think it's behind other sports in catching that ones that are.

So Murray is lying about being tested then?

Those stats are way way off and they only represent the ITF programme.

 

[Modric THFC]

Nothing worse than seeing an athlete complaining about being drug tested out of competition.
I personally I doubt Murray is on EPO. He has always had trouble lasting 5 sets with the endurance guys.

But what Murray generally is complaining about and he's done it on numerous occasions is having to do a test after a game.
He probably right in a way as you'd have to be pretty dumb to fail an in competition test.

There's the exact same whispers around Nadal for the last decade that were around Lance.
When you have tennis players going to the same dope doctors that cyclists use you have to ask questions.
When you see the lack of out of competition blood tests in Tennis you just have to shake your head.

And yes all the figures reported in the itf stats are the full figures.
http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/about/

"
Since 2006, the ITF has managed, administered and enforced the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme on behalf of the ATP, and on behalf of the WTA since 2007.

An out-of-competition testing programme has been conducted under the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme since 2005. This programme has been fully WADA Code-compliant since out-of-competition testing became mandatory in 2009. Players subject to this programme provide daily whereabouts information in order to permit effective no-notice out-of-competition testing. "

 

[Leeds Spur]

Well Murray struggled when he was young, not now he's 25......he won the US Open is a 5 hour match and outlasted Djokovic.

His 5 set record is superb.