Black Lives Matter

[scaramanga]

Plenty more issues than those two. It is a fudging mess from top to bottom.

I'd say their trial system is at least as robust as that in the UK - generally considered the gold standard around the world.

 

[Grays_1890]

No doubt police forces attract a minority of recuits who are twisted fuks. If you want power, are a sadists, or just hold prejudices, how many jobs can you do that allow you to exercise your perversion? Not many. The police force is quite unique.

Derek Chauvin the officer who kneeled on this poor guy for 11 minutes or whatever, had 17 misconduct charges against him.

To those that think the UK is a separate story, you are right and you are wrong. The UK is a world away thankfully, most of our police are fantastic, far better than most forces in Europe. But there are still issues. And there are some parallels.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/mar/14/policeman-punched-woman-uk-uncut-cs-gas

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-45940066

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-48907116

Black people are twice as likely to die in police custody in the UK than white people.
40% of the poorest UK households are black. 4% of the country are black.
50% of the UK prison population are black.

The U.K. Is a separate issues on many fronts and in my mind needs to be addressed separately to what goes on in the US.

The police force although not without its issues is to quote a Scare term the gold standard globally and its vastly unfair for people to make throw away comparisons like I have seen.

The police custody needs to be expanded. The majority are suicides another large area of death is intoxication. Of about over 250 deaths only 6 had force used on them that could have attributed to death but would have other factors like drugs which would highten the process.

Where the UK could tighten its self is the speed in which it identifies obvious mental illness and drugs use and apply medical help where needed, abuse of power is very low.

The last comparable incident was Duggan and that was a complex situation where he had a converted blanks gun and had been living with a major gangland top dog who had killed over 20 people and was known himself as a life criminal. Our force are not killing people for jumping a red light.

The rest of your post yeh there is societal issues that need development 100% but again I like to see us move forward to improve them than lump into a country like America.

 

[thfcsteff]

I have seen the video, in that sense I know as much as anyone can from watching it.

There's a really good reason why post mortems exist and are used to establish cause of death rather than videos on Twitter.

This video is a perfect example. Everyone using it to base their judgment here and on Twitter assumed the death was caused by not being able to breathe because of the pressure on his neck. Even the "decision for hire" coroner hired by the family tried to claim that. Yet the actual, real, independent evidence is that the cause of death was heart failure. Now it's likely that was caused by the police officer and his actions, but far less certain than asphyxiation would have been.

"Wait for the evidence" is not an extreme or indefensible stance to take. Unfortunately in the world of social media judgment and virtue signalling, it appears to be a rare one.

"The" video. Which video? There are several.

You're blinkered even beyond my belief if you genuinely believe that autopsies in these situations are not beyond politicization. You dismiss his "decision for hire" coroner (a man I presume has professional credentials and access far beyond your access) yet seem perfectly willing to accept a county employee's view on the matter despite the fact that there is a potential interest for the county in such a deduction.

I don't watch videos on twitter, much less use it. A medium for those with short-attention spans and little in the way of critical thinking when used as a primary source of any information.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html

 

[scaramanga]

"The" video. Which video? There are several.

You're blinkered even beyond my belief if you genuinely believe that autopsies in these situations are not beyond politicization. You dismiss his "decision for hire" coroner (a man I presume has professional credentials and access far beyond your access) yet seem perfectly willing to accept a county employee's view on the matter despite the fact that there is a potential interest for the county in such a deduction.

I don't watch videos on twitter, much less use it. A medium for those with short-attention spans and little in the way of critical thinking when used as a primary source of any information.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html

The decision for hire coroner once was a proper coroner, but he got sacked twice. Now he's just a talking head on TV who sells the answer people want if they have the money. You don't need to read very far to find a list of high profile cases where he's been picked to provide the answer required - OJ Simpson being the highest profile. You also don't have to look very hard to find people who are medical examiners and coroners criticising what he does to their profession. Also check his censure in the Phil Spector case.

I'd like a little more detail why you think the real, employed as a ME, ME would falsify information here. Their chain of command goes to the same people that sacked and brought murder charges against the policeman. They work for the county, and through them the state, not the police - for the very reason that concerns you.

I'm glad you don't watch videos on twitter, unfortunately you appear to have used another source to fall into the very same trap those who do have done. People have to get used to a new way of consuming media and aggregating facts. Whilst everyone has happily accepted social media as a source for news, the fact that it's so instant has also fooled many into jumping to immediate conclusions that are not always correct. Previously our first access to news would have been via the BBC, or an equally cautious print newspaper. Whilst obvious bias exists in all of them, we could be fairly sure that what was represented was a rough approximation of the facts. That isn't the case now - especially not with people filming half of every story and having the ability to disseminate it to he whole world in seconds.

 

[Rorschach]

I'd say their trial system is at least as robust as that in the UK - generally considered the gold standard around the world.

The original point was about the justice system. The US, of course, has abandoned the gold standard and have gone straight to determining the outcome depending on how rich you are. We frankly could fill a forum with the flaws in the US justice system.

 

[scaramanga]

The original point was about the justice system. The US, of course, has abandoned the gold standard and have gone straight to determining the outcome depending on how rich you are. We frankly could fill a forum of the flaws in the US justice system.

There's a huge disparity in the quality of legal counsel in the civil system - those with deeper pockets will usually walk away with the result they want.

That's less clear in the legal one though. There's little difference in terms of quality and pay between public prosecutors and public defenders. In fact, the level of pro bono work performed by those same, highly talented, civil litigators probably tips the balance a little towards the defendants.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

"The" video. Which video? There are several.

You're blinkered even beyond my belief if you genuinely believe that autopsies in these situations are not beyond politicization. You dismiss his "decision for hire" coroner (a man I presume has professional credentials and access far beyond your access) yet seem perfectly willing to accept a county employee's view on the matter despite the fact that there is a potential interest for the county in such a deduction.

I don't watch videos on twitter, much less use it. A medium for those with short-attention spans and little in the way of critical thinking when used as a primary source of any information.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/us/george-floyd-independent-autopsy/index.html

Hey steff how is America doing is it starting to calm down yet?

After that guy being shot jogging and this one as well i can understand why there rioting.

 

[nayenezgani]

The UK government's lack of solidarity in response to the BLM movement is nothing short of a disgrace, particularly from a nation that basically invented apartheid and the slave trade.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-george-floyd-britain-america-uk-black-people

 

[Grays_1890]

The UK government's lack of solidarity in response to the BLM movement is nothing short of a disgrace, particularly from a nation that basically invented apartheid and the slave trade.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-george-floyd-britain-america-uk-black-people

Ok so lets move this on a level, that article is both thought provoking and brilliant and I agree with a number of points, less others.

But what is the answer? A protest brings light to the cause but what is the answer?

 

[thfcsteff]

Answers within your quote (bold-type)

The decision for hire coroner once was a proper coroner, but he got sacked twice. Now he's just a talking head on TV who sells the answer people want if they have the money. You don't need to read very far to find a list of high profile cases where he's been picked to provide the answer required - OJ Simpson being the highest profile. You also don't have to look very hard to find people who are medical examiners and coroners criticising what he does to their profession. Also check his censure in the Phil Spector case.

I am aware of his history. I would still speculate he is both more qualified and more able to access pertinent information than you are.

I'd like a little more detail why you think the real, employed as a ME, ME would falsify information here. Their chain of command goes to the same people that sacked and bought murder charges against the policeman. They work for the county, and through them the state, not the police - for the very reason that concerns you.

Think very carefully about what you've asked me. First of all, you have looked to suggest that I am claiming a direct "falsification" of information> I have not done so. I have, however, pointed out that there is potential interest for the county in any autopsy, specifically when it pertains to a police matter like this which is worldwide at this point. There are relationships and interests on all sides of the table, whether that be legal, financial or otherwise. The difference between second degree murder and manslaughter is something any lawyer would tell you is in the six zero range. The implications are huge. It is why any case like this should have at least two different physical evidence reviews. To be clear - it is very possible to arrive at a different conclusion without falsifying information; perhaps you don't include (or explore) all the angles. When blood flow is restricted to the brain, your oxygen levels will suffer and your breathing will be labored to say the least; ditto if your heart is under duress. Once again, 200lbs of pressure on a potential pressure point near a main artery for a sustained (or intervaled) amounts of time will cause death. His heart condition is not the main point. Was he resisting arrest? Did he request help/advise he was in danger? Did the cop listen to him? No to all.

You will also note that the total amount of arrests and sackings have occurred since the results not before.

I'm glad you don't watch videos on twitter, unfortunately you appear to have used another source to fall into the very same trap those who do have done.

I am guilty of using the New York Times and the Washington Post. Apologies for such tardy sources.

People have to get used to a new way of consuming media and aggregating facts. Whilst everyone has happily accepted social media as a source for news, the fact that it's so instant has also fooled many into jumping to immediate conclusions that are not always correct. Previously our first access to news would have been via the BBC, or an equally cautious print newspaper. Whilst obvious bias exists in all of them, we could be fairly sure that what was represented was a rough approximation of the facts. That isn't the case now - especially not with people filming half of every story and having the ability to disseminate it to he whole world in seconds.

I am not sure if you are fully aware of what I do/have done for 37 years. Your pontification re: consumption of modern media, fact-manipulation and the disasters that can result from it are not news to me, or anyone who isn't blind. Brexit was won in such a fashion, as was the 2016 US general election. Appalling.I have actually given lectures to some local schools about how to comprehend modern media, to spot the difference between opinion and fact, to understand that even facts can be presented in a context which suits the agenda of the presenter, and to make sure to never, ever trust one source but to draw from several. So just to be clear, what you have said is not news to me. As has often been said, never before have we had so much information yet had such little knowledge.

Equally, I personally do not always condone those who wait for conclusive evidence when conclusive evidence is not available. Unless you were George Floyd, you have no idea what he felt as the cop was kneeling on his neck. As we are seeing, there are several potentially applicable causes of death. What we can say is that there are several ways to die, and in this case, the funnel point bringing them all together is a 200lb cop kneeling on his neck for 8 minutes. Couple that with someone receiving repeated warnings of being unable to breathe, and note that at no time did the officer get off Floyd's neck area. The overwhelming evidence suggests that the cop made a decision at that moment to keep the pressure on despite hearing the victims fear for their mortality.

Finally, I am sure you assume that the "racist" element of the situation is conjecture on the part of "people like me." I cannot argue with you. I am absolutely convinced that had George Floyd been 5ft10" and white, he'd have got a night in jail, some cheap bail and be walking around right now. That he isn't has everything to do with how a large black male is viewed by many in the US.
I didn't get that from twitter either my friend.

 

[thfcsteff]

Hey steff how is America doing is it starting to calm down yet?

After that guy being shot jogging and this one as well i can understand why there rioting.

It is getting there mate. Bonkers all of it. Agitators certainly pushed the rioting and found "willing customers" to avail themselves of looting. Trump wants re-election, and all leaders love a good war to get there; never seen one so purposefully try to do so via a civil war though!!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

Ok so lets move this on a level, that article is both thought provoking and brilliant and I agree with a number of points, less others.

But what is the answer? A protest brings light to the cause but what is the answer?

Great question, and one I will put my mind to answering in detail with the thought it deserves a little down the road here. My immediate response is that everyone has to challenge themselves on areas where they might be prejudiced without even knowing it. How much better can "I" do, as opposed to anything else?

 

[SteveAWOL]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1268361796815110145

 

[nayenezgani]

Ok so lets move this on a level, that article is both thought provoking and brilliant and I agree with a number of points, less others.

But what is the answer? A protest brings light to the cause but what is the answer?

It starts with education, not white-washing the retelling of events involved in creating the current imbalance. White men own industry, media etc. They control the discourse. Honesty in education.

Then regular, consistent and genuine acknowledgement. Institutions and country's leadership taking responsibility and full ownership of these acknowledgements and seeing them through.

Someone more clever than I could figure out the process and how it looks exactly, I just know these are two important areas. No one is born racist, bigoted or prejudiced. It's all learned behavior, it can be unlearned.

The UK isn't alone here either, see France, Belgium, Spain, Netherlands etc. There's not one quick fix, but something needs to change as the message is clearly not getting through.

 

[glasgowspur]

The UK government's lack of solidarity in response to the BLM movement is nothing short of a disgrace, particularly from a nation that basically invented apartheid and the slave trade.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...-george-floyd-britain-america-uk-black-people

The slave trade goes a lot further back than the British empire, in fact before "Britain" existed.
And it wasn't just white people.
African president talking about black people living in fear, yes, including in predominantly black African countries.
There are a lot of brick people in this world, they come in all sizes, colours, sexes and creeds.
Pushing all the worlds ills, past, present and future onto one set of them is not an answer.

 

[nayenezgani]

The slave trade goes a lot further back than the British empire, in fact before "Britain" existed.
And it wasn't just white people.
African president talking about black people living in fear, yes, including in predominantly black African countries.
There are a lot of brick people in this world, they come in all sizes, colours, sexes and creeds.
Pushing all the worlds ills, past, present and future onto one set of them is not an answer.

So Britain shouldn't acknowledge its contribution because everyone else was doing it and ahh well lots of people are brick? Kindly fudge off.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

So Britain shouldn't acknowledge its contribution because everyone else was doing it and ahh well lots of people are brick? Kindly fudge off.

I’m opening a massive can of worms here but we should recognise what’s we did good and bad

I remember having this chat with an Indian government official (very wealthy guy) about India (I’ve never been)
In his head we didn’t exploit or damage India. He saw us as developing the country for them by bringing in education, languages, infrastructure, better weapons, a different class system, travel opportunities and money

all of them could also be negatives but as he was wealthy he didn’t see the negatives. He had a guys whose job was to polish his shoe collection, and another whose job was to put shoe shapers in his families shoes

im sure that that conversation with a poorer person would be different, but their voice is put being heard, and equally the6 do get treated differently within their own country because of their caste which again is a prejudice

I don’t believe we created the caste system in India but I’m sure we capitalised on it to add influence

I do think we have to strive to achieve a society where we treat people as we would want to be treated ourselves

there is some really decent unconscious bias work out there which is worth people Looking at IMO regardless of skin colour or sex and it’s quite eye opening

 

[glasgowspur]

So Britain shouldn't acknowledge its contribution because everyone else was doing it and ahh well lots of people are brick? Kindly fudge off.

Did I say that?
No, I didn't.
I pointed out a factual error in your post, if you think my point is wrong then fine, explain where it is wrong and we can discuss it.

And for the record, is slavery wrong, yes. Did Britain benefit from it, yes.
Is it a stain on our history, yes.
Should we apologise for it, yes.
Is racism still an issue in this country, without a doubt yes.
There is absolutely nothing I can do about what happened 200, 100, or even 50 years ago, but I can try to change what is happening now and what can happen going forward (GHod I hate that phrase!).

 

[glasgowspur]

I’m opening a massive can of worms here but we should recognise what’s we did good and bad

I remember having this chat with an Indian government official (very wealthy guy) about India (I’ve never been)
In his head we didn’t exploit or damage India. He saw us as developing the country for them by bringing in education, languages, infrastructure, better weapons, a different class system, travel opportunities and money

all of them could also be negatives but as he was wealthy he didn’t see the negatives. He had a guys whose job was to polish his shoe collection, and another whose job was to put shoe shapers in his families shoes

im sure that that conversation with a poorer person would be different, but their voice is put being heard, and equally the6 do get treated differently within their own country because of their caste which again is a prejudice

I don’t believe we created the caste system in India but I’m sure we capitalised on it to add influence

I do think we have to strive to achieve a society where we treat people as we would want to be treated ourselves

there is some really decent unconscious bias work out there which is worth people Looking at IMO regardless of skin colour or sex and it’s quite eye opening

The British actually did a lot to try and wipe the caste system in India, which was horrific.
Their motives are open to debate.
There are oppressed all over the world, always have been, the masses are finally waking up to it and that it shouldn't be and does not need to be that way.
If, and I think this is big if, we as a species can realise that our only real hope is each other regardless of race, colour, creed or whatever other division we create in our minds.
Because ultimately that is what it is, man made divisions. Divisions stoked and perpetuated by those at the top with the most to lose.

 

[Parklaner81]

Regarding the upgraded murder charge against Chauvin; by playing to the gallery in this way, haven't prosecutors substantially increased the risk of him walking?

(little-no knowledge of US legal system by the way)