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Black Lives Matter

spitshine said:
wow that’s very harsh.

I think it would be beneficial if you would take some time out to reflect on your recent posts and revert back to this forum on Monday.

Taking some time out has a calming effect and can change our perspective on things, often resulting in a softer tone.
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This isn't a subject that calls for soft tones, particularly when issues are dismissed out of hand; the UK has no problem with racism, it was 100 years ago let's move on, I wasn't involved so why should I care, on and on, etc.

Sorry but my response to that will always be fudge off. Thank you for your input.
 
thfcsteff said:
Education is a first. The most instant thing is to develop an extra layer of police who are essentially trained community officers that work their specific beats and get to know their area. Make their uniforms less oppressive and authoritarian, de-tool them to very basic items, have them operate as a more low profile element who can readily intervene between regular police and civilians if necessary and be part of their communities as beat cops the rest of the time. But they need to be educated and smart when it comes to social work and overall communication.
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It's far simpler than that.

Just put body cams on them that they can't turn off.
 
thfcsteff said:
Not what I said. I said the likes of Amin.
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Yes and then said tactics learnt from the British empire, as if it would never have occurred to him by himself.
Amin was a cruel, sadistic bastard, not because he was taught that by someone else or because he was black, or an African or any other reason than because that's what he was.
There are people out there in world like that.
Sad but true.
 
nayenezgani said:
This isn't a subject that calls for soft tones, particularly when issues are dismissed out of hand; the UK has no problem with racism, it was 100 years ago let's move on, I wasn't involved so why should I care, on and on, etc.

Sorry but my response to that will always be fudge off. Thank you for your input.
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That’s also harsh.

As you’re saying people today are equally responsible for past misdemeanours and should be punished?
 
spitshine said:
That’s also harsh.

As you’re saying people today are equally responsible for past misdemeanours and should be punished?
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NO. How many times do I need to say it? Have you actually read the thread?

People today need to acknowledge the issues. Governments, monarchies and institutions that allowed these injustices to occur and fail to properly educate on or acknowledge them today need to take responsibility. It's not about punishment.

No one is born racist or prejudiced, it starts with education. Education and proper acknowledgement. That's what I've said from the start.
 
A tangible example? An apology. The Australian government under Kevin Rudd managed to put together a public, televised apology on behalf of previous government's to the Indigenous people that were massacred, stolen from their families and forced to assimilate into white culture. It may be token but it helps people start to heal.. As far as I know it's not something that's ever been done in the UK or the USA.

Another? Remove monuments to racism, several streets in Melbourne are named after men who 'discovered' the land, these people were involved in genocidal massacre of the Indigenous population in other parts of the country. Remove them and publicly acknowledge the removal. I'm sure these exist in the UK and they definitely do in the USA.

Speaking on Australia again, allow indigenous people to be involved in politics and decision making. It's their land. You may not think these issues relate to the UK, but it's systemic and all linked.

As I've said, I don't have all the answers but steps like this are the bare minimum in my mind and I'm not a black/indigenous person, so I can't imagine how they must feel having to live with these nods to colonisation and slaughter in their lives. Plus the ongoing, flow on effects they live with day to day.
 
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spitshine said:
That’s also harsh.

As you’re saying people today are equally responsible for past misdemeanours and should be punished?
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and forever it seems !!!
Literally ridiculous
I had to use the ignore button on 2 posters here who are doing my absolute nut in
 
thfcsteff said:
Sometimes a bucket is a bucket.
Chauvin had ample opportunities to remove his knee and self from Floyd. He did not. Floyd died. Second-degree murder is absolutely correct. I doubt Chauvin sat in his car as they went to the scene thinking about murdering Floyd, however he initiated a situation where he had a chance to disengage from an action leading to death and he simply continuer.
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That's not the Minnesota interpretation of the law. I posted the statute above and it clearly shows that this case does not fit the fact pattern required for that charge.

This is what worries me - that by bringing a charge that the prosecutor will know full well can't stick, are they ensuring he walks on purpose?

thfcsteff said:
The aiding and abetting does turn this into something else. One of the officers, Lake, did I believe question what was going on. Chauvin, the senior, basically told him to shut his mouth. I believe the officer questioning had a record of volunteering to help Somali youth. His life is in tatters because he didn't do enough. I think dismissal is fair but am not sure he can be accused of much more. Chauvin's partner on the other hand had a major role, especially as he probably had the closest opportunity to get Chauvin to disengage. I noted that his partner also has redacted disciplinary issues.
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Again, I posted the statute for you to read through. Simply not stopping a crime is not grounds for Aiding and Abetting. There has to be an action from the defendant that actively aids the commission of a crime. I don't see how this passes that.

thfcsteff said:
I believe -based on the indisputable facts we can agree on- that Chauvin is both psychotic and racist. I believe that he found himself in a moment where he was faced with a black man in a position of weakness. I believe he took full advantage of that moment and exercised personal judgement to ignore Floyd's pleas for help/that he could not breathe. He is in my view a murderous bastard.
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I certainly think he's violent and dangerous. I've yet to see anything to give me reason to suspect he's racist.
 
nayenezgani said:
How about training them properly? They just remove the body cams as things stand.
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They certainly need to. Minneapolis has a record of fast track appointments when numbers are low. That still won't solve the problem if the kind of people that are attracted to policing.
 
It's concerning that the autopsy report seems to have indicated that Floyd had traces of fentanyl and methamphetamines in his system.
That, coupled with the level of charges brought against the officer, may give unfortunate scope to muddy the waters when it comes to the burden of proof.
 
markysimmo said:
and forever it seems !!!
Literally ridiculous
I had to use the ignore button on 2 posters here who are doing my absolute nut in
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Try ignoring yourself you plum.. Typical racist sympathiser, bury your head in the sand and throw your toys out the pram.
 
scaramanga said:
I certainly think he's violent and dangerous. I've yet to see anything to give me reason to suspect he's racist.
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The latter bit is something I raised before
There isn’t anything that makes it clear he is racist. His previous includes shooting a white guy and also assaulting a lady
Everything is clear (including his previous record) he is a mental arsehole who shouldn’t have been given a point of power
The issue though is that the evidence and stats suggest that black people are more significantly picked up and singled out by the police - that’s a fact
There are other facts around deaths etc... that have been highlighted before
I do know of a case here in Bedford where a black guy was brain damaged in police custody and the police were at fault. It has been raised as a racist issue, which it may well have been (I don’t know the facts or evidence) but I do know one of the policemen involved was an Asian man. That doesn’t mean he or anyone else wasn’t being racist of course
 
nayenezgani said:
NO. How many times do I need to say it? Have you actually read the thread?

People today need to acknowledge the issues. Governments, monarchies and institutions that allowed these injustices to occur and fail to properly educate on or acknowledge them today need to take responsibility. It's not about punishment.

No one is born racist or prejudiced, it starts with education. Education and proper acknowledgement. That's what I've said from the start.
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That is exactly it. And from reading some of these posts, it's a bit defensive with "it was years ago, it wasn't my fault, let it go". Sorry, but people clearly do not understand they BENEFIT from the systemic and strucutual racism that was put in place in the past.

For example, history in British schools, we learn Tudors, we learn WW1 and 2. We learn the 'Industrial Revolution' of 1750-1900. But you don't learn about the British Empire much, bit strange no? Isn't it weird the single biggest factor in making the British Empire what it was (effectively funding the industrial revolution), stealing, killing, isn't taught in our schools? Germany teaches the holocaust? It's a requirement, they accepted their past mistakes.

UK nowhere near that. Cannot accept responsibility for past crimes, over 10M deaths in India during the British Raj, incredible no? We discuss the deaths at the hands of Nazi Germany and Idi Amin, but not Britain on other nations?

What about the 1919 Jallinwala Bagh Massacre? Has there EVER been an apology? No, so people wonder why it still gets brought up 100 years later, because governments, specifically the British have never apologised for their atrocities.

People here need to go read up on Operation Legacy - a British programme implemented in the Foreign Office to destroy their crimes against humanity. Far too many people here reading the Daily Mail and celebrating British 'History' without ever having actually read the full story.
 
Diamond Lights said:
That is exactly it. And from reading some of these posts, it's a bit defensive with "it was years ago, it wasn't my fault, let it go". Sorry, but people clearly do not understand they BENEFIT from the systemic and strucutual racism that was put in place in the past.

For example, history in British schools, we learn Tudors, we learn WW1 and 2. We learn the 'Industrial Revolution' of 1750-1900. But you don't learn about the British Empire much, bit strange no? Isn't it weird the single biggest factor in making the British Empire what it was (effectively funding the industrial revolution), stealing, killing, isn't taught in our schools? Germany teaches the holocaust? It's a requirement, they accepted their past mistakes.

UK nowhere near that. Cannot accept responsibility for past crimes, over 10M deaths in India during the British Raj, incredible no? We discuss the deaths at the hands of Nazi Germany and Idi Amin, but not Britain on other nations?

What about the 1919 Jallinwala Bagh Massacre? Has there EVER been an apology? No, so people wonder why it still gets bought up 100 years later, because governments, specifically the British have never apologised for their atrocities.

People here need to go read up on Operation Legacy - a British programme implemented in the Foreign Office to destroy their crimes against humanity. Far too many people here reading the Daily Mail and celebrating British 'History' without ever having actually read the full story.
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What kids typically learn is the Belgians, French, Spanish and Dutch were horrible, evil, barbaric slave traders.. We only participated because they did it first, oh and we weren't as brutal. Which is of course total flimflam.
 
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