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Coronavirus

LutonSpurs said:
I just want to qualify that I believe early lockdown would have made sense and the government is complicit in an absolute travesty.
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The SAGE minutes seem to indicate that their advice to the government was not to lockdown early. So the government seem to have gone along with the expert advice in that instance.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Is old Billy still alive?
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Yeah. See him pootling around Dorset quite often.

“I was a miner,
I was a docker,
I helped build Billy Bragg’s massive house between the wars...’

Diamond Lights said:
So Coronavirus question...

New Zealand is Corona free. All sport going to reopen, imagine that, back at the stadiums. Boozers? Open. Shops? Open.

Why couldn't we do the same? Why couldn't we do a proper full on lockdown, kill off the virus entirly, lock down the country, and then bounce back like NZ?
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Vietnam - 322 cases, no deaths.

Diamond Lights said:
Both of you entirely nailed it there.

This government has done a terrible job handling the pandemic. You can be a Tory, but are you blind? Like, I would happily criticise Spurs even though I'm a Spurs fan. Doesn't make me less of a fan, but this Govt has been awful, why can't Tory fan boys call them out? Hell even Piers Morgan is doing it, so why can't you?

Second of all, certain people seem to like to to think we have a free impartial press. We dont. The biggest selling papers are Sun and Mail (right wing), Levenson 2 was canned by the right wing government because it didn't suit their right wing press buddies.

A secretary of state (Gove) interviewed Trump WITH MURDOCH IN THE fudging ROOM. Even Theresa May danced to his tune (see here). And let's be clear here, this is a Tory Party issue now, it was a Labour one back under Blair. He's godfather to a Murdoch child for fudges sake.

Until you solve the complicity between media barons and the people in power, you'll never solve anything, and that's why Levenson 2 was scrapped.
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Absolutely bang on. Back to Billy Bragg; he was singing (well, sort of singing) about the issue of the British press 30+ years ago on ‘It Says Here.’
 
Diamond Lights said:
Not entirely the same (not saying things of the same nature aren't done by the Guardian), but they didn't have the full details and hence did not publish. They did not purposely withhold the information to release at a given point of time to assist the government like the Prof Ferguson affair was done. The Telegraph released the story at a specific time to distract from what would have been a major news story, that we breached the 20k death figure.
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It's a free press (which is a good thing), there was no obligation for other papers and media outlets to report on it as the leading story. In fact the Guardian themselves ran it as their main story for quite a while, they should have included the death statistics as their leading story as could any other news outlet but they chose not too.

The Telegraph doesn't have a major reach in terms of readership and has had plenty of columns critical of the governments handling (as have other generally pro Tory papers), I think you're looking for a conspiracy theory where just maybe there might not be one, and if there is then you've just admitted that the Guardian (and probably every other media outlet in the history of time) do the same thing.

Ultimately news stories are generally driven by what media outlets think their readers want to know about, if it becomes the leading story of the day then it's because the majority of media outlets believe that's what people want to hear about hence why the Cummings story was front page for a few days.
 
P.D. said:
It's a free press (which is a good thing), there was no obligation for other papers and media outlets to report on it as the leading story. In fact the Guardian themselves ran it as their main story for quite a while, they should have included the death statistics as their leading story as could any other news outlet but they chose not too.

The Telegraph doesn't have a major reach in terms of readership and has had plenty of columns critical of the governments handling (as have other generally pro Tory papers), I think you're looking for a conspiracy theory where just maybe there might not be one, and if there is then you've just admitted that the Guardian (and probably every other media outlet in the history of time) do the same thing.

Ultimately news stories are generally driven by what media outlets think their readers want to know about, if it becomes the leading story of the day then it's because the majority of media outlets believe that's what people want to hear about hence why the Cummings story was front page for a few days.
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UK ranks 35th on Press Freedom Index (not top 1%, 5%, not even 15%) but that's probably a conspiracy theory too...
 
Diamond Lights said:
I can't remember what it was, whether we had the highest death toll or breached that 20K number (think it was the 20k), the Telegraph (right wing Tory paper) broke the news on Prof Ferguson's breach of the rules. They had the story from 3 weeks before, but chose THAT day to break it. They sat on it, and waited, for the appropriate time to release and what's front page after that, Prof Ferguson's sex life. Not the death toll numbers. Same with Sun, Mail, Times etc...

And then the Sheep of the nation read that, follow those websites, get their news from there, not realising the news is skewed to suit it's party allegiances (and again, this isn't specific to Tories as Guardian obvs left wing/Labour), but the most prominent news outlets in UK are all right wing and will shovel brick into the mouths of its readers that suit it's party allegiances.
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i really do find it hard to believe people read papers......for so many reasons.
 
Diamond Lights said:
Not entirely the same (not saying things of the same nature aren't done by the Guardian), but they didn't have the full details and hence did not publish. They did not purposely withhold the information to release at a given point of time to assist the government like the Prof Ferguson affair was done. The Telegraph released the story at a specific time to distract from what would have been a major news story, that we breached the 20k death figure.
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Wonder what distraction tricks they've got planned for the big 50k when it arrives.
 
Diamond Lights said:
UK ranks 35th on Press Freedom Index (not top 1%, 5%, not even 15%) but that's probably a conspiracy theory too...
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I don't even know what that's meant to mean, what rank is this? And what about the rest of my comments?

Diamond Lights said:
Funnily enough it's not just physical print these places reach too... they do know how social media works.

Here's the Telegraph telling you not to worry about the COVID deaths because guess what, they were going to die anyway.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271113764113448960
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And again what's wrong with this, you don't have to read it. They aren't hiding behind an anonymous source and he's qualified to give such an opinion although his wikipedia does seem to indicate what I'd call dubious views.

What it sounds like going by your posts is you feel that the public aren't intelligent enough to look behind the news and discern fact or fiction and make up their own opinion. All (bar some obvious extremities) people should be able to put forward an opinion and it should be debated and if deemed stupid can be ridiculed for what it is. Instead what's your alternative solution because if that's what you feel then really it's a form of intellectual snobbery.
 
P.D. said:
I don't even know what that's meant to mean, what rank is this? And what about the rest of my comments?



And again what's wrong with this, you don't have to read it. They aren't hiding behind an anonymous source and he's qualified to give such an opinion although his wikipedia does seem to indicate what I'd call dubious views. :rolleyes:

What it sounds like going by your posts is you feel that the public aren't intelligent enough to look behind the news and discern fact or fiction and make up their own opinion. All (bar some obvious extremities) people should be able to put forward an opinion and it should be debated and if deemed stupid can be ridiculed for what it is. Instead what's your alternative solution because if that's what you feel then really it's a form of intellectual snobbery.
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not sure where to begin with this. I mean, 2 weeks ago we were told it was completely right to drive 30 mins to a tourist spot with a 4 year old in the car to test our eyesight during a global pandemic.

No one is saying people should not put forward an opinion, but if evidence is put forward that proves your opinion is factually incorrect for example, unfortunately people just double down rather than going "oh, ok i'll read this and consider it".

And this ties back to the topic, the government has done an awful job of handling this crisis, one of the worst in the world. This is not a right wing govt issue as I already pointed out, Germany, Austria, Netherlands are all centre right governments who have done 1000x times better at handling this crisis. Yet people are still celebrating Boris for doing a job well done, how can people discern the facts and come to that conclusion? unless they're not reading the facts?
 
Diamond Lights said:
not sure where to begin with this. I mean, 2 weeks ago we were told it was completely right to drive 30 mins to a tourist spot with a 4 year old in the car to test our eyesight during a global pandemic.

No one is saying people should not put forward an opinion, but if evidence is put forward that proves your opinion is factually incorrect for example, unfortunately people just double down rather than going "oh, ok i'll read this and consider it".

And this ties back to the topic, the government has done an awful job of handling this crisis, one of the worst in the world. This is not a right wing govt issue as I already pointed out, Germany, Austria, Netherlands are all centre right governments who have done 1000x times better at handling this crisis. Yet people are still celebrating Boris for doing a job well done, how can people discern the facts and come to that conclusion? unless they're not reading the facts?
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But is that the fault of the media or the individuals reading it? There is a variety of opinion in science so a lot of it isn't always simply a fact, there are some scientists (not many I agree) who feel lockdown should end faster. See this article (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ho-wants-lockdown-lifted-faster-sunetra-gupta) - the person is evidently highly qualified so why should they disagree with it unless people should only go with the consensus opinion.

Again you seem to believe people can't think for themselves, every single media outlet including the mail and telegraph have published articles slamming the government for how they're handling things, no one is celebrating Boris from what I can but many are taking a measured approach. I'm somewhere inbetween but don't feel he's done a good job overall.
 
P.D. said:
I don't even know what that's meant to mean, what rank is this? And what about the rest of my comments?



And again what's wrong with this, you don't have to read it. They aren't hiding behind an anonymous source and he's qualified to give such an opinion although his wikipedia does seem to indicate what I'd call dubious views.

What it sounds like going by your posts is you feel that the public aren't intelligent enough to look behind the news and discern fact or fiction and make up their own opinion. All (bar some obvious extremities) people should be able to put forward an opinion and it should be debated and if deemed stupid can be ridiculed for what it is. Instead what's your alternative solution because if that's what you feel then really it's a form of intellectual snobbery.
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Your last paragraph is worthy of deep discussion IMO. In short, expression of differing opinions is healthy. An inability to contextualize opinions due to a lack of rounded education on a subject -or lack of salient information- is dangerous. Dovetail the pair and you end up with decisions made and opinions formed with no basis of fact. Media has become saturated with opinions lacking in fact, and sadly, most people cannot discern the difference.

Strangely, it is one key thing that Scara and I agree on!!!!
 
Diamond Lights said:
Funnily enough it's not just physical print these places reach too... they do know how social media works.

Here's the Telegraph telling you not to worry about the COVID deaths because guess what, they were going to die anyway.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1271113764113448960
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This guy has been getting loads of notice on social media from the start playing this whole thing down. He’s a cancer doctor.

Tried to compare us to NZ recently , I mean really a so called intelligent professor trying to draw parallels between the UK and NZ. Laughable.

It’s almost like he’s become twitter famous and now playing on it.
 
P.D. said:
But is that the fault of the media or the individuals reading it? There is a variety of opinion in science so a lot of it isn't always simply a fact, there are some scientists (not many I agree) who feel lockdown should end faster. See this article (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ho-wants-lockdown-lifted-faster-sunetra-gupta) - the person is evidently highly qualified so why should they disagree with it unless people should only go with the consensus opinion.

Again you seem to believe people can't think for themselves, every single media outlet including the mail and telegraph have published articles slamming the government for how they're handling things, no one is celebrating Boris from what I can but many are taking a measured approach. I'm somewhere inbetween but don't feel he's done a good job overall.
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IMO the vast majority of people naturally want to follow rather than lead and they digest their “media” in the same way
They listen and read what’s available and in front of them rather than make an effect for something different
Human nature is such that anything that’s Slightly harder lends itself to certain people and certain situations
With the media now their moving more to a push system where they try to push to us what they want us to read and see rather than the traditional pull system where you had to go and buy a paper, use an encyclopaedia, ask an expert
 
Diamond Lights said:
not sure where to begin with this. I mean, 2 weeks ago we were told it was completely right to drive 30 mins to a tourist spot with a 4 year old in the car to test our eyesight during a global pandemic.

No one is saying people should not put forward an opinion, but if evidence is put forward that proves your opinion is factually incorrect for example, unfortunately people just double down rather than going "oh, ok i'll read this and consider it".

And this ties back to the topic, the government has done an awful job of handling this crisis, one of the worst in the world. This is not a right wing govt issue as I already pointed out, Germany, Austria, Netherlands are all centre right governments who have done 1000x times better at handling this crisis. Yet people are still celebrating Boris for doing a job well done, how can people discern the facts and come to that conclusion? unless they're not reading the facts?
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What is worse than a right a right wing government? An incompetent right wing government.
 
What I find most ironic about this cluster fudge, is that a government dominated by anti Euro ideologues, insisted on maintaining open borders and letting the virus waltz in. You could not make that up. Wow!
 
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