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Coronavirus

Danishfurniturelover said:
I think the future isin green economy and medical research. Have been saying that about medical research since before i was diagnosed.

I like the idea of the country becoming more self sustainable. Brexit for me was about a country having complete control over all its decisions right or wrong.

Not having a pop at the EU now but will be very interesting to see if they ever get an agreement on how to move forward after all this. Is another reason to keep our distance and just trade with them.

More interesting for me will be to see figures for general hospital admissions after all this. There saying in the news that people are not going to hospitals as much. Which would back up my thoughts the are a lot of attention seekers going to hospitals.
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Not sure I agree on last point, the question there is what was the directive to people (huge impact on if the data is useful)?

No viewpoint on UK as I don't live there, but I have had several friends who have "had" coronavirus (in US and Europe) and when they called in were basically told unless they were dying, stay home and self isolate (and most times refused the test as well), so none of them went to hospital despite absolutely having it, and being flat out in bed for days ..

Remember the main point of control is realistically to minimize the spike in people that will need medical attention so it doesn't happen all at once.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Is it the timing of the virus, or the government's preparedness that we are waiting on? Probably a bit of both. We're probably not setup fully for testing and tracking yet. The app isn't ready etc.

A proven principle in these instances is to give people some certainty as soon as possible. If we have a date or a road map it reduces individuals' stress and allows people to focus and prepare. The media shouldn't ask whether there are lock-down exit plans? It is not something people are interested in?
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Considering the value of the media is 90% of the time nonsense and considering the gravitas of the situation, I'd want them to respect the answers and maybe show some intelligence and work out if the reasoning behind those answers is sound. It's not a premier League managers press conference FFS.

I'd personally just tell them we're continuing with this phase for another month so no point asking anything more. And if we then have adjustments before then the gov can announce them at their own pace and maybe with some positivity that it's ahead of when they said.

Fwiw judging by the reports of some businesses opening up I would not be surprised if conversation s have been had between the gov and leaders of the various business sectors regarding a list of who is still off limits for opening and the ones that can, a framework of acceptable practices.
 
SpurMeUp said:
The thing is there is an awful lot to criticise about the government's handling of this pandemic. Opposition has the benefit of critiquing and pushing a government to improve. If the press towed the government line, and the opposition didn't say anything...we may as well be living in China.

I am always shocked by those who don't want people to hold government to account. Like they would prefer living under a totalitarian regime?
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Yeh I agree but trying to force the governments hand on when we relax seems point scoring to me.
 
Raziel said:
Not sure I agree on last point, the question there is what was the directive to people (huge impact on if the data is useful)?

No viewpoint on UK as I don't live there, but I have had several friends who have "had" coronavirus (in US and Europe) and when they called in were basically told unless they were dying, stay home and self isolate (and most times refused the test as well), so none of them went to hospital despite absolutely having it, and being flat out in bed for days ..

Remember the main point of control is realistically to minimize the spike in people that will need medical attention so it doesn't happen all at once.
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I think that thought is effective management of the virus, go home and recover unless your symptoms become severe, which eases the stretch on the nHS
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think that thought is effective management of the virus, go home and recover unless your symptoms become severe, which eases the stretch on the nHS
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Yes, no disagreement in principle but two points

1. It makes hospitalization rates hard to truly measure if you are doing that level of prioritization
2. Unfortunately I suspect when all is done, the higher death rates in countries/areas that lacked the hospital capacity (therefore "refused" people without fully understanding the severity) will be collateral damage of the decisions (seems to be a number of cases of people being sent home to return days later and not survive, or actually dying at home)
 
Genuine question - to which I’m sure there’s an obvious answer that I’m missing.

Given that Germany and the UK have roughly the same number of confirmed cases (around 150,000) why has Germany recorded less than 2,000 deaths, while our hospital-only figure is over 20,000 (and it seems generally accepted that we’re probably nearer to 40,000)?

Neither health service was overwhelmed to the extent that in the north of Italy was, so it seems (to my untrained eye) a massive variation for the same disease.
 
SpurMeUp said:
The thing is there is an awful lot to criticise about the government's handling of this pandemic. Opposition has the benefit of critiquing and pushing a government to improve. If the press towed the government line, and the opposition didn't say anything...we may as well be living in China.

I am always shocked by those who don't want people to hold government to account. Like they would prefer living under a totalitarian regime?
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Interesting that you take such an extreme, black & white position. Particularly when the general point I was making was arguing for the very opposite of such an approach.

Did you actually read what I wrote, or are you just opposing for the sake of opposing? ;)
 
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Raziel said:
Yes, no disagreement in principle but two points

1. It makes hospitalization rates hard to truly measure if you are doing that level of prioritization
2. Unfortunately I suspect when all is done, the higher death rates in countries/areas that lacked the hospital capacity (therefore "refused" people without fully understanding the severity) will be collateral damage of the decisions (seems to be a number of cases of people being sent home to return days later and not survive, or actually dying at home)
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I think point 2 is tough because there is no stock severity so you send people away hoping they have mild cases and if not come back. Thats a better plan than admitting all.
 
Mikey10 said:
Genuine question - to which I’m sure there’s an obvious answer that I’m missing.

Given that Germany and the UK have roughly the same number of confirmed cases (around 150,000) why has Germany recorded less than 2,000 deaths, while our hospital-only figure is over 20,000 (and it seems generally accepted that we’re probably nearer to 40,000)?

Neither health service was overwhelmed to the extent that in the north of Italy was, so it seems (to my untrained eye) a massive variation for the same disease.
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Because Germany find/track/test more people. They are simply picking up, or identifying, more than we are.
 
Grays_1890 said:
I think point 2 is tough because there is no stock severity so you send people away hoping they have mild cases and if not come back. Thats a better plan than admitting all.
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Most people can recover at home. Hospitals couldn't deal with everyone who gets it being admitted.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Because Germany find/track/test more people. They are simply picking up, or identifying, more than we are.
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I wondered about that...but then dismissed it as it suggests that our infected/post-infected numbers are probably around the 3 million mark. (i.e. Germany's confirmed figures x 20). In fact, probably quite a bit more, given that Germany are unlikely to have picked up anywhere near every case.

Seems high...but would be good news if true.
 
Mikey10 said:
I wondered about that...but then dismissed it as it suggests that our infected/post-infected numbers are probably around the 3 million mark. (i.e. Germany's confirmed figures x 20). In fact, probably quite a bit more, given that Germany are unlikely to have picked up anywhere near every case.

Seems high...but would be good news if true.
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Up until recently, we've only test people who require hospitalisation. So we are logging only the more severe cases. Germany have had a general population testing setup from what a month or more ago?

Quite an intersting way to guestimate figures. But there are too many variables e.g. were there more infected people to start with entering the UK etc etc.
 
Raziel said:
Not sure I agree on last point, the question there is what was the directive to people (huge impact on if the data is useful)?

No viewpoint on UK as I don't live there, but I have had several friends who have "had" coronavirus (in US and Europe) and when they called in were basically told unless they were dying, stay home and self isolate (and most times refused the test as well), so none of them went to hospital despite absolutely having it, and being flat out in bed for days ..

Remember the main point of control is realistically to minimize the spike in people that will need medical attention so it doesn't happen all at once.
Click to expand...

Sorry i meant for non covid 19 related illnesses. I meant that people clog up A&E when they stub a toe on a chair. That is my take of the few times i have been in hospitals accident and emergency rooms.
 
Mikey10 said:
I wondered about that...but then dismissed it as it suggests that our infected/post-infected numbers are probably around the 3 million mark. (i.e. Germany's confirmed figures x 20). In fact, probably quite a bit more, given that Germany are unlikely to have picked up anywhere near every case.

Seems high...but would be good news if true.
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Might also be a difference in methods of recording.

For example, the French Paradox that few people die of heart failure, despite their scrumptious diet is a fallacy. In the UK, if an old and dying person has heart failure - it's recorded as heart failure. In France it's recorded as natural causes because it was old age that really got them.

Very difficult to compare death rates between countries without a lot more knowledge as to how those data are calculated and collected.
 
scaramanga said:
Might also be a difference in methods of recording.

For example, the French Paradox that few people die of heart failure, despite their scrumptious diet is a fallacy. In the UK, if an old and dying person has heart failure - it's recorded as heart failure. In France it's recorded as natural causes because it was old age that really got them.

Very difficult to compare death rates between countries without a lot more knowledge as to how those data are calculated and collected.
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Yep

The is definitely a difference between how deaths a reported. Again the difference between dying with and dying of is being reported differently and there are a number of states (not just China) who are lying about their death rates.
 
Legohamster said:
The problem is Scotland/Wales have announce theirs and countries like SA - who are not the most organised are rolling out plans.

I think most people want a guide - dates not needed

Businesses need it, it’s all well and good saying “hold on a little longer” but some business need more.

Pubs/restaurants need to work out what it will all look like and if it’s worth doing.
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It strikes me that the Scottish and Walsh plans for ending the lockdown is a set of criteria very similar to the UK government's five points. The main difference is the UK government isn't calling it a plan.

The Scottish one also have a point about all lives being valuable and worth saving (as opposition to the herd immunity argument). If they are serious they can't relax the lockdown until there is a vaccine. I suspect this wasn't meant.
 
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