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Coronavirus

P.D. said:
From what I recall there wasn't a majority for those things but there were definitely people around advising more caution, like it or not when there's a once in 100 years pandemic people don't really believe the scare stories. Equally there was plenty of qualified people around who had the opposite opinion.

Problem with science is that there's usually people who back both sides of the argument, I mean look at Sweden - most countries would think they are crazy but clearly the people leading the policy are highly qualified to make those decisions, certainly as qualified as those advising a lockdown.
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What I have seen in all this is that science contradicts science in many way or at least scientific theory, I see so many experts predicting many outcomes, some defend our moves, some defend Sweden, some defend Germany etc etc etc. Maybe the time with this was to be dynamic about that advise in Government, who knows? I certainly don't.

I have worked in hosting academic conferences from a travel perspective including scientific so I do believe there is a train of thought that its easy for scientific experts to put these "theories" with hope they hit the right track and it cements their name in lights, which is what alot of scientists are striving for. Its in many ways a shot to nothing, a free hit, if they are wrong they have the unpredictable nature of science to fall back on.

Like you I have see enough that supports one side and the other.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I am not trying to shut down debate, I try and encourage it, I also like to question things, its good in my mind to do that. I wrong alot of the time, I don't know enough about this to be 400% correct and I accept that, I offer up a POV that I hold personally and if thats wrong thats fine, its a discussion board.

Non of this is personal either, its all just about thrashing it out, I also think in a weird way its almost therapeutic for people to unravel it in their heads.

I think there have been many crossroads, save economy was an early one, save the NHS and then save lives but I think saving the NHS and saving lives is in a way the same thing or the same ball park. I also think there will be a number of these cross roads to come, where a choice has to be made, no doubt there will be wrong choices made but also right ones.
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I think the forensic focus on the NHS has sadly sacrificed hundreds of lives in the community, such as In the care homes, the true extent of which we may never know. That is what irritates me about the self congratulating on protecting the NHS. There were warnings from public health professionals who felt marginalised. The traditional method of dealing with an infectious disease of test, trace and isolate were abandoned in favour of modelling. Anyway it’s too late now sadly.
 
LutonSpurs said:
We are talking about a safe work environment. Do you not feel that is a fair ask?
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I don't think it's for them to judge what is and isn't safe.

There's always a trade off between safety and getting the job done. If we wanted to remove all risk, then we could just do nothing and leave people safe in their beds. Businesses wouldn't last long though.

So the trade off between productivity and an increasingly apparent tiny risk has to be decided by those who know what they're doing. It's not for employees to decide where that line's drawn, that line is drawn over their heads - they simply choose whether to take that job or not.

Some people might think that working on a metal press is a little too risky for them, some might not like working with chemicals, some might think the glare from a monitor will give them cancer. They're all perfectly entitled not to take those jobs if they don't want them. Just as anyone wanting to be completely safe can just stay at home and not be paid.
 
P.D. said:
From what I recall there wasn't a majority for those things but there were definitely people around advising more caution, like it or not when there's a once in 100 years pandemic people don't really believe the scare stories. Equally there was plenty of qualified people around who had the opposite opinion.

Problem with science is that there's usually people who back both sides of the argument, I mean look at Sweden - most countries would think they are crazy but clearly the people leading the policy are highly qualified to make those decisions, certainly as qualified as those advising a lockdown.
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The evidence suggests far more qualified.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I know it was a bad joke.

The second wave is going to tell us alot about all of this and I have been clear where I think this ends up.
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"History repeats itself", 100 years ago, the second wave really did the damage, GHod help us, especially because people, being people will not agree to lockdown again in 6 months time.
 
markysimmo said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1257543147464335360
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Good comparison illustration.

Interesting thing is, I've had the misfortune of experiencing lockdown in Spain, London and now Australia.

Spain felt different (scary almost) but London and Melbourne really aren't that far apart. Social distancing in public, construction sites kept open, low numbers on public transport, enough people milling around in parks etc etc. I think the major difference was the border closures, quarantine requirements etc. I waltzed in at Heathrow following a flight from Madrid (mid March) without a care in the world from UK authorities. Melbourne airport was very different however, we were met on the tarmac by a bus which took us straight to a 5 star hotel for a 14 day quarantine/detention period, then out into the real world where supermarkets are fairly relaxed and people are straining for normal life to return. We're being clearly told, download the tracing app and things will return sooner. Currently they are on 5 million and need another 5 million before they can release the handbrake.

Aussies are a risk averse bunch and the economy/healthcare system are well placed to survive this but not without a fair amount of economic distress.

Essentially Boris and his cronies won't come out well once the inquiries begin into their response to this. He was as much of an embarrassment as Trump is in the US in terms of not getting the message in Jan/Feb.
 
P.D. said:
Ideally and I'm sure we've learnt our lesson now would be to lock down at the first hint of a virus so should it happen again in the future use our island status to our advantage and stop incomings (apart from citizens and those with right to remain and jobs here etc) in the equivalent of January, would have kept most of the economy going and a very low rate of cases.
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I'd love to think you were right about this, but current and recent indications are not promising.
 
Robspur12 said:
There were also a lot of people before the lockdown and as early as February who were arguing for banning mass gatherings and in March who argued against stopping community based testing. Many professionals in public health and the NHS were ignored in favour of mathematicians and their modelling. I think the focus was too much on protecting the NHS rather than saving lives per se. So it’s not just hindsight which is the popular accusation of people trying to shut down debate.
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I think you make an interesting point here, but it strikes at a more general problem.

Think about the public conversation and general culture around the NHS in recent years. You simply aren't allowed to criticise it. Much more than that, it seems that even failing to treat it with anything much below a religious-style zeal will get you quickly ostracised from the conversation. Look at the trend for Conservatives MP's wearing NHS pin badges. Like it or not this background environment and culture (driven very largely by the media) has a massive impact on the way politicians act.

It is really any wonder, when you consider the general background in which they operate that the Government might have (mistakenly?) over-prioritised the protection of the NHS? If indeed it does turn out to be a mistake, criticising them for it would be rich in my opinion. They'd have been slaughtered had they done any other.

We simply don't allow our politicians to make these kinds of decisions any more.
 
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JerusalemMan said:
Guess again.
I didn't think there were only two options.

As with so many things, it's more nuanced and grey.


Un-related, I noticed someone put up a link from John O'Connell a page back. Isn't he the 'journalist' who put out a scare-quote purporting to be from the UK-USA trade agreement in which the NHS was going to be sold off? Turns out he made the whole thing up.
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Did i say that there wasn't? That comment is evidence of your petticoat showing.
 
Gilzeantoscore said:
Did i say that there wasn't? That comment is evidence of your petticoat showing.
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:D

vic-and-bob.jpg
 
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