Cheating/football

[Modric THFC]

I don't think we should accept it. I'm with metalgear on this. So much of the poor behaviour could be eradicated practically overnight with the appropriate use of technology. FIFA are an old boys club that don't like change. Just look at the misogynistic dinosaur that runs the show and it is obvious exactly what tone is set within the organisation. Other sports have embraced technology but football has decided to embrace money, as far as I can see. Even something as simple as goal-line technology, which would have an almost negligible effect on the game, has still not been introduced.

I had a real WTF moment recently at my 4 years old mini-league football thing he does where one of the kids dived and started rolling around holding his leg groaning. FFS he was 4 years old!! This is not what we should accept. Redraw the line and take it from there.

FIFA will be delighted remember their anti goal line technology argument that

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/organisation/president/presidentcolumn/newsid=1179851/index.html
"The universality of the game: one of the main objectives of FIFA is to protect the universality of the game of association football. This means that the game must be played in the same way no matter where you are in the world. If you are coaching a group of teenagers in any small town around the world, they will be playing with the same rules as the professional players they see on TV."

 

[Rorschach]

FIFA will be delighted remember their anti goal line technology argument that

http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/organisation/president/presidentcolumn/newsid=1179851/index.html
"The universality of the game: one of the main objectives of FIFA is to protect the universality of the game of association football. This means that the game must be played in the same way no matter where you are in the world. If you are coaching a group of teenagers in any small town around the world, they will be playing with the same rules as the professional players they see on TV."

No need to change the rules, just the way they are enforced. It's already happening when you think about it with extra officials, etc. You'b be lucky to have one official let alone six down the park on a Sunday.

 

[Robbo]

I love the idea, but the problem is its so engrained in players, they dont even think about it, they feel something and they go down as a reaction. The top teams in football all have a majority of "cheats" or players who are "professional" enough to get an opposition player a red card for nothing. I think that we are so far gone the solution is more how we deal with it as fans as the game will not change. We have to accept this is football and its not going to change any time soon. The question is can you love a game, not just Spurs, where this is the reality.

I could not disagree more. Should we just accept cheating because "everyone" dives and cheats? Would you then allow doping in Tour the France because "everyone" is using performance enhancing drugs?

Most players will adapt to new rules - just like goalkeepers had to adapt to the back pass rule. Those who can't adapt, will suffer the consequences, and I say good riddance, because players who can't accept that diving and cheating is a punishable offence in football, have no place in the game.

Yes, there will be complaints, there will be anger, there will be frustration and there will be a mass of red cards and interviews with players and managers. For a while. Then players will start to adapt, managers will accept that these are the rules, and there will be less and less cheating as teams and players understand that there isn't anything to gain from cheating and diving. On the contrary, the team as a whole will suffer from having divers in the team.

A couple of seasons of this, and we'll see considerably less cheating in the beautiful game. Someone will suffer, but I'd rather it is a handful of consistent cheaters than a whole world of football fans having to endure these ****s rolling around like they've been shot on a regular basis.

 

[PochettinoPochettinoPochettino]

Thing is if we have retrospective punishment Bale would be out for half the season....

 

[braineclipse]

The Serie A has already started handing out retroactive bans, easy to say "too little too late" when talking about that league and attempting to clean up football, but it's a step in the right direction and shows some intent.

Would be nice to see FIFA or UEFA make a move towards this, but nothing wrong with it being implemented on a league level.

Until something is done by some of the associations I have mixed feelings about Spurs players diving. If other clubs are doing it and thus gaining an unfair advantage over us it could cost us some real success to try to play fair (not saying that we are).

Would be interesting to know if people would rather see us play fair and miss out on CL football or be more cynical and qualify. For me the cynical side of that argument seems to be winning, perhaps not a good thing.

 

[Neymar]

I’m going to offer the argument given from the opposite side in this “diving debate”.

In my opinion there seems to be a very hypocritical view on diving, particular from within England (fans and pundits alike). I’ll try to explain why I think this.

Clearly, diving/simulation etc is against the rules/laws of football and as such, can be labelled as “cheating”. However, what many people fail to realise is that literally 100% of players, pros and amateurs cheat on a game to game basis. Players at all levels deliberately obstruct, shirt pull, put a hand on an oppositions shoulder when they are dribbling etc etc. Interestingly though, these acts (of “game intelligence”) are generally accepted as “part of the game”.

What I fail to understand is how this is really any different to diving. There’s literally nothing that differentiates diving from the hundreds of minor shirt pulls that you see in every game.

- Both are deliberate, therefore dishonest
- Both aim to gain an advantage for their teams unlawfully
- Both aim to deny an opposition unlawfully


What makes the hatred of diving even worse is that people then assign negative moral values towards this behaviour, when in reality they are doing the same thing.

I personally think the “English” detest towards diving comes from the traditional roots through which football developed here. Ie. It’s a working class sport where factory workers etc would play on the weekends during the late 19th century. This demographic would value attributes such as strength and therefore behaviour such as diving would have been viewed shamefully, whereas putting in a hard tackle, showing physical strength etc would have been viewed positively.

Conversely, in other parts of the world ie. South America, football may have had different origins and therefore other skills may be more valued.

To conclude, I don’t think that there is anything wrong with encouraging retrospective punishments for diving, however, there should also then be retrospective punishment for almost everything else, if we are to avoid be hypocrites.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Contact - including little shirt pulls, accidental taps to ankles should be legal - the level of foul needed for a ref to blow should go back to the mid 80's level.

Players have too much protection - only a foul if it is enough to make you go down.

 

[Spursalot]

Contact - including little shirt pulls, accidental taps to ankles should be legal - the level of foul needed for a ref to blow should go back to the mid 80's level.

Players have too much protection - only a foul if it is enough to make you go down.

But the amount of contact it takes to make people go down differs a lot. You are saying what could be a foul on a smaller players such as Lennon, should be different from what should be a foul on a Benteke or a Lukaku. For example a Bale at high speed will not take much to take down.


How do you know what an 'accidental' tap to an ankle is? If it's done smoothly enough, a purposeful tap to an ankle can look accidental. It's in the same league as diving really.



Cheating in sport is no different to breaking laws in real life. If people think the reward is worth the risk, they will do it. The threat of retrospective bans would increase the risk, and should in theory decrease the number of people who attempt it. However you will be relying on the FA to decide who is and who is not guilty based on video replays, retrospective action is an area in which nobody has any confidence in them.

 

[Neymar]

Contact - including little shirt pulls, accidental taps to ankles should be legal - the level of foul needed for a ref to blow should go back to the mid 80's level.

Players have too much protection - only a foul if it is enough to make you go down.

Many people will disagree with this, me included.

If this was how the rules were to be enforced, you would be allowing defenders to constantly niggle, grab, pull the likes to bale, suarez etc when they are bearing down on goal. Although the level of contact may not be enough to bring the striker down, it will definitely hinder the chances of scoring, through (in my opinion) non footballing methods.

 

[braineclipse]

Contact - including little shirt pulls, accidental taps to ankles should be legal - the level of foul needed for a ref to blow should go back to the mid 80's level.

Players have too much protection - only a foul if it is enough to make you go down.

Seems like a ridiculous idea to me.

 

[Joesh]

I think we have some good solutions here but like all things you get some common sense answers from joe public, but then you go into the politics/money of football where the rich clubs have so much power and sponsors etc not wanting their players labelled in such a way. Its strange that football takes up other campaigns like anti-racism but refuses to deal with football topics like technology or cheating.

It was good point to mention shirt pulling etc. which for set pieces/corners is becoming a similiar joke.

 

[Joesh]

Many people will disagree with this, me included.

If this was how the rules were to be enforced, you would be allowing defenders to constantly niggle, grab, pull the likes to bale, suarez etc when they are bearing down on goal. Although the level of contact may not be enough to bring the striker down, it will definitely hinder the chances of scoring, through (in my opinion) non footballing methods.

I would agree with Neymar here. Its a balancing act here though, I dont want a game where the "Charlie Adams" breaks a player to show how committed he is but equally I dont want a game where a dubious/dive peno decides the outcome of an otherwise competitive game. The problem is that this needs to be tackled by football as a whole, like all problems, you cant have a half solution.

Financial fair play, Cheating, Racism - huge problems but is the required power behind dealing with these huge issues there. Despite a global recession football is supposodly unaffected, with higher wages for players, managers and organisations, is there a hunger to stop the madness and listen to the common fan and deal with these issues or will they wait until the breaking point where ticket prices and these issues drive fans away.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

It really annoys me to see any player behave like that. I know that kids are likely to copy this sort of thing as they see their heros doing it. I played park football in the 60/70's and never saw happen. I once played in a game where a player in our team pulled his hamstring but drove us home after the game before going to the hospital and another time in training a bloke broke his leg, went for a drink after training and went to work the next day before realising the damage he has done. But cheating is the norm in all walks of life today.

 

[metalgear]

if retrospective punishment is introduced, i'd like to see a strong stance against professional fouls (e.g. elbowing and shirt pulling) and reckless tackles.
and you don't need contact to be sure of guilt.