Climate Change

[scaramanga]

As I said, if you can't charge for whatever reason - grid issues, charger station problems, driving in remote areas - you are still okay in a hybrid! You're covered.

I think you've missed the point. I was asking @Rorschach about grid capacity. Hybrids all plugged in at 7pm when everyone gets home is the same as EVs all plugged in at 7pm - the capacity problem remains.

Re. handling - the sportiest of sports cars have both batteries and an engine. Of course, it adds weight over just an engine, but as McClaren, and Porsche have shown it does not hold back performance.

Elite tech often becomes mainstream. That's not to say people will be driving supercars. Just that with clever software and two energy sources you can have fast cars that will save CO2. Just seems the most natural evolution now. Pure EVs have too many limitations as things stand and ICEs are so advanced and efficient now with the use of turbos, I can see them 'subsidising' the evolving clean technologies.

And again. Performance cars don't use batteries for eco-friendly travel, they use them to supplement the engine to create more power.

That's very different to using a battery/motors as main method of propulsion - everything about the trade-offs is different.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I think you've missed the point. I was asking @Rorschach about grid capacity. Hybrids all plugged in at 7pm when everyone gets home is the same as EVs all plugged in at 7pm - the capacity problem remains.

Point was, if you had shortages, or charging cars was capped one night, you'd still be fine in a hybrid.

And again. Performance cars don't use batteries for eco-friendly travel, they use them to supplement the engine to create more power.

That's very different to using a battery/motors as main method of propulsion - everything about the trade-offs is different.

Clever software can manipulate two energy sources to give the desired outcome. How often can you rag your car at the moment? Probably only 10% of the time. Cars already have sports mode etc to cater for this. In the future/now hybrids can use a combination of petrol and electricity to either offer optimal range or to offer optimal performance.

Currently, you wouldn't take an EV to say France. Or to Cornwall for a holiday. Stopping every few hours and waiting for an hour is not happening. In a hybrid there is no range anxiety, once you get to Cornwall you charge up. Your MPG will be tiny. And you won't have any restrictions on what you can do or where you can go.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Autonomy is big thing for a lot of people and synonymous with owning a car. Want to depart at 4am - you can. From wherever you may be.

Right now people can use various car-sharing schemes. Where I live you can hire a Zip car for an hour for £10. There are also ride-sharing schemes. But it doesn't suit the way most people like to live. People love freedom and independence. I can't see us developing a collective sharing ethos in 10 years.

Personally I quite like a sharing ethos and the more sociable life it can bring. I did research in Cuba where everyone is poor, and they rely on social links far more and are they are far more sociable - and nourished socially - than we are. But people won't go backwards. They like independence and freedom. The technology has to offer this or it won't work imo.

I think I may have misled you By pooling I meant every households individual car journeys now being provided by a Uber type network. ie in a way your on demand private driver. (who obviously work for others as well). Think if someone can be outside in 5-10 mins of asking, that's acceptable to the vast majority.

Think the zip car type thing is a great supplement for longer journeys or you want to disappear for the weekend.

I'm with you on the car sharing ethos though.

 

[scaramanga]

Point was, if you had shortages, or charging cars was capped one night, you'd still be fine in a hybrid.

That's not acceptable. This isn't Cuba, we don't want the govt doling out limited resources that all first world countries have available to everyone.

Clever software can manipulate two energy sources to give the desired outcome. How often can you rag your car at the moment? Probably only 10% of the time. Cars already have sports mode etc to cater for this. In the future/now hybrids can use a combination of petrol and electricity to either offer optimal range or to offer optimal performance.

Currently, you wouldn't take an EV to say France. Or to Cornwall for a holiday. Stopping every few hours and waiting for an hour is not happening. In a hybrid there is no range anxiety, once you get to Cornwall you charge up. Your MPG will be tiny. And you won't have any restrictions on what you can do or where you can go.

That's not how car design works.

A battery/motor designed to supplement hypercar power delivery might, in time, become cheap enough and common enough to supplement power delivery in a standard car. The transition of technology is entirely different to go from additional power to main drive.

And I quite often get the chance to go flat out (at least up to around 80-90) - it's why I choose the routes I do and buy the kind of cars I do.

 

[Rorschach]

What he says in 4 years when industries are detailing the job losses those plans will cause and he's running for re-election is likely to show a truer picture of where he stands.

The complete opposite will happen is what the projections show. They expect a net growth of jobs in the sector, just in different areas. I'll dig up some numbers if you like but I have no worries that Biden's plan (Jay Inslee's plan really) will drive the jobs numbers up.

The fossil fuel industry is on its death bed already anyway. The subsidies are the only thing to keep large parts of it afloat now as irrespective of the climate benefits the financials are against it. The money is leaving.

 

[Rorschach]

As for charging of electric cars, most people charge overnight at a cheaper rate (as there's plenty of spare grid capacity at night). Add to that the plummeting price of producing electricity by renewable sources extra capacity could be added fairly cheaply. Also as the batteries get better the frequency of charging would drop, I assume. I've never heard any of the climate wonks mention this as a big problem.

 

[Rorschach]

Point was, if you had shortages, or charging cars was capped one night, you'd still be fine in a hybrid.



Clever software can manipulate two energy sources to give the desired outcome. How often can you rag your car at the moment? Probably only 10% of the time. Cars already have sports mode etc to cater for this. In the future/now hybrids can use a combination of petrol and electricity to either offer optimal range or to offer optimal performance.

Currently, you wouldn't take an EV to say France. Or to Cornwall for a holiday. Stopping every few hours and waiting for an hour is not happening. In a hybrid there is no range anxiety, once you get to Cornwall you charge up. Your MPG will be tiny. And you won't have any restrictions on what you can do or where you can go.

I see hybrids as a stop gap really until the charging grid becomes ubiquitous and batteries become better. I could even see hydrogen fuel cells jumping ahead of hybrid tech in a few years.

 

[P.D.]

Moving fully away from the combustion engine and the ridiculous reliance on a (dirty) finite resource is a logical progression

Also, In the time frame they are talking (2030-2040), you need to be looking at ownership patterns. I believe vehicle ownership will look very different with the cars per household looking much reduced. People will work from home more, shopping is online and delivered. Driverless cars in some kind of Uber type network will exist, pooling many car journeys, making private ownership redundant or at least not a necessity. Many people genuinely hate driving and bare minimum think it's a waste of time (it is).

This will naturally feed into solving some of the issues perceived when applied to today's ownership profile, and knock on green benefits are not hard to imagine either.

Probably will go that way but how dull it sounds when you read it, all a bit 1984 with armies of ants packing boxes in warehouses while armies of grey trucks drive around dropping off deliveries where everyone stays at home and no one socialises or talks to anyone.

 

[scaramanga]

The complete opposite will happen is what the projections show. They expect a net growth of jobs in the sector, just in different areas. I'll dig up some numbers if you like but I have no worries that Biden's plan (Jay Inslee's plan really) will drive the jobs numbers up.

The fossil fuel industry is on its death bed already anyway. The subsidies are the only thing to keep large parts of it afloat now as irrespective of the climate benefits the financials are against it. The money is leaving.

I don't mean the fossil fuel industry itself - I'm the last person to suggest taxpayers prop up a dying and unprofitable industry.

I'm talking about the increased costs other businesses will face as a consequence.

 

[Rorschach]

I don't mean the fossil fuel industry itself - I'm the last person to suggest taxpayers prop up a dying and unprofitable industry.

I'm talking about the increased costs other businesses will face as a consequence.

What costs are you thinking of?

 

[scaramanga]

As for charging of electric cars, most people charge overnight at a cheaper rate (as there's plenty of spare grid capacity at night). Add to that the plummeting price of producing electricity by renewable sources extra capacity could be added fairly cheaply. Also as the batteries get better the frequency of charging would drop, I assume. I've never heard any of the climate wonks mention this as a big problem.

The grid struggles when something huge is on TV and everyone tries to make a cup of tea in the first break.

The amount of electricity required to replace our motor fleet with EVs is huge. Every time I hear about greener energy it's about how many decades we are from replacing our current needs with other forms. This is a different challenge altogether.

 

[scaramanga]

What costs are you thinking of?

Taxes for starters - someone has to pay for it all.

Many energy intensive industries are being hit by more and more punitive costs for what is an essential part of their process. Overseas alternatives mean increasing prices isn't an option.

Pretty much any groups representing manufacturers will tell you this is a regular govt issue of "Well I'm sure all those other countries will increase costs one day...."

 

[Rorschach]

The grid struggles when something huge is on TV and everyone tries to make a cup of tea in the first break.

The amount of electricity required to replace our motor fleet with EVs is huge. Every time I hear about greener energy it's about how many decades we are from replacing our current needs with other forms. This is a different challenge altogether.

I guess that is what skyplus is for. Staggered tea times.

 

[Rorschach]

Taxes for starters - someone has to pay for it all.

Many energy intensive industries are being hit by more and more punitive costs for what is an essential part of their process. Overseas alternatives mean increasing prices isn't an option.

Pretty much any groups representing manufacturers will tell you this is a regular govt issue of "Well I'm sure all those other countries will increase costs one day...."

Wait till they hear about Brexit.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Probably will go that way but how dull it sounds when you read it, all a bit 1984 with armies of ants packing boxes in warehouses while armies of grey trucks drive around dropping off deliveries where everyone stays at home and no one socialises or talks to anyone.

How sad that you think that that leads to that. Sorry, it's the rebirth of local community, much better than people barely knowing their neighbours, potential of real contact, (not SM driven gonads) for all ages, supporting local business, and plain old looking out for each other.

 

[P.D.]

How sad that you think that that leads to that. Sorry, it's the rebirth of local community, much better than people barely knowing their neighbours, potential of real contact, (not SM driven gonads) for all ages, supporting local business, and plain old looking out for each other.

I'd like that to be the case but realistically the more things people get delivered the less they're going out to high streets which then impacts on the smaller shops and local traders. There's always exceptions and in summer people will be out more etc but the less people go out the less interaction there will be.

 

[Bullet]

I'd like that to be the case but realistically the more things people get delivered the less they're going out to high streets which then impacts on the smaller shops and local traders. There's always exceptions and in summer people will be out more etc but the less people go out the less interaction there will be.

If I ever went out shopping back in those distant Pre-Covid days, I would begrudge the existence of every human that got in my way, wish them to disappear, and be happy never to see any of them ever again.

 

[Bullet]

I think you've missed the point. I was asking @Rorschach about grid capacity. Hybrids all plugged in at 7pm when everyone gets home is the same as EVs all plugged in at 7pm - the capacity problem remains.

Clever tech will mean you can tell your car to either "charge ASAP as much as possible right now, I need to get going soon"
or
"Wait til capacity is down e.g. 3AM and then charge, it is fine to be ready by 7AM or whatevs"
or
"Dispense the Wattage you have on board back into the grid at a rate of X pence per Watt.... then at 3AM start drawing it back down at Y pence per Watt"

This latter being the magic key to everything... the cars will be a network of giant batteries that will stabilise grid capacity.

All you need is for the car to be clever enough to push/pull electricity and tot up X-Y cashback which is not rocket science.

 

[Rorschach]

Clever tech will mean you can tell your car to either "charge ASAP as much as possible right now, I need to get going soon"
or
"Wait til capacity is down e.g. 3AM and then charge, it is fine to be ready by 7AM or whatevs"
or
"Dispense the Wattage you have on board back into the grid at a rate of X pence per Watt.... then at 3AM start drawing it back down at Y pence per Watt"

This latter being the magic key to everything... the cars will be a network of giant batteries that will stabilise grid capacity.

All you need is for the car to be clever enough to push/pull electricity and tot up X-Y cashback which is not rocket science.

Car science?

 

[Rorschach]

This is good. Credit to Boris where it is due. I could nitpick on parts of it but that would be churlish of me as the general thrust of it is good. The UK is doing well on this front compared to most but the targets definitely needed a revamp. Let's see what becomes policy.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1328827777462702081