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Ben Davies

nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I genuinely do not believe that. Not one bit.

I think it is far to close to call to make such an absolute statement.

The team hasnt skipped a beat in Roses absence. Hasnt suffered offensively. Has been better defensively. And by any reasonable assessment we havent been looking at a glaring deficiency of any kind on the left side in Roses absence.

If Rose was superior in almost every aspect surely we should expect to "obviously" miss him.

We simply havent.

Goals for/against and points per game are more or less the same with either player.

The difference between the players is in style, no more. Rose catches the eye, makes more runs, shows his pace. Davies is much more understated, passes more than runs, doesnt get noticed as much. Ultimately though productivity wise, there is barely anything to choose between them.

Put it this way, much like with Walker, if Rose was sold I wouldnt lose any sleep over it at all. Thats not to say I dont rate him, or that I think Davies is superior - just that I dont think we would miss him (as we havent the last 8 months).
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I disagree. Just because we've done OK without Rose, doesn't mean we haven't missed him. The logic is flawed.

Moderators: Can we have buttons that say "Agree" and "Disagree" rather than just "Like"?
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I genuinely do not believe that. Not one bit.

I think it is far to close to call to make such an absolute statement.

The team hasnt skipped a beat in Roses absence. Hasnt suffered offensively. Has been better defensively. And by any reasonable assessment we havent been looking at a glaring deficiency of any kind on the left side in Roses absence.

If Rose was superior in almost every aspect surely we should expect to "obviously" miss him.

We simply havent.

Goals for/against and points per game are more or less the same with either player.

The difference between the players is in style, no more. Rose catches the eye, makes more runs, shows his pace. Davies is much more understated, passes more than runs, doesnt get noticed as much. Ultimately though productivity wise, there is barely anything to choose between them.

Put it this way, much like with Walker, if Rose was sold I wouldnt lose any sleep over it at all. Thats not to say I dont rate him, or that I think Davies is superior - just that I dont think we would miss him (as we havent the last 8 months).
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Your logic is fair as the stats would prove your point but when it comes to big games Rose shines and stand up to be counted. I haven't seen that yet from Davies and thats his next step to take. When your good enough that the opposition fear you, you have made your mark. We had that with rose and Walker. Now people ar fearful of Trippiers passing but not his running, or his drive, and I believe the may see him as a defensive weakness. I don't believe they would see Davies as a defensive weakness per se but they wing see him as a threat akin to rose as he isnt a player that pushes you back - but that's an opportunity for him to exploit
 
Jurgen the German said:
Had we signed Davies 10 years earlier for example (lets pretend he was the same age 10 years ago playing in a different era) instead of someone like YP Lee who I thought was crap, I think we would have all been saying that he's the best left back we've had at club in the PL era but Rose is the superior player in almost every aspect of the game.
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True, but then, we wouldn't have been able to enjoy the phenomenon known as Disco Benny - and, like it or not, BAE was probably one of the best performers of the Harry era, so it didn't work out badly at all in the end. ;)
 
Bullet said:
I disagree. Just because we've done OK without Rose, doesn't mean we haven't missed him. The logic is flawed.

Moderators: Can we have buttons that say "Agree" and "Disagree" rather than just "Like"?
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How is it flawed when the team simply hasnt skipped a beat, hasnt been weaker, hasnt struggled for goals and assists from the left, has improved (marginally) defensively...

How have we missed him?


Bedfordspurs said:
Your logic is fair as the stats would prove your point but when it comes to big games Rose shines and stand up to be counted. I haven't seen that yet from Davies and thats his next step to take. When your good enough that the opposition fear you, you have made your mark. We had that with rose and Walker. Now people ar fearful of Trippiers passing but not his running, or his drive, and I believe the may see him as a defensive weakness. I don't believe they would see Davies as a defensive weakness per se but they wing see him as a threat akin to rose as he isnt a player that pushes you back - but that's an opportunity for him to exploit
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Rose is firey, Ill give him that. And you can see he really relishes the personal battles, which I quite enjoy.

I really think it comes down to style, which is ultimately impossible to quantify but of course ones own preference.

I will say I feel Davies is developing still, growing into that attacking role more. He got an assist on Saturday, goes completely unmentioned. He also got a number of key passes, again unmentioned for the most part. Rose is often heralded as some sort of attacking player (much like Walker) and yet, much like Walker, I dont actually think he is especially useful in attack. He has his moments, of course - but again - statistically - does no better than Davies now (who himself is getting better). Often loses the ball, balloons a cross, gets tackled and has to track back... Davies is more risk averse, doesnt take those chances, but the chances he does take pay off just as much as Roses successes.

As Ive stated, I think its a fine line between them. To the degree I dont really think either is obviously superior. I think there will be games that suit either depending on the opposition, and I think thats a great place for the squad to be at. The only real difference is in style, blood and thunder or calm and collected, that kind of thing.

My argument here is only that those saying how Rose is so clearly superior, are wrong, in my view. Its too close to call.
 
Interesting to read that stats are similar between the two defenders. However must agree with @Bedfordspurs there is more a of a 'fear factor' with the opposition when Danny Rose is on the teamsheet. And rightly or wrongly, if I see a Spurs starting 11 with Rose in it, I would be that couple of percent more confident against the big teams of getting a result.

Not taking anything away from Davies though. Himself and Trippier were integral to us getting 2nd in the league last season.
 
AuroRaman said:
Interesting to read that stats are similar between the two defenders. However must agree with @Bedfordspurs there is more a of a 'fear factor' with the opposition when Danny Rose is on the teamsheet. And rightly or wrongly, if I see a Spurs starting 11 with Rose in it, I would be that couple of percent more confident against the big teams of getting a result.

Not taking anything away from Davies though. Himself and Trippier were integral to us getting 2nd in the league last season.
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I think we look more "In control" of a game with rose and you can clearly see teams trying to adapt to counter his direct play.

However the stats don't lie and it doesn't surprise me that the numbers are so very close.

Just another testament to how great our manager is.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
How is it flawed when the team simply hasnt skipped a beat, hasnt been weaker, hasnt struggled for goals and assists from the left, has improved (marginally) defensively...

How have we missed him?




Rose is firey, Ill give him that. And you can see he really relishes the personal battles, which I quite enjoy.

I really think it comes down to style, which is ultimately impossible to quantify but of course ones own preference.

I will say I feel Davies is developing still, growing into that attacking role more. He got an assist on Saturday, goes completely unmentioned. He also got a number of key passes, again unmentioned for the most part. Rose is often heralded as some sort of attacking player (much like Walker) and yet, much like Walker, I dont actually think he is especially useful in attack. He has his moments, of course - but again - statistically - does no better than Davies now (who himself is getting better). Often loses the ball, balloons a cross, gets tackled and has to track back... Davies is more risk averse, doesnt take those chances, but the chances he does take pay off just as much as Roses successes.

As Ive stated, I think its a fine line between them. To the degree I dont really think either is obviously superior. I think there will be games that suit either depending on the opposition, and I think thats a great place for the squad to be at. The only real difference is in style, blood and thunder or calm and collected, that kind of thing.

My argument here is only that those saying how Rose is so clearly superior, are wrong, in my view. Its too close to call.
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Good post and i agree with all of it. Rose is more dynamic for sure but not sure he is a better all round player.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I genuinely do not believe that. Not one bit.

I think it is far to close to call to make such an absolute statement.

The team hasnt skipped a beat in Roses absence. Hasnt suffered offensively. Has been better defensively. And by any reasonable assessment we havent been looking at a glaring deficiency of any kind on the left side in Roses absence.

If Rose was superior in almost every aspect surely we should expect to "obviously" miss him.

We simply havent.

Goals for/against and points per game are more or less the same with either player.

The difference between the players is in style, no more. Rose catches the eye, makes more runs, shows his pace. Davies is much more understated, passes more than runs, doesnt get noticed as much. Ultimately though productivity wise, there is barely anything to choose between them.

Put it this way, much like with Walker, if Rose was sold I wouldnt lose any sleep over it at all. Thats not to say I dont rate him, or that I think Davies is superior - just that I dont think we would miss him (as we havent the last 8 months).
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I disagree. We have missed Rose in the big games in my opinion. We have coped more than adequately with Davies for the majority games Rose is a step up from him defensively and going forward and has more pace, which we miss against the likes of Chelsea, City etc.

One way of measuring how good they are potentially is to ask the question (subjective I know) how many teams in the PL would have Rose and Davies in their starting 11's. In Rose's case I would say practically all of them. Davies I'm not so sure. He would arguably get into every side outside of last year's top 4.

Davies was very good last season no arguement there, but let's not forget that the only reason he got such an extended run in the side was due to Rose's long term injury. Rose was the clear first choice before his injury. I don't think Poch will automatically reinstall him when fit but I don't think he will have to wait more than a couple of games before he regains his place.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I disagree. We have missed Rose in the big games in my opinion. We have coped more than adequately with Davies for the majority games Rose is a step up from him defensively and going forward and has more pace, which we miss against the likes of Chelsea, City etc.

One way of measuring how good they are potentially is to ask the question (subjective I know) how many teams in the PL would have Rose and Davies in their starting 11's. In Rose's case I would say practically all of them. Davies I'm not so sure. He would arguably get into every side outside of last year's top 4.

Davies was very good last season no arguement there, but let's not forget that the only reason he got such an extended run in the side was due to Rose's long term injury. Rose was the clear first choice before his injury. I don't think Poch will automatically reinstall him when fit but I don't think he will have to wait more than a couple of games before he regains his place.
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Davies is the superior defender without doubt. No question in my mind whatsoever. He works within the unit much better, is positionally miles better, and with him in the side we conceed fewer chances and goals.

Offensively? Well I guess its a case of what you like. Statistically they are VERY close.

For all the talk of Roses pace and direct running, he actually provides very little tangible results. There is the argument that he creates space with those runs, Ill take that, but key passes/crosses/shots on target? Surprisingly few that count.

I looked at the stats comparing him to Davies last season, and the essence of it was Davies made fewer attempts than Rose, but had the same number of successes. You can look at that as Davies is too conservative, or Rose is wasteful. Point being - Rose is a lot of "flash" without much "bang!". Catches the eye though...

Davies is a constant outlet as well, while he doesnt offer as much direct running his passing is much more accomplished and he plays people into space better (IMO).

I really think the contrast in peoples minds is the differing style. Rose is busy, quick, gets into battles - you notice him a lot more than Davies who is quietly efficient.

Personally I am a big fan of the latter type of player. Carrick was (and is) one of my favourite players ever, a genuine class footballer - and I still remember all the "what does he do?" threads here. Funny, people noticed when he wasnt here any more, and Utd went onto major success with him in their midfield pulling the strings (while half their fans asked "What does he do?" :D )


The whole "who would take which player" really doesnt hold much water. Its subjective in the first place, and lets be honest - even the top teams make some bizarre choices in transfers. Walker to City this summer was one of the most ridiculous things Ive ever seen.

And yes, Rose WAS clearly first choice. I dont think its clear cut at all at this point though. I think Rose was at the top of his game, but I also think Davies is yet to reach his ceiling. These last 8 months he has been developing steadily the whole time. And how will Rose's lay off have effected him? Will he come back the same player?

My whole argument here is that the gap between them is minimal, that neither is clearly the better player.

And my belief is that Davies style just leads people to downplay just how good he is (and is becoming). Im a big fan of Rose as well, its not like Im picking sides, just calling it as I see it.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Davies is the superior defender without doubt. No question in my mind whatsoever. He works within the unit much better, is positionally miles better, and with him in the side we conceed fewer chances and goals.

Offensively? Well I guess its a case of what you like. Statistically they are VERY close.

For all the talk of Roses pace and direct running, he actually provides very little tangible results. There is the argument that he creates space with those runs, Ill take that, but key passes/crosses/shots on target? Surprisingly few that count.

I looked at the stats comparing him to Davies last season, and the essence of it was Davies made fewer attempts than Rose, but had the same number of successes. You can look at that as Davies is too conservative, or Rose is wasteful. Point being - Rose is a lot of "flash" without much "bang!". Catches the eye though...

Davies is a constant outlet as well, while he doesnt offer as much direct running his passing is much more accomplished and he plays people into space better (IMO).

I really think the contrast in peoples minds is the differing style. Rose is busy, quick, gets into battles - you notice him a lot more than Davies who is quietly efficient.

Personally I am a big fan of the latter type of player. Carrick was (and is) one of my favourite players ever, a genuine class footballer - and I still remember all the "what does he do?" threads here. Funny, people noticed when he wasnt here any more, and Utd went onto major success with him in their midfield pulling the strings (while half their fans asked "What does he do?" :D )


The whole "who would take which player" really doesnt hold much water. Its subjective in the first place, and lets be honest - even the top teams make some bizarre choices in transfers. Walker to City this summer was one of the most ridiculous things Ive ever seen.

And yes, Rose WAS clearly first choice. I dont think its clear cut at all at this point though. I think Rose was at the top of his game, but I also think Davies is yet to reach his ceiling. These last 8 months he has been developing steadily the whole time. And how will Rose's lay off have effected him? Will he come back the same player?

My whole argument here is that the gap between them is minimal, that neither is clearly the better player.

And my belief is that Davies style just leads people to downplay just how good he is (and is becoming). Im a big fan of Rose as well, its not like Im picking sides, just calling it as I see it.
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Theres more too it then that from a tactical perspective, in terms of Defensive output and Offensive output i am sure there will be little difference between davies/rose and even walker/trippier. The difference is however the starting positions of both our wing backs and opponents wing backs/full backs. With Davies opponent full backs can push right onto Davies knowing he cant damage them behind him for pace meaning if we lose possession they can counter on the wings much quicker. When opponents have possession this is reversed as Davies needs to sit a bit deeper to stop full back/winger from running behind him allowing them to be more aggressive on attack. With Rose however, due to his pace opponents stand off him more so he cant get behind and he can move onto the opponents full back knowing his pace will get him out of jail should they break quickly. This is the reason for Son being played as LWB against chelsea to push Moses back and take them off the front foot in the wide positions.
 
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