BIG DECISIONS RE: PLAYERS - SOME SPECULATIVE FUN

[thfcsteff]

Maddison when signed was a £60m player but his contract meant we paid £40
Solanke at £65m
Richarlison at £55m (if that’s right)
These are big money signings
We just spent £60m ish on 3 kids
3 of the back 4 cost £45m roughly, each
We aren’t doing things cheaply

What are the wages compared to most players in their price ranges?

 

[Mikey10]

Maddison when signed was a £60m player but his contract meant we paid £40
Solanke at £65m
Richarlison at £55m (if that’s right)
These are big money signings
We just spent £60m ish on 3 kids
3 of the back 4 cost £45m roughly, each
We aren’t doing things cheaply

They’re not cheap players - but they’re not at the top end of fees either. (See Rice for Arsenal at £100 million - identified as the team’s main need, purchased at top dollar with no fuss).

Those signings were also spread out over multiple windows. Contrast with Liverpool, for example, who were at a crossroads and spent massively on two crucial positions in one window. Meanwhile, we bumped along for a season without replacing the man who had been our main source of goals for years.

We buy in the mid-price bracket for so-called big clubs, and we speculate on youngsters (as we have done this summer, when it could be argued that we were desperate for more experienced first teamers and leaders). For every Dele Alli there will be a Jack Clarke and a Ryan Sessegnon.

As I said in the original post, we haven’t really changed our approach since the move to the new stadium. I don’t believe we will under the current ownership as we are achieving a certain level of ‘success’ without hugely increasing our outlay.

I’m not rabidly Levy Out; I’ve kind of made my own peace with it. We are, for now, what we are and it’s likely to be this way for some time.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What are the wages compared to most players in their price ranges?

No idea
Six figure ones I assume
Id guess more than Chelsea pay their 100m players are they only pay a pittance now with their new set up (apparently)

 

[Kompakted]

Thought I'd give this a go.
Somewhere to let loose with a couple of speculative thoughts as to who you'd upgrade this Jan/June and who you'd be phasing out based on Ange remaining our manager. This is beyond the obvious moves like Reguillon and Werner trundling off.
Some of these are undoubtably going to be harsh as there is not a player I list who isn't quality. What I'm looking at is who won't quite help get us to be a regular top 4/winning side.

For me...

We should look to upgrade Vicario if we can get Kelleher/another keeper of same ability but perhaps as importantly the same calm, non-emotional presence.
We need to upgrade Maddison.
Sonny's time is coming to a close, much more off the bench/as a squad player. Still brilliant, still got goals and moves, but just does not do enough of what Ange wants. Obviously in commercial terms we will not sell him, but we need a proper upgrade option.
Biss. As much as he is absolutely growing into a player I trust, we really need to get a proper class 6.

I think we could get around 20-25 for Vicario from Europe, 25 -35 for Maddison, and 20-25 for Biss.

If the money was right for Romero, I'd take it unless the player can give us full committment on and off the pitch.

Again, put this here for a bit of fun but also to perhaps really think who isn't going to be able to do what Ange does consistently.

For me, if we are serious about making this system work we need:
- A new keeper who is calm but proactive coming off his line - essential when playing a high line.
- Another VDV to play on the right side.
- A proper right back- Porro is a wing back/winger.
- A defensive midfielder that can drop into CB if necessary.
- A left winger that plays like Werner but at a higher level of quality.

Or alternatively, I think you could make this squad work with a manager that played a more pragmatic formation with the players available.

- Maddison for example is a 10. We are asking him to play as an 8 half the time.
- Johnson & Son are forwards and we are asking them to play as wingers.
- Bissouma and Bentancur are 8s, we are asking them to play as a 6.
- Porro and Udogie would both suit a WB role where their defensive responsibilities are reduced and their attacking instincts are encouraged.
- Romero and Dragusin would both suit a system where they are less exposed on a consistent basis and Romero and VDV can both bring the ball out of defence effectively if they have support.
- Maybe Vicario would calm down and look better if we weren't so stretched all the time.

I'd like us to line up like this:

.....................Son........Solanke
...
......................Kulu/Maddison

Udogie.....Bissouma...Bentancur......Porro

............VDV.......Dragusin.....Romero

..............................Vic

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They’re not cheap players - but they’re not at the top end of fees either. (See Rice for Arsenal at £100 million - identified as the team’s main need, purchased at top dollar with no fuss).

Those signings were also spread out over multiple windows. Contrast with Liverpool, for example, who were at a crossroads and spent massively on two crucial positions in one window. We bumped along for a season without replacing the man who had been our main source of goals for years.

We buy in the mid-price bracket for so-called big clubs, and we speculate on youngsters (as we have done this summer, when it could be argued that we were desperate for more experienced first teamers and leaders). For every Dele Alli there will be a Jack Clarke and a Ryan Sessegnon.

As I said in the original post, we haven’t really changed our approach since the move to the new stadium. I don’t believe we will under the current ownership as we are achieving a certain level of ‘success’ without hugely increasing our outlay.

I’m not rabidly Levy Out; I’ve kind of made my own peace with it. We are, for now, what we are and it’s likely to be this way for some time.

Arsenal and Liverpool didn’t buy those players in the second year of a managers tenure.
That’s a key thing
I’ve always assumed the recent window was to fill some of huge squad gaps and next summer would be when the extra quality would be added (like a rice type of purchase)
I could easily be wrong

 

[glasgowspur]

Players who see us a step up rather than a sideways move

Sideways but more suitable.
A keeper that the defence knows what he is going to do. Vic is way too unpredictable for my liking.
A RCB that doesn't go rushing after the ball every time he gets a sight of it.
A DM that wants to defend and isn't an attack minded player.
Any one of those is an improvement, all three is dream stuff.

 

[glasgowspur]

They’re not cheap players - but they’re not at the top end of fees either. (See Rice for Arsenal at £100 million - identified as the team’s main need, purchased at top dollar with no fuss).

Those signings were also spread out over multiple windows. Contrast with Liverpool, for example, who were at a crossroads and spent massively on two crucial positions in one window. Meanwhile, we bumped along for a season without replacing the man who had been our main source of goals for years.

We buy in the mid-price bracket for so-called big clubs, and we speculate on youngsters (as we have done this summer, when it could be argued that we were desperate for more experienced first teamers and leaders). For every Dele Alli there will be a Jack Clarke and a Ryan Sessegnon.

As I said in the original post, we haven’t really changed our approach since the move to the new stadium. I don’t believe we will under the current ownership as we are achieving a certain level of ‘success’ without hugely increasing our outlay.

I’m not rabidly Levy Out; I’ve kind of made my own peace with it. We are, for now, what we are and it’s likely to be this way for some time.

Arsenal over spent on rice, £100m plus iirc, to not really get any better.
Liverpool paid big money for vdv, Allison, mane and a few more that weren't a success. For one league and one CL in was it 7-9 years. Is that the really the success it's made out to be? Not counting the "lesser" trophies and of course it's against the behemoth of city, but still.
Look at utd or Chelsea, top dollar for rubbish, £80m for Harry maguire?
Not great returns for the money, and could you imagine us spending £100m on a player, the press would be slaughtering him for every mistake.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Arsenal over spent on rice, £100m plus iirc, to not really get any better.
Liverpool paid big money for vdv, Allison, mane and a few more that weren't a success. For one league and one CL in was it 7-9 years. Is that the really the success it's made out to be? Not counting the "lesser" trophies and of course it's against the behemoth of city, but still.
Look at utd or Chelsea, top dollar for rubbish, £80m for Harry maguire?
Not great returns for the money, and could you imagine us spending £100m on a player, the press would be slaughtering him for every mistake.

Could always buy Darwin

 

[Jurgen the German]

Thought I'd give this a go.
Somewhere to let loose with a couple of speculative thoughts as to who you'd upgrade this Jan/June and who you'd be phasing out based on Ange remaining our manager. This is beyond the obvious moves like Reguillon and Werner trundling off.
Some of these are undoubtably going to be harsh as there is not a player I list who isn't quality. What I'm looking at is who won't quite help get us to be a regular top 4/winning side.

For me...

We should look to upgrade Vicario if we can get Kelleher/another keeper of same ability but perhaps as importantly the same calm, non-emotional presence.
We need to upgrade Maddison.
Sonny's time is coming to a close, much more off the bench/as a squad player. Still brilliant, still got goals and moves, but just does not do enough of what Ange wants. Obviously in commercial terms we will not sell him, but we need a proper upgrade option.
Biss. As much as he is absolutely growing into a player I trust, we really need to get a proper class 6.

I think we could get around 20-25 for Vicario from Europe, 25 -35 for Maddison, and 20-25 for Biss.

If the money was right for Romero, I'd take it unless the player can give us full committment on and off the pitch.

Again, put this here for a bit of fun but also to perhaps really think who isn't going to be able to do what Ange does consistently.

I would also upgrade on Vicario. I wouldn’t cut Maddison just yet but he needs do to a lot more and win his place back. I’d love to sign Kelleher.

Bissouma is fine as a squad player but we need a top quality DM.

 

[Kompakted]

Arsenal over spent on rice, £100m plus iirc, to not really get any better.
Liverpool paid big money for vdv, Allison, mane and a few more that weren't a success. For one league and one CL in was it 7-9 years. Is that the really the success it's made out to be? Not counting the "lesser" trophies and of course it's against the behemoth of city, but still.
Look at utd or Chelsea, top dollar for rubbish, £80m for Harry maguire?
Not great returns for the money, and could you imagine us spending £100m on a player, the press would be slaughtering him for every mistake.

We haven't had a good record at all with our record/big name signings, just look at our 2019 window, which I was buzzing about: N'Dombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon all flopped badly.

 

[glasgowspur]

We haven't had a good record at all with our record/big name signings, just look at our 2019 window, which I was buzzing about: N'Dombele, Lo Celso and Sessegnon all flopped badly.

Ndombele failed us, I think we failed glc and sess tbh.
Can you imagine the absolute pelters glc would have got if he had done what rice did and got sent off?
The press would have had a field day, rice could possibly have cost arsenal the title and it blew over in a couple of days.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Arsenal over spent on rice, £100m plus iirc, to not really get any better.
Liverpool paid big money for vdv, Allison, mane and a few more that weren't a success. For one league and one CL in was it 7-9 years. Is that the really the success it's made out to be? Not counting the "lesser" trophies and of course it's against the behemoth of city, but still.
Look at utd or Chelsea, top dollar for rubbish, £80m for Harry maguire?
Not great returns for the money, and could you imagine us spending £100m on a player, the press would be slaughtering him for every mistake.

Rice has made them better IMO, how much better is debatable but he was an upgrade on what they had previously.

Liverpool also won 2 league cups and an FA cup but a case can be made that they didn’t win as much as they should have.

Agree United are not an example we should be following.

 

[Kompakted]

Rice has made them better IMO, how much better is debatable but he was an upgrade on what they had previously.

Liverpool also won 2 league cups and an FA cup but a case can be made that they didn’t win as much as they should have.

Agree United are not an example we should be following.

The elephant in the room in terms of any club not winning as much as they should have in the last decade is the over 100 charges laid against Emirates Marketing Project.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Rice has made them better IMO, how much better is debatable but he was an upgrade on what they had previously.

Liverpool also won 2 league cups and an FA cup but a case can be made that they didn’t win as much as they should have.

Agree United are not an example we should be following.

Rice is class and has made them better
Pool are better
But the league is always skewed by city
Teams gamble on players like united and Chelsea have
What else do you do….

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The elephant in the room in terms of any club not winning as much as they should have in the last decade is the over 100 charges laid against Emirates Marketing Project.

This
no matter what a club does when your against in cheat mode it’s not comparable

 

[Jurgen the German]

The elephant in the room in terms of any club not winning as much as they should have in the last decade is the over 100 charges laid against Emirates Marketing Project.

Exactly. “Only winning” 1 CL and 1 PL doesn’t sound as much compared to previous Liverpool teams or the current City team but winning one of everything (including domestic cups) is still not to be sniffed at.

 

[glasgowspur]

Rice has made them better IMO, how much better is debatable but he was an upgrade on what they had previously.

Liverpool also won 2 league cups and an FA cup but a case can be made that they didn’t win as much as they should have.

Agree United are not an example we should be following.

£100m better? I don't think so.

Liverpools achievements under klopp are not to be sniffed at, especially with city doing what they are doing, but worthy of the plaudits and praise, not for me.
The klopp hysteria was over blown imo.

 

[Mcfee]

I think Kelleher is decent but overrated, and will almost definitely be overpriced.

 

[braineclipse]

Thought I'd give this a go.
Somewhere to let loose with a couple of speculative thoughts as to who you'd upgrade this Jan/June and who you'd be phasing out based on Ange remaining our manager. This is beyond the obvious moves like Reguillon and Werner trundling off.
Some of these are undoubtably going to be harsh as there is not a player I list who isn't quality. What I'm looking at is who won't quite help get us to be a regular top 4/winning side.

For me...

We should look to upgrade Vicario if we can get Kelleher/another keeper of same ability but perhaps as importantly the same calm, non-emotional presence.
We need to upgrade Maddison.
Sonny's time is coming to a close, much more off the bench/as a squad player. Still brilliant, still got goals and moves, but just does not do enough of what Ange wants. Obviously in commercial terms we will not sell him, but we need a proper upgrade option.
Biss. As much as he is absolutely growing into a player I trust, we really need to get a proper class 6.

I think we could get around 20-25 for Vicario from Europe, 25 -35 for Maddison, and 20-25 for Biss.

If the money was right for Romero, I'd take it unless the player can give us full committment on and off the pitch.

Again, put this here for a bit of fun but also to perhaps really think who isn't going to be able to do what Ange does consistently.

The big question for me this season is can we step up in terms of consistency. Our ceiling is really good, our floor is too low and we hit it too often.

With that I continously return to mentality and dealing with "easier" games, frustration and when we struggle for periods of games.

For me the players you list are imo all "good enough" and fit the system "well enough". But they're not consistent enough and our biggest and more experienced players have to take their responsibility on the mentality thing.

If we fail to develop on those things (mentality and consistency) across the season I will probably mostly agree with you. If some of those players seem capable of upping their consistency and also helping others around them to do the same (very difficult to judge from the outside) they should be untouchable.

There are valid questions of how well players like Bissouma, Bentancur and Son fit their roles. There are also valid questions of balance in the team with them and several others imo. In part that also creates inconsistency, and that will be (even) more difficult to overcome with mentality.

I guess what I'm saying is that I think it's too early to tell and that I still have hope that we see (further) improvements this season in what I consider to be key areas in need of improvement.

 

[spurspinter1]

I'd like us to line up like this:

.....................Son........Solanke
...
......................Kulu/Maddison

Udogie.....Bissouma...Bentancur......Porro

............VDV.......Dragusin.....Romero

..............................Vic

You never know how good a team will be on paper but this set up looks like it has the capability to be immense. However you'd need Biss and Bents to both bring their best all the time and we also would need another couple of viable CBs to step in without a huge drop off in quality, preferably one that is comfortable at LWB as well. Plus an actually reliable defensively minded CM. Oh and a reliably fit back up to Solanke. And a less manic keeper that can organise a defense....Fix those issues and it'd be a squad actually competing for the title which the right coach who knows how to win the league with a back 3, perhaps we could give him a call, he definitely had good relationship with the board and holds them in high regard