Lemonade Money
Nayim
Lol, we need to sack our managers even more frequently than we do already. Righto.
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Contingency planning : When Ange is sacked, who should replace him?
- Thread starter Daisuk
- Start date
Muttley
Mido
Or do we just need to get better at recruitment so we don't have to.
I said evaluate but even so, yes
- There is zero correlation between managers being in role and success, successful managers will stay longer in role but if you are not good, then staying longer changes what?
- United are in the mess they are because they let the club/squad meander under OGS (desperately unqualified) and ETH (unsuited to league) and crippled themselves by making the same mistake with ETH that people are advocating we do just because he won 2 cups (more than Ange)
Failure cannot be rewarded at these levels, Ange has got more resources than most other Spurs managers in the last 20 years and has produced the worse league result by 9 places to pretty much everyone else (bar the Ramos season), 9 places? for all but one season we have been 2nd-8th for 18 years and you think we shouldn't consider firing the guy that with more money got 17th?
I don't consider winning a trophy a tangible skill like some people seem to which is why I'm not prepared to let the cup win cloud my judgment over the decision. I don't wish to incur the wrath of you and others by adding any more context to the subject of the Europa win so with that in mind I'll just say that the league form over 2 years holds more sway with me than a Europa League win does wrt to the decision and there's not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that Frank or any other of a long list of PL managers would do better than Ange here.
ricky2tricky4city
Luka Modric
I think it stands up that if we had lost in Bilbao 99/100 fans would have agreed that Ange should go. So by that observation everything before the final was worthy of sacking him, so really there's no point discussing that stuff.
So it's just 90mins of football that gives him a chance, and that's not even the 90 mins itself...it was pretty unremarkable in a football sense. The only new consideration is whether we think 'getting over the line' is going to bring about a paradigm shift in the players and clubs mentality going forward?
Gazza
Pedro Mendes
I just don’t see how he can compete in the league and win another trophy. He has shown this to be the case. He has also shown that if all of his players are not fit then the system doesn’t work and then we have to play an even worse version of his style or refer to classic conte /mourinho without actually looking that solid.
We beat a decent team in Frankfurt and scraped by against one of the worst Manchester United team’s I’ve witnessed. Yes you can only beat what’s in front of you; however I would hedge a bet that the top half of the primer league would have won the Europa with the run that we had.
I’m more disappointed at how easily we have become to beat. I’ve got to the point where if we lose its water off a ducks back where before I used to spit feathers.
Surely we need a manager that knows how to use the squad, can adapt when there are injuries, and compete in more than one competition.
He’s won the cup for us. I’m thankful and it’s brilliant … but it’sa ruthless business and the results don’t cut the mustard. This isn’t just last season … but been going on for over a season and a half.
A 90 minute game shouldn’t mask the deficiencies he has shown during his management
We beat a decent team in Frankfurt and scraped by against one of the worst Manchester United team’s I’ve witnessed. Yes you can only beat what’s in front of you; however I would hedge a bet that the top half of the primer league would have won the Europa with the run that we had.
I’m more disappointed at how easily we have become to beat. I’ve got to the point where if we lose its water off a ducks back where before I used to spit feathers.
Surely we need a manager that knows how to use the squad, can adapt when there are injuries, and compete in more than one competition.
He’s won the cup for us. I’m thankful and it’s brilliant … but it’sa ruthless business and the results don’t cut the mustard. This isn’t just last season … but been going on for over a season and a half.
A 90 minute game shouldn’t mask the deficiencies he has shown during his management
Roland Beurre
Ilie Dumitrescu
PRESS RELEASE
I have no plans to divorce my wife.
(I have no idea what Mrs Beurre's plans are. She probably did tell me but I stopped listening around about 2006)
I have no plans to divorce my wife.
(I have no idea what Mrs Beurre's plans are. She probably did tell me but I stopped listening around about 2006)
Lemonade Money
Nayim
Why bother at all?
tommysvr
Michael Carrick
What have we achieved to consider ourselves a big club like those you mentioned?
Lemonade Money
Nayim
I loved Jol, but he couldn't.
I loved Redknapp, but he couldn't.
I loved Pochettino, but he couldn't either.
Ange knows what it takes to get it over the line. Season 3 may be a brick show, but we'll never know without trying. And you want to throw that all away for Frank? Unbelievable.
I loved Redknapp, but he couldn't.
I loved Pochettino, but he couldn't either.
Ange knows what it takes to get it over the line. Season 3 may be a brick show, but we'll never know without trying. And you want to throw that all away for Frank? Unbelievable.
Robspur12
Jimmy Neighbour
We saw how that guy fared in the league last season....hence the debate over to stick or twist.
Robspur12
Jimmy Neighbour
Chelsea didn't think "getting over the line" was enough to keep Di Matteo and, at the risk of devaluing the Europa League, he won the FA cup and Champions League in the same season..
Bedfordspurs
Graham Roberts
They have him a contract didn’t they?
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Beyond this, to be clear, if he goes, it isn't because he didn't succeed on all fronts, like the top clubs tend to aim for.
It's because he didn't succeed in the league, specifically. He could win a cup treble but still be under pressure for finishing 17th - conversely, he could finish 2nd, win absolutely nothing, and be lauded for doing so. That's the message sacking him sends.
As we've discussed, this will not produce the mentality of a top club. All that does is create a mentality of safety-first - finish 4th, win nothing, and keep your job. Take a risk to win a trophy, and lose it.
We mock Wenger-era Arsenal for having this mentality, but sack Ange and this is exactly what we aspire to be, too.
Robspur12
Jimmy Neighbour
I can't remember tbh. But he didn't last long even after those big trophy wins.
Robspur12
Jimmy Neighbour
Or it shows you have to do both?! The clubs that win the most trophies are generally those who do well in the league too.
I've said it before, different clubs won trophies this season. We were the only one of those who gave up on the league. In that sense this season was unprecedented.
He only succeeded on one front (of four), and I can't dismiss that because so many others have failed at that one thing, but it's not "just the league". And again, as @Robspur12 pointed out, Palace & Saudi Sportswashing Machine also won this season, so some component of taking advantage of the moment was there.
You think accepting 17th with 22 losses will produce the mentality of a big club? United has literally just shown what betting on someone (ETH) that every single stat/indicator shows isn't suited for the job gets you, just because they won a cup.
Any defense of Ange is more emotion than anything else, lets be clear, if Ange stays
- He needs to reduce the number of losses by about 60%
- He needs to reduce number of goals by about 21 in a 38 game season
- He need to increase PPG by about +0.81 per game (we only managed 1 PPG, so getting to 1.81 is a huge uplift)
The math/logic say he won't do it
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
But if you have to do both, why was no manager sacked for finishing 4th/5th but trophyless?
AVB wasn't, Poch wasn't, Conte wasn't, even Ange wasn't after finishing 5th.
It's because we don't prioritize the cups as much as the league.
Fair point that others won trophies without throwing the league. I'm not defending him finishing 17th - it's unacceptable and can never happen again.
But he did something that our incentive structure actively discourages, in throwing the league to win a cup - which has happened too rarely at Spurs for us to demand perfection at the first go.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
No, it definitely won't. Like I said, we can't accept 17th ever again, trophy or no trophy.
But the fact remains, he finished 17th with 22 losses...and won a trophy. Which we haven't done for 17 years, to the point where the entire club was labouring under the mental burden of being constant also-rans, the butt of everyone's jokes.
He had a point when he said that finishing 4th-5th changes nothing - this club has finished 4th-5th plenty of times. the only way to build a winning mentality, is to win things.
As for what United do, they are sticking with a man who lost more games than Ten Hag, and left the club in a worse spot than Ten Hag had them when he left. I wouldn't call them a particularly well-run outfit, but they do know how to win things, and they feel there's more to Amorim than the underlying stats show.
I think we're in a similar pickle with Ange.