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Circumcision
- Thread starter africanspurs
- Start date
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
some would argue not much has changed aside from punishment if you get caught doing it...and if you are talking about racism and slavery in context to culture change then i agree with you on that...if you are comparing either of those to circumcising a child i think a reality check or personal experience on either of those is definately in order..there is no way or reason to compare the two and the former i would say was a matter of dehumanising someone into something that could be considered an object or even less of value even.
Culture does change and some would say that is changes for the better and some would argue worse. In the end if its suits the goals for the most powerful or the majority, often guided by its leaders then change can and will happen.
Yours is an issue of choice , something that a baby does not have when this gets done, to do what you deem unecessary for whatever reasons you have. i can empathise with this but doesnt mean that i dont also empathise with the possibility that my son would be growing up in a climate where NOT having this done could be a big problem for him and him subjugated to whatever kind of hardship he could experience fro not having it done
I think i am right about the hygiene aspect personally but i do agree its not hard to clean your own dingdong or your childs for that matter. thing is though its still considered hygienic just that doctors dont think the potential risks of the procedure are outweighed by that particular benefit
cant disagree with this, however i still think that culture will always play a large part in my life and my sons life. i wouldnt say parroting is insulting...i think thats about as accurate as one can get tbh but doesnt mean that what i am parroting isnt true....but nor does it mean my son cant chose this for himself after being put with all the pros and cons infront of him..which is what you are saying.
But i also do think that if this can be done safely and painless then what is the actual harm in doing this? especially if it could make him side step a lot of aggro?
plus cultural change in Nigeria? west africa? well basically it takes alot ..... and by a lot i mean more than alot and than i believe you could imagine. i dont think i would be using my son for that no matter how compelling the arguments against it are...which all comes down to one point actually..
the right to choose
this explains alot...you probably havent had to stand up to something that would have you badly victimised before..oddly enough...can you track the social change that allows you to be openly against GHod and religion? i would be interested to know..
sorry to be completely ignorant and forgive my love of comic books but you guys believed in The NORSE gods at some point? how did that belief structure get wiped out, what followed and how did it become nationally acceptable to use pure logic against faith and religious belief?
"the honsest" :- what does that mean?
plus ..do you believe people that hold their culture and / or their religion to NOT be enlightened?
some would argue not much has changed aside from punishment if you get caught doing it...and if you are talking about racism and slavery in context to culture change then i agree with you on that...if you are comparing either of those to circumcising a child i think a reality check or personal experience on either of those is definately in order..there is no way or reason to compare the two and the former i would say was a matter of dehumanising someone into something that could be considered an object or even less of value even.
Culture does change and some would say that is changes for the better and some would argue worse. In the end if its suits the goals for the most powerful or the majority, often guided by its leaders then change can and will happen.
Yours is an issue of choice , something that a baby does not have when this gets done, to do what you deem unecessary for whatever reasons you have. i can empathise with this but doesnt mean that i dont also empathise with the possibility that my son would be growing up in a climate where NOT having this done could be a big problem for him and him subjugated to whatever kind of hardship he could experience fro not having it done
I think i am right about the hygiene aspect personally but i do agree its not hard to clean your own dingdong or your childs for that matter. thing is though its still considered hygienic just that doctors dont think the potential risks of the procedure are outweighed by that particular benefit
cant disagree with this, however i still think that culture will always play a large part in my life and my sons life. i wouldnt say parroting is insulting...i think thats about as accurate as one can get tbh but doesnt mean that what i am parroting isnt true....but nor does it mean my son cant chose this for himself after being put with all the pros and cons infront of him..which is what you are saying.
But i also do think that if this can be done safely and painless then what is the actual harm in doing this? especially if it could make him side step a lot of aggro?
plus cultural change in Nigeria? west africa? well basically it takes alot ..... and by a lot i mean more than alot and than i believe you could imagine. i dont think i would be using my son for that no matter how compelling the arguments against it are...which all comes down to one point actually..
the right to choose
this explains alot...you probably havent had to stand up to something that would have you badly victimised before..oddly enough...can you track the social change that allows you to be openly against GHod and religion? i would be interested to know..
sorry to be completely ignorant and forgive my love of comic books but you guys believed in The NORSE gods at some point? how did that belief structure get wiped out, what followed and how did it become nationally acceptable to use pure logic against faith and religious belief?
"the honsest" :- what does that mean?
plus ..do you believe people that hold their culture and / or their religion to NOT be enlightened?
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
It seems you overestimate me, you might have to point out the flaws...
It seems you overestimate me, you might have to point out the flaws...
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
Racism and slavery are obviously massive changes compared to male circumcision. Pointing out extreme cases where cultural relativism fails still points out why cultural relativism fails.
Do you know anyone that argues that "western culture" has changed for the worse over the last 200 years?
I implied the massive cultural changes you mention for the sake of argument, but there have been many much smaller improvements that are comparable to male circumcision. Surely you can think of a whole host of changes that have taken place yourself?
If it becomes a big problem for him then won't he have the choice to do something about it?
And we agree that we should probably keep getting our medical opinions from doctors? Thus this is an unnecessary operation from a medical viewpoint, one that carries more risk than benefit. Something that has to be chosen by the patient...
Interesting. To me the idea of parroting an argument (repeating it without thinking about it) is most definitely is an insult.
Culture obviously plays a big part in my life too, I'm not saying that culture is worthless or should be discarded. I'm saying that cultural traditions should be looked at with a sceptical eye and if there's a conflict between culture and rational morality the choice seems pretty straightforward.
Not quite sure what you're saying with the italicized part? Performing a circumcision removes the choice, he won't be able to chose for himself.
No operation, no matter how small, is entirely safe. If that's not harm enough I redirect you again to the point that this is an issue of consent, no consent can be given, the operation is a voluntary one.
I was under the impression you live in the UK? Do you not plan to have your kid grow up there?
How much do you know about European history? Remember Yugoslavia for example? It has taken a lot for sure, it has taken time, the change has been largely generational.
I don't think you should have the right to choose to perform this operation on your son. You obviously do, and I cannot take this away from you. I only hope that in time the cultural shift will be such that this too will fall by the wayside of religious and cultural history.
"We" did believe in them, although it's closing in on 1000 years since Norway was made into a primarily Christian nation. No surprise this change was, shall we say influenced, by the sword. Much closer in time we got a half decent constitution in 1814, heavily inspired by the enlightenment and the French and American constitutions. Unlike the Americans, we (like the UK I believe?) have our freedom of speech and religion not quite directly from a constitution. But the general interpretation is fairly similar and the ideas of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press can be traced back to the enlightenment and the renaissance, from there back through the Islamic nations that passed ideas from ancient Greece and Rome back to Europe at the end of the dark ages.
In more modern times the changes have been gradual, incremental and not always directly reflected in law. We still have a blasphemy law on our books even, although it's been a while since anyone was tried for blasphemy luckily. Although not as long as one could wish, and trust me we still have a very long way to go. I imagine our progress has been fairly similar to the progress in the UK.
I believe that an intellectually honest evaluation of the evidence present to us leads to agnosticism and atheism. I believe that a lot of people who outwardly present themselves as religious in more believing societies have privately abandoned their faith, but they pretend to still believe because of social and cultural pressure. There's even a support group in the US for priests who no longer have their faith, but are in a situation where they don't want to come out with that in public so they remain in the priesthood. For many who don't believe, but are surrounded by those who do honesty requires a whole lot of bravery and also sacrifice.
I don't think there's a dichotomy between not enlightened and enlightened, it's more of a continuum and there are many topics where people will vary along this continuum. I hope I have made myself clear that I see nothing wrong with holding the parts of a culture that can be seen as positive or neutral, something I think we can agree on. I believe the ideas of the enlightenment are lived up to better by those who do not hold religious beliefs and by those who are willing to look sceptically on their own culture and are willing to reject cultural ideas that are seen as harmful. It's a culture most certainly worth protecting.
Racism and slavery are obviously massive changes compared to male circumcision. Pointing out extreme cases where cultural relativism fails still points out why cultural relativism fails.
Do you know anyone that argues that "western culture" has changed for the worse over the last 200 years?
I implied the massive cultural changes you mention for the sake of argument, but there have been many much smaller improvements that are comparable to male circumcision. Surely you can think of a whole host of changes that have taken place yourself?
If it becomes a big problem for him then won't he have the choice to do something about it?
And we agree that we should probably keep getting our medical opinions from doctors? Thus this is an unnecessary operation from a medical viewpoint, one that carries more risk than benefit. Something that has to be chosen by the patient...
Interesting. To me the idea of parroting an argument (repeating it without thinking about it) is most definitely is an insult.
Culture obviously plays a big part in my life too, I'm not saying that culture is worthless or should be discarded. I'm saying that cultural traditions should be looked at with a sceptical eye and if there's a conflict between culture and rational morality the choice seems pretty straightforward.
Not quite sure what you're saying with the italicized part? Performing a circumcision removes the choice, he won't be able to chose for himself.
No operation, no matter how small, is entirely safe. If that's not harm enough I redirect you again to the point that this is an issue of consent, no consent can be given, the operation is a voluntary one.
I was under the impression you live in the UK? Do you not plan to have your kid grow up there?
How much do you know about European history? Remember Yugoslavia for example? It has taken a lot for sure, it has taken time, the change has been largely generational.
I don't think you should have the right to choose to perform this operation on your son. You obviously do, and I cannot take this away from you. I only hope that in time the cultural shift will be such that this too will fall by the wayside of religious and cultural history.
"We" did believe in them, although it's closing in on 1000 years since Norway was made into a primarily Christian nation. No surprise this change was, shall we say influenced, by the sword. Much closer in time we got a half decent constitution in 1814, heavily inspired by the enlightenment and the French and American constitutions. Unlike the Americans, we (like the UK I believe?) have our freedom of speech and religion not quite directly from a constitution. But the general interpretation is fairly similar and the ideas of freedom of speech, freedom of religion and freedom of the press can be traced back to the enlightenment and the renaissance, from there back through the Islamic nations that passed ideas from ancient Greece and Rome back to Europe at the end of the dark ages.
In more modern times the changes have been gradual, incremental and not always directly reflected in law. We still have a blasphemy law on our books even, although it's been a while since anyone was tried for blasphemy luckily. Although not as long as one could wish, and trust me we still have a very long way to go. I imagine our progress has been fairly similar to the progress in the UK.
I believe that an intellectually honest evaluation of the evidence present to us leads to agnosticism and atheism. I believe that a lot of people who outwardly present themselves as religious in more believing societies have privately abandoned their faith, but they pretend to still believe because of social and cultural pressure. There's even a support group in the US for priests who no longer have their faith, but are in a situation where they don't want to come out with that in public so they remain in the priesthood. For many who don't believe, but are surrounded by those who do honesty requires a whole lot of bravery and also sacrifice.
I don't think there's a dichotomy between not enlightened and enlightened, it's more of a continuum and there are many topics where people will vary along this continuum. I hope I have made myself clear that I see nothing wrong with holding the parts of a culture that can be seen as positive or neutral, something I think we can agree on. I believe the ideas of the enlightenment are lived up to better by those who do not hold religious beliefs and by those who are willing to look sceptically on their own culture and are willing to reject cultural ideas that are seen as harmful. It's a culture most certainly worth protecting.
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
I had this done when I was about 4, coz it was too tight (though I'd say my d1ck was just that massive haha). I can't remember having foreskin, I'm kinda glad that I don't have it (dunno why).
I've got a baby daughter, so ain't had to think about this. If I had a son, I think I would just let him be and if he wanted it done, he can make the choice when he's older.
I don't think male circumcision is a particularly evil thing (the stuff done to women is f**ked up though). But, in my opinion, if you can leave the body alone then leave it alone. Start your own tradition of letting your boy decide.
I had this done when I was about 4, coz it was too tight (though I'd say my d1ck was just that massive haha). I can't remember having foreskin, I'm kinda glad that I don't have it (dunno why).
I've got a baby daughter, so ain't had to think about this. If I had a son, I think I would just let him be and if he wanted it done, he can make the choice when he's older.
I don't think male circumcision is a particularly evil thing (the stuff done to women is f**ked up though). But, in my opinion, if you can leave the body alone then leave it alone. Start your own tradition of letting your boy decide.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
mate, my friend, buddy buddy..please dont take this rant as an attack but more something that stirs my gut from personal experience and experiences told to me all my life by others as i have grown up. i can understand that you believe your point and looking at it abstractly ....i could maaaaaybe understand? maaybe?
but..
this first part is complete rubbish IMO and only gets churned out for support on people views about how to change things from a position of someone that has no clue about what that type of life is like. you think slavery and racism and all that it is tied to that can be tucked away as cultural relativism? Even extreme.... that goes beyond cultural relativism and right down into something i cant even put into words...utter abhorent behaviour that doesnt come about simply because of cultural differences but rather a deep seeded belief, hatred, and ignorance on another living person.
you think culture is the reason why millions of people, yes people, get butchered and discarded , segregated from families and all manner of atrocities done to them that you wouldn't even do on an animal...you actually believe that is down to a case of the extreme cultural relativism....something that you can link to like going to the pub to watch football on sunday
but to be honest it doesnt surprise me that an intellectual with no real understanding of a subject thinks they can talk about a subject and simplify it right down to a conceptual base and then link it to more trivial things and say "well hey..there was slavery ...it got removed...so why not this...its comes from the saame thing"
have to laugh at that the issue between circumcision and the complete thuggery on a race is the same thing
you make a lot of good points.... except this one
yeah, extremists and people that are on the receiving end of 3rd world hardships, but again i personally dont think they understand that even though they may see things as global conspiracy at least what they deem or IMO wrongly perceive as atrocities is done in their face with no recourse in the name of GHod , country and race...
i can but only those that i think would invoke enough of a stir in my soul. i think of change and i think of small change and i think of social change on an entire gender or kids that dont have their lives mapped out for them even when they tell someone they dont want to do something (i see the irony in this last comment but still)
yes, i can see your point here and its really the only point here that you have that i think is by far the strongest. i just dont think its blood thirsty abusive carnage that you would like it to be in order to champion the cause....like a black woman gang raped for sport because its what her kind deserve...how do you even compare the two? i mean really\?
but one would think that coming from you there are no benefits and people get it done just because they can.
The potential risks are huge, the operation itself has low risk percentage and the benefits are life lasting.....its the possible downside that makes the procedure unwarranted...its not a high risk procedure in itself
but was that your intention though? to inslut me? i didnt think it was hence i didnt take it as an insult? get it? if you were intentionally trying to insult me then thats a different thing all together :lol:
tell me one thing culture plays a part for in your life that you feel you might be shackled to, something worthwhile...or even not worthwhile seeing as i dont think circumcision warrants a new world order type deal. I dont see it with you....sounds more like you have complete freedom to do as you please and no one would really care as much
i cant see what that is from here, i'll double back after
yes , same point of choice.
i do live here but my future will hold some back a forth...he wont grow up here completely, and he will be part raised back home
i dont know that much about it unfortunately , but which change in Yugoslavia are you talking about, is it a big change that affects people right to life and freedom like you linked this with slavery for instance? As in the social realist evolution to what we have now?
I honestly dont know mate which you mean
It may do...i can say that in the next 100 years based on how the world is split in fortune and industry and secret ownership...i dont envisage this happening
i thought it might, would i be right to say that change came by the sword and its leaders at a time when it suited their needs? Or when the majority finally agreed upon something, and felt that force was the way forward
so you consider your region to be in the dark ages too in that matter then?
is circumcision common in your country? would you say its part of male culture
yeah i dont believe the bit in bold coming from my experience.
i also dont think that its automatically seen as honest just because some who thinks they operate with blank slate in most things immediately relating to them use pure logic to rationalise things. I thinks its looking at the matter at hand taking away inexplicable and non quantifiable variables and debating on what can be seen touched and measured. im not sure if that makes it "honestr"
the bit in italics is generalistion and i can confirm isnt nearly always as true as that statement makes out, though it does happen quite a bit and for the reason you claim
it requires a lot of bravery and sacrifice depending on the society one comes from...even a society within an accepting culture can be tough, yes i think i can agree on that part to do with people not believing in amongst those that are deep seeded believers in something that almost completely defines their existence
and what if people with enlightenment still come to a conclusion you dont agree with?
mate, my friend, buddy buddy..please dont take this rant as an attack but more something that stirs my gut from personal experience and experiences told to me all my life by others as i have grown up. i can understand that you believe your point and looking at it abstractly ....i could maaaaaybe understand? maaybe?
but..
this first part is complete rubbish IMO and only gets churned out for support on people views about how to change things from a position of someone that has no clue about what that type of life is like. you think slavery and racism and all that it is tied to that can be tucked away as cultural relativism? Even extreme.... that goes beyond cultural relativism and right down into something i cant even put into words...utter abhorent behaviour that doesnt come about simply because of cultural differences but rather a deep seeded belief, hatred, and ignorance on another living person.
you think culture is the reason why millions of people, yes people, get butchered and discarded , segregated from families and all manner of atrocities done to them that you wouldn't even do on an animal...you actually believe that is down to a case of the extreme cultural relativism....something that you can link to like going to the pub to watch football on sunday
but to be honest it doesnt surprise me that an intellectual with no real understanding of a subject thinks they can talk about a subject and simplify it right down to a conceptual base and then link it to more trivial things and say "well hey..there was slavery ...it got removed...so why not this...its comes from the saame thing"
have to laugh at that the issue between circumcision and the complete thuggery on a race is the same thing
you make a lot of good points.... except this one
yeah, extremists and people that are on the receiving end of 3rd world hardships, but again i personally dont think they understand that even though they may see things as global conspiracy at least what they deem or IMO wrongly perceive as atrocities is done in their face with no recourse in the name of GHod , country and race...
i can but only those that i think would invoke enough of a stir in my soul. i think of change and i think of small change and i think of social change on an entire gender or kids that dont have their lives mapped out for them even when they tell someone they dont want to do something (i see the irony in this last comment but still)
yes, i can see your point here and its really the only point here that you have that i think is by far the strongest. i just dont think its blood thirsty abusive carnage that you would like it to be in order to champion the cause....like a black woman gang raped for sport because its what her kind deserve...how do you even compare the two? i mean really\?
but one would think that coming from you there are no benefits and people get it done just because they can.
The potential risks are huge, the operation itself has low risk percentage and the benefits are life lasting.....its the possible downside that makes the procedure unwarranted...its not a high risk procedure in itself
but was that your intention though? to inslut me? i didnt think it was hence i didnt take it as an insult? get it? if you were intentionally trying to insult me then thats a different thing all together :lol:
tell me one thing culture plays a part for in your life that you feel you might be shackled to, something worthwhile...or even not worthwhile seeing as i dont think circumcision warrants a new world order type deal. I dont see it with you....sounds more like you have complete freedom to do as you please and no one would really care as much
i cant see what that is from here, i'll double back after
yes , same point of choice.
i do live here but my future will hold some back a forth...he wont grow up here completely, and he will be part raised back home
i dont know that much about it unfortunately , but which change in Yugoslavia are you talking about, is it a big change that affects people right to life and freedom like you linked this with slavery for instance? As in the social realist evolution to what we have now?
I honestly dont know mate which you mean
It may do...i can say that in the next 100 years based on how the world is split in fortune and industry and secret ownership...i dont envisage this happening
i thought it might, would i be right to say that change came by the sword and its leaders at a time when it suited their needs? Or when the majority finally agreed upon something, and felt that force was the way forward
so you consider your region to be in the dark ages too in that matter then?
is circumcision common in your country? would you say its part of male culture
yeah i dont believe the bit in bold coming from my experience.
i also dont think that its automatically seen as honest just because some who thinks they operate with blank slate in most things immediately relating to them use pure logic to rationalise things. I thinks its looking at the matter at hand taking away inexplicable and non quantifiable variables and debating on what can be seen touched and measured. im not sure if that makes it "honestr"
the bit in italics is generalistion and i can confirm isnt nearly always as true as that statement makes out, though it does happen quite a bit and for the reason you claim
it requires a lot of bravery and sacrifice depending on the society one comes from...even a society within an accepting culture can be tough, yes i think i can agree on that part to do with people not believing in amongst those that are deep seeded believers in something that almost completely defines their existence
and what if people with enlightenment still come to a conclusion you dont agree with?
Last edited:
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
good post, cant argue with much and wouldnt even try to....as they are all good points
good post, cant argue with much and wouldnt even try to....as they are all good points
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
Also think about all the good things circumcision brings to women and society as a whole. Women are much happier( this is an undisputed fact), if a relationship is bad but the piece is good she will stay but if the piece is bad she will go. Hence less divorce, less broken relationships and less burden on the state. As one of the posters said earlier women will be thanking you in 20 years time. For a woman it's the difference between a fillet minion or a s£it pizza.
Also think about all the good things circumcision brings to women and society as a whole. Women are much happier( this is an undisputed fact), if a relationship is bad but the piece is good she will stay but if the piece is bad she will go. Hence less divorce, less broken relationships and less burden on the state. As one of the posters said earlier women will be thanking you in 20 years time. For a woman it's the difference between a fillet minion or a s£it pizza.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
Obviously I wasn't being clear enough.
You made an argument in support of your position that I thought sounded like a cultural relativistic argument. I argued against the position of cultural relativism based on a somewhat extreme, but valid, example. This wasn't to say that slavery and male circumcision are the same. Also it wasn't an attempt at explaining slavery and racism or simplifying those matters. It was an argument against the position of cultural relativism that you seemed to hold. The rest of what you say is stuff you read into what I said.
As a side note I truly enjoy discussing stuff with you, you seem like an honest and reflected person with a really good heart. As a piece of advice, take it or leave it, you'd do better if you didn't assume what other people have and haven't experienced, what they do and don't understand. I live in a country where I can openly present myself as a non-believer, an atheist, this is not the same as me living my life in some sheltered Beverley Hills gated community. (please ignore the generalization and assumptions here, I think you get my point).
So you don't agree with them, so there's no need for me to argue the case that social progress is possible. I retain my position that this is a valid argument against cultural relativism and against arguments from antiquity.
As another side note I wish you the best with raising your son. And I think he's lucky to grow up experiencing two different cultures first hand.
Alright. Imagine the situation in the former Yugoslavia, or Eastern Europe in general before the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you think people could imagine a change as the one we've seen. Perhaps some could, but I'm sure many couldn't. I mention Yugoslavia because of the attempted genocide that took place in the mid '90s that had to be stopped by NATO forces. That's an attempted genocide, in mainland Europe, less than a generation ago. Now you can there on a holiday, have a splendid time and feel perfectly safe. Similar changes compared to a decade earlier in other parts of Eastern Europe are also incredible. Imagine going to Poland in 1984, imagine going there now. That's in a generation, never mind 100 years.
Change came by the sword when we changed from the Norse to the Christian religion. Some leaders were defeated or died, others won. Changes to a more modern and enlightened society were less bloody on our side, but couldn't have happened without the bloodshed suffered in many other parts of the world. The kings of old were not always in favour of those changes.
Circumcision is not outlawed in Norway, although there is a small, but growing movement in that direction I believe. On the topic of circumcision of infants I think not having a law protecting children against it is pretty medieval, yes. It's not common, it's not part of the male culture. It's primarily done in smaller, religious, subcultures as far as I know.
Yeah, going way off topic on evidence supporting religious positions. Let's either agree to disagree, at least for this thread.
When I said "many people" I didn't mean a majority, but this is certainly the case for millions of people around the world and I think that constitutes "many people". I think we agree.
Then we have a common ground for discussion. If they reached that conclusion by evaluating evidence and by reason then there's a solid chance one of us could see our minds changed as a result of logic, reason or evaluation of evidence. Or we can have a discussion about the logic that lead to our diverging conclusions. Or we can have a discussion about the underlying fundamental human values that influenced our thinking.
"GHod said so" or "it's in this ancient text that I believe to be inspired by GHod so it must be true" are altogether different. You can reason someone out of a position they reached using reason, much harder to reason someone out of an opinion held dogmatically or as a result of faith.
Obviously I wasn't being clear enough.
You made an argument in support of your position that I thought sounded like a cultural relativistic argument. I argued against the position of cultural relativism based on a somewhat extreme, but valid, example. This wasn't to say that slavery and male circumcision are the same. Also it wasn't an attempt at explaining slavery and racism or simplifying those matters. It was an argument against the position of cultural relativism that you seemed to hold. The rest of what you say is stuff you read into what I said.
As a side note I truly enjoy discussing stuff with you, you seem like an honest and reflected person with a really good heart. As a piece of advice, take it or leave it, you'd do better if you didn't assume what other people have and haven't experienced, what they do and don't understand. I live in a country where I can openly present myself as a non-believer, an atheist, this is not the same as me living my life in some sheltered Beverley Hills gated community. (please ignore the generalization and assumptions here, I think you get my point).
So you don't agree with them, so there's no need for me to argue the case that social progress is possible. I retain my position that this is a valid argument against cultural relativism and against arguments from antiquity.
As another side note I wish you the best with raising your son. And I think he's lucky to grow up experiencing two different cultures first hand.
Alright. Imagine the situation in the former Yugoslavia, or Eastern Europe in general before the fall of the Soviet Union. Do you think people could imagine a change as the one we've seen. Perhaps some could, but I'm sure many couldn't. I mention Yugoslavia because of the attempted genocide that took place in the mid '90s that had to be stopped by NATO forces. That's an attempted genocide, in mainland Europe, less than a generation ago. Now you can there on a holiday, have a splendid time and feel perfectly safe. Similar changes compared to a decade earlier in other parts of Eastern Europe are also incredible. Imagine going to Poland in 1984, imagine going there now. That's in a generation, never mind 100 years.
Change came by the sword when we changed from the Norse to the Christian religion. Some leaders were defeated or died, others won. Changes to a more modern and enlightened society were less bloody on our side, but couldn't have happened without the bloodshed suffered in many other parts of the world. The kings of old were not always in favour of those changes.
Circumcision is not outlawed in Norway, although there is a small, but growing movement in that direction I believe. On the topic of circumcision of infants I think not having a law protecting children against it is pretty medieval, yes. It's not common, it's not part of the male culture. It's primarily done in smaller, religious, subcultures as far as I know.
Yeah, going way off topic on evidence supporting religious positions. Let's either agree to disagree, at least for this thread.
When I said "many people" I didn't mean a majority, but this is certainly the case for millions of people around the world and I think that constitutes "many people". I think we agree.
Then we have a common ground for discussion. If they reached that conclusion by evaluating evidence and by reason then there's a solid chance one of us could see our minds changed as a result of logic, reason or evaluation of evidence. Or we can have a discussion about the logic that lead to our diverging conclusions. Or we can have a discussion about the underlying fundamental human values that influenced our thinking.
"GHod said so" or "it's in this ancient text that I believe to be inspired by GHod so it must be true" are altogether different. You can reason someone out of a position they reached using reason, much harder to reason someone out of an opinion held dogmatically or as a result of faith.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
Also, african:
I never thought it likely that I would change your mind on this. But it seems that by the surprises you've seen in the reactions to your post and the thoughts you've had in responses to some of the points being raised you might have had your views moderated? At least there's a chance that when you're at one point someone young parents will listen to in your family and social circle you won't be the person saying "this is what we do", "this is our culture/religion, there's no choice", but perhaps you will be the person saying "there are positives and negatives, you have to look at the situation from both sides yourself".
This is often how generational moral progress is made. Then a generation or two down the line the original view seems unthinkable and is marginalized to smaller orthodox subcultures.
Spitshine: Not sure if serious?
Also, african:
I never thought it likely that I would change your mind on this. But it seems that by the surprises you've seen in the reactions to your post and the thoughts you've had in responses to some of the points being raised you might have had your views moderated? At least there's a chance that when you're at one point someone young parents will listen to in your family and social circle you won't be the person saying "this is what we do", "this is our culture/religion, there's no choice", but perhaps you will be the person saying "there are positives and negatives, you have to look at the situation from both sides yourself".
This is often how generational moral progress is made. Then a generation or two down the line the original view seems unthinkable and is marginalized to smaller orthodox subcultures.
Spitshine: Not sure if serious?
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
my views were always moderated to be honest, i never thought that this was THAT big of a deal..hence why i didnt get it done when he was like a week old (suffering with jaundice and they still wanted it done. LOL) ..i just sort of ignored it thinking at some point i woudl get it done. then i started worrying about the pain he would be feeling for heaven knows how long
but anyway, literature, constant pressure and talking to many that have had it done and that have performed it .....i'm gonna get it done to cut the story short. i admire people too that instill change though i always question the timing of change happening and the society for this to be possible tbh.
i cant fathom how people will invoke change on grand scale sometimes.......i will say that on this i wont be the guy that does it...hard enough dealing with my immediate family and pressures they are under and applying in my direction
they were always moderated -ish...but they have been more moderated by the points raised in conjunction with the reaction...i think the OVER reaction is just sparking my defenses more tbh
my views were always moderated to be honest, i never thought that this was THAT big of a deal..hence why i didnt get it done when he was like a week old (suffering with jaundice and they still wanted it done. LOL) ..i just sort of ignored it thinking at some point i woudl get it done. then i started worrying about the pain he would be feeling for heaven knows how long
but anyway, literature, constant pressure and talking to many that have had it done and that have performed it .....i'm gonna get it done to cut the story short. i admire people too that instill change though i always question the timing of change happening and the society for this to be possible tbh.
i cant fathom how people will invoke change on grand scale sometimes.......i will say that on this i wont be the guy that does it...hard enough dealing with my immediate family and pressures they are under and applying in my direction
they were always moderated -ish...but they have been more moderated by the points raised in conjunction with the reaction...i think the OVER reaction is just sparking my defenses more tbh
Kingdawson
Banned
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
My mate in uni got it done when he was 21/22. He converted to Islam so decided he had to have it done.....said they injected his stomach but the pain wasn't even that bad. In fact, the only pain he felt during the few weeks after the procedure, was when he had a boner.
My mate in uni got it done when he was 21/22. He converted to Islam so decided he had to have it done.....said they injected his stomach but the pain wasn't even that bad. In fact, the only pain he felt during the few weeks after the procedure, was when he had a boner.
Dorothy
Willem Korsten
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
Huge groups of people hate their neighbours so much that they regularly pop over to behead and *struggle cuddle* each other. Some cultures **** their kids, does it make it right ? In some places they **** animals, they sexually abuse the handicapped, they've done so since day dot but does this make it right? In some places they hurl live animals from church steeples because they've done it since day dot. Does this make it right? In other places they use religion and witchcraft (one and the same largely..) to murder, enslave, torture, mutilate and *struggle cuddle* people. They've done this since day dot, it's their culture. Does it make it right? The sooner people realise that religion is largely a crock of **** born out of superstition and nonsense, carefully manipulated over centuries to facilitate control, government and green the better the whole World will be. People won't be out mutilating their children hopefully.
The biggest most laughable irony of the whole thing is that most religions believe that we are created in GHod's* image, that as a creation we were perfect yet somehow they are now altering themselves in the name of GHod. Leave your kids alone and stop brainwashing them with the same vile nonsense you were brainwashed with. Think for yourselves and stop abusing the rights of your children.
wtf!!
So because i want this done and you dont agree with it i.e that the baby doesnt get a say that makes me a vile and deluded guy....oh and that i dont love my son. Nice....see i knew it wasnt just me that generalised
i can see what you mean though with the idea "cutting bits off" can be considered vile if you look at it like butchering another human being but do you think a parent wants to actively butcher their child? with no regards for the baby? as if they enjoy this
but back on the generalising thing...you do realise that you basically group a huge portion of races and continents into that, just because they get this done...as if that is the definitive measure / indicator of a person
Huge groups of people hate their neighbours so much that they regularly pop over to behead and *struggle cuddle* each other. Some cultures **** their kids, does it make it right ? In some places they **** animals, they sexually abuse the handicapped, they've done so since day dot but does this make it right? In some places they hurl live animals from church steeples because they've done it since day dot. Does this make it right? In other places they use religion and witchcraft (one and the same largely..) to murder, enslave, torture, mutilate and *struggle cuddle* people. They've done this since day dot, it's their culture. Does it make it right? The sooner people realise that religion is largely a crock of **** born out of superstition and nonsense, carefully manipulated over centuries to facilitate control, government and green the better the whole World will be. People won't be out mutilating their children hopefully.
The biggest most laughable irony of the whole thing is that most religions believe that we are created in GHod's* image, that as a creation we were perfect yet somehow they are now altering themselves in the name of GHod. Leave your kids alone and stop brainwashing them with the same vile nonsense you were brainwashed with. Think for yourselves and stop abusing the rights of your children.
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
which cultures are these? / Is this that you are referring to? I need to read up on it seeing as you are saying people are happy with all that....it could be a place ruled on complete fear by a strong power of superstition
I'd really be interested to know of these places....PM if you like but i think its a topic worth discussing. cause you've pretty much summarised the life of slavery and in some parts of your post some would say pagan worship.
which cultures are these? / Is this that you are referring to? I need to read up on it seeing as you are saying people are happy with all that....it could be a place ruled on complete fear by a strong power of superstition
I'd really be interested to know of these places....PM if you like but i think its a topic worth discussing. cause you've pretty much summarised the life of slavery and in some parts of your post some would say pagan worship.
Papercut
Jermaine Jenas
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
I'm sorry but this is an observation;
I'm actually surprised there haven't been more posts from our Jewish or Israeli posters in regards this thread.
We clearly have a few posters from these groups (I judge that from the 'Yiddo' related threads).
I particularly look forward to the hood versus hoodless benefits, etc from Statto :lol:
I'm sorry but this is an observation;
I'm actually surprised there haven't been more posts from our Jewish or Israeli posters in regards this thread.
We clearly have a few posters from these groups (I judge that from the 'Yiddo' related threads).
I particularly look forward to the hood versus hoodless benefits, etc from Statto :lol:
Fhtagn
Radek Cerny
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
I didn't mean you in person necessarily, it was written in affection and 'vile and deluded' may have been a bit harsh, and neither did I mean to imply that you don't love your son, so sorry about that.
I can understand that you're coming from a very different place than me, but I don't feel that it makes it any more right. It might not be as painful for a baby as for a grown man, but it's still cutting off a part of another persons body, insignificant part or not I just can't see how that is okay. Anyway, seems like most of the things that could have been said in this discussion has been said, so I'll leave it at that.
wtf!!
So because i want this done and you dont agree with it i.e that the baby doesnt get a say that makes me a vile and deluded guy....oh and that i dont love my son. Nice....see i knew it wasnt just me that generalised
i can see what you mean though with the idea "cutting bits off" can be considered vile if you look at it like butchering another human being but do you think a parent wants to actively butcher their child? with no regards for the baby? as if they enjoy this
but back on the generalising thing...you do realise that you basically group a huge portion of races and continents into that, just because they get this done...as if that is the definitive measure / indicator of a person
I didn't mean you in person necessarily, it was written in affection and 'vile and deluded' may have been a bit harsh, and neither did I mean to imply that you don't love your son, so sorry about that.
I can understand that you're coming from a very different place than me, but I don't feel that it makes it any more right. It might not be as painful for a baby as for a grown man, but it's still cutting off a part of another persons body, insignificant part or not I just can't see how that is okay. Anyway, seems like most of the things that could have been said in this discussion has been said, so I'll leave it at that.
Dorothy
Willem Korsten
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
Slavery as we know has occurred since time began. There is no difference between pagan worship and any other form of worship. It is like one religious group referring to another as a 'cult'. They are entirely the same thing. It just so happens that different tribes had different beliefs all created out of superstition and an un-evolved understanding of what was around them. The organised religions/cults naturally looked to unite these tribes the world over to control them and have them do their bidding. The problem was that these ideas of control and manipulation are very 'human' and were had by people the world over. As they spread they encountered these different ways of thinking and where they couldn't convince them to follow them they killed or enslaved them (in GHod's name obviously..)
As another poster rightfully pointed out the sacrificial nature of chopping the tip of someone's **** off was not done for hygiene, for sensation or any other nonsense it was done to control, to wield power over people by making them serve 'GHod' (*ie their masters). The justification you see in modern times is quite simply an attempt to re-write history and somehow lessen what is a medieval practice of butchery. My perhaps shocking parallels are maybe extreme but all demonstrate other barbaric acts that can easily be attributed to culture, upbringing, religious duty etc.
Good riddance to it all because while people bicker and fight over it our very existence grows bleaker year by year as the same failings of greed and control ruin our environment. Don't chop your child's foreskin off, respect him enough to present the choice to him in a changing world when he is old enough to decide for himself. Circumcision varies the world over (it's tribal just like sticking bones through your lips, scarring your skin, tattooing etc) and in many tribes it is part of a passage into adulthood to show bravery.
Slavery as we know has occurred since time began. There is no difference between pagan worship and any other form of worship. It is like one religious group referring to another as a 'cult'. They are entirely the same thing. It just so happens that different tribes had different beliefs all created out of superstition and an un-evolved understanding of what was around them. The organised religions/cults naturally looked to unite these tribes the world over to control them and have them do their bidding. The problem was that these ideas of control and manipulation are very 'human' and were had by people the world over. As they spread they encountered these different ways of thinking and where they couldn't convince them to follow them they killed or enslaved them (in GHod's name obviously..)
As another poster rightfully pointed out the sacrificial nature of chopping the tip of someone's **** off was not done for hygiene, for sensation or any other nonsense it was done to control, to wield power over people by making them serve 'GHod' (*ie their masters). The justification you see in modern times is quite simply an attempt to re-write history and somehow lessen what is a medieval practice of butchery. My perhaps shocking parallels are maybe extreme but all demonstrate other barbaric acts that can easily be attributed to culture, upbringing, religious duty etc.
Good riddance to it all because while people bicker and fight over it our very existence grows bleaker year by year as the same failings of greed and control ruin our environment. Don't chop your child's foreskin off, respect him enough to present the choice to him in a changing world when he is old enough to decide for himself. Circumcision varies the world over (it's tribal just like sticking bones through your lips, scarring your skin, tattooing etc) and in many tribes it is part of a passage into adulthood to show bravery.
Dayo
Chris Armstrong
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
I suppose afterwards when you were singing "can't touch this" it was never more appropriate.
thfcsteff
George Hunt
Re: INfant circumcision. The best one
…I read that line…and looked at AVB's cheeky grin in your avatar…and I thought, 'this geezer would be a great laugh to have a pint with'…quality!
…I read that line…and looked at AVB's cheeky grin in your avatar…and I thought, 'this geezer would be a great laugh to have a pint with'…quality!