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Champions League 2014/15
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Yeah. Not a huge difference in the greater scheme of things. Greater step down from City to Bayern and Dortmund than up to Real and Barca. Obviously that kind of money plays a part, but it's only a rather small portion of why the top English teams aren't successful imo.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Barca and Real really are taking the tinkle.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Neville is spot on again.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...per-agents-taking-our-top-clubs-for-mugs.html
Gary Neville: We must arrest this decline in our game and stop the super-agents taking our top clubs for mugs
This Sunday is a huge day in football with historically the biggest game in England between Liverpool and Manchester United and the Clasico matching the best in Spain. Setting out the four starting XIs, you would be hard pushed to get one outfield player from the Liverpool-Man Utd game into the Barcelona-Real Madrid match that evening.
Which is a sad indictment. When you tot up the money invested by Liverpool and Manchester United, spending power is not the chief cause of the Premier League’s slide in Europe, even if the Real Madrid and Barcelona attacking trios are so superior. Karim Benzema, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale on one hand, and Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez and Neymar on the other.
I came out of the Barcelona-Emirates Marketing Project game thinking that Premier League clubs can’t go on like this. At the airport, City fans asked – “Were we that bad, or were Barcelona that good?” The answer was: “both.”
City are a good side. They have won two of the last three Premier League titles. Yet, when we line up our clubs in a discussion about top-class football, we are way below the peak. Only Chelsea are better-equipped to win in Europe than they showed by going out to Paris Saint-Germain.
Being in Barcelona offered a new experience for me. On one level It was magical, and here’s why.
Twenty-five minutes in, I remember saying: Emirates Marketing Project are holding their own. Not playing brilliantly or controlling the game, but managing Barcelona. For the next 20 minutes I was taken to a place I had never been, certainly as a commentator.
Watching games I always think analytically. How a threat can be dealt with or a change made; how a team can win. I’m always registering the mood; whether one defence is on top, or an interesting duel is developing in midfield. For 20 minutes in Barcelona, though, I felt I was back in a sweet shop as a kid.
I’ll go further and say I’ve never felt that way in a football stadium. I’m referring to the 20 minutes Messi produced before half-time, which were out of this world. In the commentary box I exhausted my vocabulary of descriptive terms, even using the word ‘barbaric.’ It was certainly scandalous. Special. I just found myself unable to focus on the more detailed aspects of the game.
Messi made all my usual calculations irrelevant. In that moment I was pulled away from thinking about City’s defensive deficiencies, the space that was opening up in midfield, the fact that Manuel Pellegrini’s team were not creating chances. I was taken to that utopia others talk about. And I have never been a football ‘purist’ who looks for the beauty in a game.
My interest has always been with the team performance, the collective effort, and not letting one individual dominate 11 opponents. I always believed there was a way to stop someone. An answer.
Sure, in my playing days we made special plans for exceptional players. We made them for Zinedine Zidane or Thierry Henry. Or Cristiano Ronaldo for Portugal. But for 20 minutes before half time in Barcelona it felt as if there was no answer. You were watching something beyond superlatives. An incredible passage of play.
As Messi took City apart, though, we were witnessing the demise of English football in Europe this season, and my thoughts soon turned to that. It almost needed City to lose 5-0 to force us to face our problems.
In this round of 16 I watched the Arsenal-Monaco home leg, the Chelsea-PSG game and Barcelona v Emirates Marketing Project. In those games I saw only five English outfield players. So we have arrived at a position where an enormous amount of money is being spent in the Premier League to accumulate players - yet no-one is happy, because the clubs are not getting value for their buck, and the home production line is falling short.
Watching Premier League games I’m still enthused, still entertained, but at times I despair when I judge them alongside the Champions League matches I see midweek. Most elite European teams are better organized and physically better – which is a scary one – and are certainly better technically.
We talk about intensity and aggression and toughness in English football. Stop saying English football is ‘tough.’ Jordi Alba, the Barcelona left-back, is as aggressive as hell. He would tackle anything. So would Javier Mascherano. We see Thiago Silva and David Luiz smashing balls into the net with their heads. Look at Barcelona’s determination to win the ball back. We must stop hiding behind the idea of our ‘toughness’.
In periods of uncertainty in games, too, the players at those European clubs are far better at adapting. Tottenham, last Sunday against Manchester United, had a problem with Marouane Fellaini, and where Ashley Young was playing, but there was no player adaptability on the pitch itself. Too often players have to wait until half-time when the coaches can get hold of them.
Player thinking is really poor. Problem solving is really poor. I have been appalled in the last season or two by some of the defending, collectively. In that respect Brendan Rodgers deserves great respect for reversing what was a negative trend towards poor defending by Liverpool. Even last season, when they were challenging for the title.
Now, they have much better resilience and defensive organization. Across the board, though, it is nowhere near good enough. Andres Iniesta was constantly taking the ball off City players. Barcelona’s instinct is – we have to win the ball back as soon as we lose it.
Sounds simple, but we are caught between having players who think they are too good to go and retrieve possession, and those who think just getting behind the ball is sufficient. Three or four yards off an opponent is not close enough. It’s a physical issue, a mentality issue and, with some, a question of willingness and desire.
Messi was probably unstoppable on Wednesday night, but I did wonder whether there was something those Emirates Marketing Project players might have tried as a destroying tactic. I was thinking – slow the game down, break it up, think on your feet. But playing in the Premier League is like being on the Waltzer. You’re spinning around, it’s exciting, but you come off dizzy, and it’s hard to know whether what you just saw meant anything.
Liverpool v Man Utd will be full of entertainment, the fans will be up for it, the atmosphere will be great, it will capture our imagination. Relate it to the Clasico later in the day, though, and it will come a distant second, in terms of the technical and tactical aspects.
Is this cyclical or a pattern? I hope it’s only a phase. Yet recruitment is becoming a huge topic of concern for English clubs. The modern game is controlled by the big overseas agents. There are no prominent English ones I can think of. We are being used as mugs by middle-men who will happily ship over to England the talent they want to send while the prime stock is pushed into other clubs where they have better connections, and where the players would prefer to go.
We are not dominating the super-agent business – and I do detect a link. Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United have been principled, historically, in their use of agents, but these days we are having to pay high, high prices for players who left the selling club reluctantly. Mesut Ozil and Angel di Maria are examples.
Meanwhile we are forking out very good money for average, and extravagant money for good. But we’re still not getting the true elite. And if we do get them, they end up wanting to go back to Barcelona or Real Madrid.
The Premier League will not be happy with these trends. Nor will Sheikh Mansour at Emirates Marketing Project, or Arsenal’s owners. There are probably a lot of unhappy people out there. We have to come out of this.
When the national team is not getting to the later phases of tournaments, and Premier League clubs are going out in the last 16 of the Champions League and the Europa League (Everton), it is incredibly damaging to our redibility in world football, and we have to arrest it quickly. It requires a joint-effort on all the issues I have mentioned – and more.
What we are left with, and what makes me so excited about being at Anfield on Sunday, is entertainment. Our last big card is entertainment, and we play it brilliantly, but we need much more than that beyond these shores.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...per-agents-taking-our-top-clubs-for-mugs.html
Gary Neville: We must arrest this decline in our game and stop the super-agents taking our top clubs for mugs
This Sunday is a huge day in football with historically the biggest game in England between Liverpool and Manchester United and the Clasico matching the best in Spain. Setting out the four starting XIs, you would be hard pushed to get one outfield player from the Liverpool-Man Utd game into the Barcelona-Real Madrid match that evening.
Which is a sad indictment. When you tot up the money invested by Liverpool and Manchester United, spending power is not the chief cause of the Premier League’s slide in Europe, even if the Real Madrid and Barcelona attacking trios are so superior. Karim Benzema, Cristiano Ronaldo and Gareth Bale on one hand, and Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez and Neymar on the other.
I came out of the Barcelona-Emirates Marketing Project game thinking that Premier League clubs can’t go on like this. At the airport, City fans asked – “Were we that bad, or were Barcelona that good?” The answer was: “both.”
City are a good side. They have won two of the last three Premier League titles. Yet, when we line up our clubs in a discussion about top-class football, we are way below the peak. Only Chelsea are better-equipped to win in Europe than they showed by going out to Paris Saint-Germain.
Being in Barcelona offered a new experience for me. On one level It was magical, and here’s why.
Twenty-five minutes in, I remember saying: Emirates Marketing Project are holding their own. Not playing brilliantly or controlling the game, but managing Barcelona. For the next 20 minutes I was taken to a place I had never been, certainly as a commentator.
Watching games I always think analytically. How a threat can be dealt with or a change made; how a team can win. I’m always registering the mood; whether one defence is on top, or an interesting duel is developing in midfield. For 20 minutes in Barcelona, though, I felt I was back in a sweet shop as a kid.
I’ll go further and say I’ve never felt that way in a football stadium. I’m referring to the 20 minutes Messi produced before half-time, which were out of this world. In the commentary box I exhausted my vocabulary of descriptive terms, even using the word ‘barbaric.’ It was certainly scandalous. Special. I just found myself unable to focus on the more detailed aspects of the game.
Messi made all my usual calculations irrelevant. In that moment I was pulled away from thinking about City’s defensive deficiencies, the space that was opening up in midfield, the fact that Manuel Pellegrini’s team were not creating chances. I was taken to that utopia others talk about. And I have never been a football ‘purist’ who looks for the beauty in a game.
My interest has always been with the team performance, the collective effort, and not letting one individual dominate 11 opponents. I always believed there was a way to stop someone. An answer.
Sure, in my playing days we made special plans for exceptional players. We made them for Zinedine Zidane or Thierry Henry. Or Cristiano Ronaldo for Portugal. But for 20 minutes before half time in Barcelona it felt as if there was no answer. You were watching something beyond superlatives. An incredible passage of play.
As Messi took City apart, though, we were witnessing the demise of English football in Europe this season, and my thoughts soon turned to that. It almost needed City to lose 5-0 to force us to face our problems.
In this round of 16 I watched the Arsenal-Monaco home leg, the Chelsea-PSG game and Barcelona v Emirates Marketing Project. In those games I saw only five English outfield players. So we have arrived at a position where an enormous amount of money is being spent in the Premier League to accumulate players - yet no-one is happy, because the clubs are not getting value for their buck, and the home production line is falling short.
Watching Premier League games I’m still enthused, still entertained, but at times I despair when I judge them alongside the Champions League matches I see midweek. Most elite European teams are better organized and physically better – which is a scary one – and are certainly better technically.
We talk about intensity and aggression and toughness in English football. Stop saying English football is ‘tough.’ Jordi Alba, the Barcelona left-back, is as aggressive as hell. He would tackle anything. So would Javier Mascherano. We see Thiago Silva and David Luiz smashing balls into the net with their heads. Look at Barcelona’s determination to win the ball back. We must stop hiding behind the idea of our ‘toughness’.
In periods of uncertainty in games, too, the players at those European clubs are far better at adapting. Tottenham, last Sunday against Manchester United, had a problem with Marouane Fellaini, and where Ashley Young was playing, but there was no player adaptability on the pitch itself. Too often players have to wait until half-time when the coaches can get hold of them.
Player thinking is really poor. Problem solving is really poor. I have been appalled in the last season or two by some of the defending, collectively. In that respect Brendan Rodgers deserves great respect for reversing what was a negative trend towards poor defending by Liverpool. Even last season, when they were challenging for the title.
Now, they have much better resilience and defensive organization. Across the board, though, it is nowhere near good enough. Andres Iniesta was constantly taking the ball off City players. Barcelona’s instinct is – we have to win the ball back as soon as we lose it.
Sounds simple, but we are caught between having players who think they are too good to go and retrieve possession, and those who think just getting behind the ball is sufficient. Three or four yards off an opponent is not close enough. It’s a physical issue, a mentality issue and, with some, a question of willingness and desire.
Messi was probably unstoppable on Wednesday night, but I did wonder whether there was something those Emirates Marketing Project players might have tried as a destroying tactic. I was thinking – slow the game down, break it up, think on your feet. But playing in the Premier League is like being on the Waltzer. You’re spinning around, it’s exciting, but you come off dizzy, and it’s hard to know whether what you just saw meant anything.
Liverpool v Man Utd will be full of entertainment, the fans will be up for it, the atmosphere will be great, it will capture our imagination. Relate it to the Clasico later in the day, though, and it will come a distant second, in terms of the technical and tactical aspects.
Is this cyclical or a pattern? I hope it’s only a phase. Yet recruitment is becoming a huge topic of concern for English clubs. The modern game is controlled by the big overseas agents. There are no prominent English ones I can think of. We are being used as mugs by middle-men who will happily ship over to England the talent they want to send while the prime stock is pushed into other clubs where they have better connections, and where the players would prefer to go.
We are not dominating the super-agent business – and I do detect a link. Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United have been principled, historically, in their use of agents, but these days we are having to pay high, high prices for players who left the selling club reluctantly. Mesut Ozil and Angel di Maria are examples.
Meanwhile we are forking out very good money for average, and extravagant money for good. But we’re still not getting the true elite. And if we do get them, they end up wanting to go back to Barcelona or Real Madrid.
The Premier League will not be happy with these trends. Nor will Sheikh Mansour at Emirates Marketing Project, or Arsenal’s owners. There are probably a lot of unhappy people out there. We have to come out of this.
When the national team is not getting to the later phases of tournaments, and Premier League clubs are going out in the last 16 of the Champions League and the Europa League (Everton), it is incredibly damaging to our redibility in world football, and we have to arrest it quickly. It requires a joint-effort on all the issues I have mentioned – and more.
What we are left with, and what makes me so excited about being at Anfield on Sunday, is entertainment. Our last big card is entertainment, and we play it brilliantly, but we need much more than that beyond these shores.
I
indianspur
Guest
Excellent article from Neville.
clubs have only got themselves to blame for agents. firstly, they dont have to use them if they dont wish to do so. and also, if they paid all the players the maximum that they possibly could, then there would be no use for most agents. its because clubs try to pay players as little as they possibly can that agents exist in order to act in the best interest of the players.
I think Emirates Marketing Project would do alright from it tbh. theres just too many "casual" football fans who want to see the best players in the world.
Spurs7891
Jermaine Jenas
We got more TV money than ManU ? How is that possible ? Find it surprising considering the success and the alleged global fanbase ManU have had.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
So now the agents are to blame? Not for being money grabbing bastards only looking out for themselves mind you. But for their anti-English bias? Neville often brings some insight into situations, but this is just hogwash. Does he really think agents are favouring Barca, Real, Bayern or PSG because of nationality or a "club connection"? We're complaining about players lacking club connections, but Neville thinks there's loyalty motivating agents standing to make millions of pounds?
Dumbest thing I've seen from Neville in a long time I think. Fits very well into a "find someone to blame, someone to spacegoat" mentality though, so might just be that he's writing opinions to please the masses.
Great to see that he got a dig in aimed at us while he was at it. One of the few clubs near the top of English football with a production line starting to look half way decent and a plan to integrate those young players into the first team. The problem really is with the clubs currently in 5th or 6th fighting for a top 4 spot against the odds? Don't mention that Barca started 4 players that have come through their academy against City, and that this is actually a fairly low number for them. Whilst City since their influx of money has produced... not even a single player worthy of even a squad position?
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
I think it's just the phase of a cycle, historically the best of our CL clubs is united, they are rebuilding, that in itself isn't anything to worry about
arsenal are just being arsenal, this is pretty much where they always go out, again, nothing to worry about
chelsea are in season 2 of Mourinho, shift in system this season integrating a new focal point, they will be better next year, let's not forget they were knocked out by a team containing Zlatan as well, Ibra was always the heavy favorite to win the tie
that leaves city, in their defence, United dominated the PL for almost a decade before succeeding, there isn't anything staggering here for me, people will point at the money spent but ignore how far further they have had to come, they were in L2 not that long ago, (if you want to compare city's spend against others it should be over the last 30 years for an accurate comparison, not just since Mansour) the CL is a tricky beast and it's nigh on impossible to just walk in and be great from the off, despite all the money they have spent they still don't have that incredible talent that can win a game single handedly like Messi, Ronaldo or Bale, likewise they have never had a real top class coach in the dugout
for me there is myriad of reasons for the drop outs but I don't think it's one overriding factor or a weakness in the PL
arsenal are just being arsenal, this is pretty much where they always go out, again, nothing to worry about
chelsea are in season 2 of Mourinho, shift in system this season integrating a new focal point, they will be better next year, let's not forget they were knocked out by a team containing Zlatan as well, Ibra was always the heavy favorite to win the tie
that leaves city, in their defence, United dominated the PL for almost a decade before succeeding, there isn't anything staggering here for me, people will point at the money spent but ignore how far further they have had to come, they were in L2 not that long ago, (if you want to compare city's spend against others it should be over the last 30 years for an accurate comparison, not just since Mansour) the CL is a tricky beast and it's nigh on impossible to just walk in and be great from the off, despite all the money they have spent they still don't have that incredible talent that can win a game single handedly like Messi, Ronaldo or Bale, likewise they have never had a real top class coach in the dugout
for me there is myriad of reasons for the drop outs but I don't think it's one overriding factor or a weakness in the PL
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Agreed.
Also United have been decimated a bit through years of Glazers funneling money out of the footballing side of the club. The only real financial superpower in English football on par with Real, Barca and Bayern held back a lot.
The step up from domestic title winners to competing with Barca and Real when they're having good days is pretty large. Agree that City are still early in their "top club" development and Chelsea have lacked consistency for years. Mourinho might be able to set them right, but this too takes a bit of time.
The greatest lesson from Barca is the consistency and purpose of the club from the higher ups. Sure they've signed top class players like Suarez and Neymar, but United could have afforded that.
jaysea67
Erik Edman
In terms of the way Premier League broadcasting payments are distributed, a club's global appeal is irrelevant.
Differences between the amounts received by teams only arise from (i) their finishing position in the final PL table and (ii) the number of times they appear in PL matches that are broadcast live in the UK. Man Utd were on live UK TV once more than Spurs which earned them an extra £734k. That was more than offset by Tottenham finishing one place ahead of Man Utd - gaining an additional £1.24m.
jaysea67
Erik Edman
Details of the financial distribution for 2015-18 cycle of the CL & EL have been announced.
BBC reports: "Uefa increases Champions League & Europa League pot to £1.67bn
British clubs playing in the Champions League and Europa League from next season will receive a share of a 2.24bn euro (£1.67bn) prize pot.
Uefa is to increase funding by nearly a third from 1.66bn euro (£1.2bn).
The deal will also see money being distributed more evenly, with Europa League participants getting increased revenue in the qualifying rounds.
Uefa president Michel Platini said: "Uefa should work with associations and clubs to find the best solutions."
European money boost breakdown
32 Champions League group-stage clubs share £872m (up from £696m) from next term, equating to a guaranteed £8.7m entry payment (up from £6.3m)
48 Europa League group-stage clubs share £277m (up from £167m) from next term, equating to a guaranteed £1.7m (up from £945,000)"
Full details in the UEFA announcement here.
BBC reports: "Uefa increases Champions League & Europa League pot to £1.67bn
British clubs playing in the Champions League and Europa League from next season will receive a share of a 2.24bn euro (£1.67bn) prize pot.
Uefa is to increase funding by nearly a third from 1.66bn euro (£1.2bn).
The deal will also see money being distributed more evenly, with Europa League participants getting increased revenue in the qualifying rounds.
Uefa president Michel Platini said: "Uefa should work with associations and clubs to find the best solutions."
European money boost breakdown
32 Champions League group-stage clubs share £872m (up from £696m) from next term, equating to a guaranteed £8.7m entry payment (up from £6.3m)
48 Europa League group-stage clubs share £277m (up from £167m) from next term, equating to a guaranteed £1.7m (up from £945,000)"
Full details in the UEFA announcement here.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
You can just tell the ref is going to give everything to Real tonight.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
I swear Bale did an advert a few months where he talked about making "good decisions". Wearing an alice band with a dodgy barnet is clearly not one of them.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Surely a Barca, Bayern double is inevitable tonight?
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
There's an English team in the last 8 of the CL. Too bad it's the refs.