AVB

[Jurgen the German]

Yes true. However, I liken it a bit to Brendan Rodgers last season. I can't really credit him with 2nd as without Suarez he wouldn't have got near it and this season has proved what I said to be right.

Of course they were managers at the time but if you've got one player bailing you out week after week I can't use that as a bow to their arrow.

Especially when most of his goals were 25 yard screamers.

 

[Baleforce]

Yes true. However, I liken it a bit to Brendan Rodgers last season. I can't really credit him with 2nd as without Suarez he wouldn't have got near it and this season has proved what I said to be right.

Of course they were managers at the time but if you've got one player bailing you out week after week I can't use that as a bow to their arrow.

i'm not sure it really counts as bailing us out, he wasn't having to score a hatful every week as our defence played so well, thats was a key difference between us and last seasons liverpool imo, they couldn't defend for toffee so had to play shoot out football which suarez was heavily prominent in, even if bale had an off game (not that I can remember one) we were capable of keeping a clean sheet and had other players that could score goals as well, obviously he was incredible and had so many special moments that turned draws into victories, but without suarez a lot of victories would have been defeats, we were an effective side from front to back

 

[Neymar]

Yet Mourinho only ever manages the richest team in the league and is considered one of the greats.

:roll:

and what is evening more interesting re mourinho, he doesnt even really perform that much better than you would expect him to given his finances.

which manager can you entirely credit with any points total?

good teams have good players playing well, bale played brilliantly in that team which was setup by AVB to maximise his effectiveness, that was his method

avb may have setup a team that maximised bale's effectiveness. but did he maximise tottenham's effectiveness? all we really know is he had probably the 4th-6th biggest budget, and he got tottenham to finish in and around that zone. fwiw, im not saying that he did or did not maximise our "effectiveness". im just saying that its a far more nuanced debate, and that as fans, we'll probably never really know.

Yes true. However, I liken it a bit to Brendan Rodgers last season. I can't really credit him with 2nd as without Suarez he wouldn't have got near it and this season has proved what I said to be right.

Of course they were managers at the time but if you've got one player bailing you out week after week I can't use that as a bow to their arrow.

i dont even think its just about suarez. yes he was superb last season, but i dont think the difference between lpool this season compared to last is just about suarez. i think the majority of it has to do with luck. they had so much luck last season in various forms it was unbelievable. they havent been so lucky this season, and thus are probably going to regress to the mean.

 

[SteveAWOL]

Yet Mourinho only ever manages the richest team in the league and is considered one of the greats.

:roll:

Perhaps if Villas-Boas had lead Porto to Champions League glory (like Mourinho did in his 2nd season there) or Chelsea to the Premier League title (like Mourinho did in his first season in England) then AVB might be considered one of the greats too k:

i'm not sure it really counts as bailing us out, he wasn't having to score a hatful every week as our defence played so well, thats was a key difference between us and last seasons liverpool imo, they couldn't defend for toffee so had to play shoot out football which suarez was heavily prominent in, even if bale had an off game (not that I can remember one) we were capable of keeping a clean sheet and had other players that could score goals as well, obviously he was incredible and had so many special moments that turned draws into victories, but without suarez a lot of victories would have been defeats, we were an effective side from front to back

Despite their defensive frailties the Dippers only conceded 4 more league goals (50 V 46) last season than AVB' rigidly organised side of 2012/13 and they actually kept more clean sheets (10 V 9) too.

 

[shaney]

his methods got us our record points total

i agree with Milo, he needs to stick around in one job for a bit, if he keeps doing what he's doing there its only a matter of time before he ends up in a higher profile league at a "big club"

Harry Redknapp's methods got us top 4 TWICE, and to the quarter finals of the Champions League.

 

[Baleforce]

Harry Redknapp's methods got us top 4 TWICE, and to the quarter finals of the Champions League.

and Bill Nic's won us a double

 

[shaney]

and Bill Nic's won us a double

I agree.

 

[thfcsteff]

Harry Redknapp's methods got us top 4 TWICE, and to the quarter finals of the Champions League.

So why did he want to leave then? More to the point, why did he f**k off TWO half-seasons in a row?
Let's start there if we're going to lurch back into this debate.

As for AVB and Bale (not aimed at you this one mate, just generally as I don't want to post twice in a row) it was clear at the time that Bale had received some excellent coaching from AVB who, shorn of our playmaker for the past 3 seasons needed to make use of his world class talent (one). The few of us who said it were ridiculed (probably by the same people who refuse to believe that Redknapp would've sanctioned Bale's move to Forest to Brum unless the chairman hadn't stepped in) but Bale himself offered the proof in his recent Telegraph interview.

AVB's greatest problem was (also) himself. If only he didn't have that aspergers-y slight sort of reaction to pressure...

 

[shaney]

So why did he want to leave then? More to the point, why did he f**k off TWO half-seasons in a row?
Let's start there if we're going to lurch back into this debate.

As for AVB and Bale (not aimed at you this one mate, just generally as I don't want to post twice in a row) it was clear at the time that Bale had received some excellent coaching from AVB who, shorn of our playmaker for the past 3 seasons needed to make use of his world class talent (one). The few of us who said it were ridiculed (probably by the same people who refuse to believe that Redknapp would've sanctioned Bale's move to Forest to Brum unless the chairman hadn't stepped in) but Bale himself offered the proof in his recent Telegraph interview.

AVB's greatest problem was (also) himself. If only he didn't have that aspergers-y slight sort of reaction to pressure...

Never wanted to lurch back to Harry as its been done to death as we all know. My point was merely to question that if you are going to praise AVB's methods for a record points total (which, as I said at the time, ultimately meant nothing as we finished 5th) then you should rightly praise another manager who's methods got us top 4 twice and to the quarter finals of the champions league.

Those are facts. Anything else we choose to discuss is opinion. Why did Harry want the England job ? He's an old school manager from an era where being England manager meant the biggest pinnacle of your career. Of course I was as ****ed off as anyone when his head was turned and we collapsed when we were on the brink of something truely special. Im still angry to this day knowing where we could have been. But the truth is, that Harry "failing" has still been more successful then the following 3 managers after him (so far). I know what position I would rather be in right now.

 

[milo]

Never wanted to lurch back to Harry as its been done to death as we all know. My point was merely to question that if you are going to praise AVB's methods for a record points total (which, as I said at the time, ultimately meant nothing as we finished 5th) then you should rightly praise another manager who's methods got us top 4 twice and to the quarter finals of the champions league.

Those are facts. Anything else we choose to discuss is opinion. Why did Harry want the England job ? He's an old school manager from an era where being England manager meant the biggest pinnacle of your career. Of course I was as ****ed off as anyone when his head was turned and we collapsed when we were on the brink of something truely special. Im still angry to this day knowing where we could have been. But the truth is, that Harry "failing" has still been more successful then the following 3 managers after him (so far). I know what position I would rather be in right now.

My problem with this debate is why does it always have to be Redknapp v AVB? Both of them had their strengths and weaknesses. Both of them did well for us to an extent and both of them shot themselves in the foot with their character flaws.

 

[thfcsteff]

Never wanted to lurch back to Harry as its been done to death as we all know. My point was merely to question that if you are going to praise AVB's methods for a record points total (which, as I said at the time, ultimately meant nothing as we finished 5th) then you should rightly praise another manager who's methods got us top 4 twice and to the quarter finals of the champions league.

Those are facts. Anything else we choose to discuss is opinion. Why did Harry want the England job ? He's an old school manager from an era where being England manager meant the biggest pinnacle of your career. Of course I was as ****ed off as anyone when his head was turned and we collapsed when we were on the brink of something truely special. Im still angry to this day knowing where we could have been. But the truth is, that Harry "failing" has still been more successful then the following 3 managers after him (so far). I know what position I would rather be in right now.

Fair enough mate, obviously there's much I don't agree with there, but some of it I certainly do. Appreciate the answers to the questions...let's hope that whatever we think of the past, the present (and future) can start picking right up!

 

[scaramanga]

... if you are going to praise AVB's methods for a record points total (which, as I said at the time, ultimately meant nothing as we finished 5th) then you should rightly praise another manager who's methods got us top 4 twice and to the quarter finals of the champions league.

Not when you're hiding most of the true story.

'Arry had at least two more world class players the AVB did. He underachieved with the team he had, AVB performed pretty much as expected with the team he had.

So it's perfectly sensible to praise one and criticise the other as context is everything. If you're going to ignore context then the manager whose team just won the local Sunday League is better than the pair of them because he won the league right?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Not when you're hiding most of the true story.

'Arry had at least two more world class players the AVB did. He underachieved with the team he had, AVB performed pretty much as expected with the team he had.

So it's perfectly sensible to praise one and criticise the other as context is everything. If you're going to ignore context then the manager whose team just won the local Sunday League is better than the pair of them because he won the league right?

We had the 6th highest wage bill at the time and we finished 4th.

Arsenal lost Van Persie don't forget, he was a better player at the time than anyone we lost. They also lost Alex Song who was a vital player for them.

In both seasons we under performed. We should have finished 3rd under Redknapp and 4th under AVB.

Did we underachieve by reaching the last 8 of the CL?

 

[shaney]

Fair enough mate, obviously there's much I don't agree with there, but some of it I certainly do. Appreciate the answers to the questions...let's hope that whatever we think of the past, the present (and future) can start picking right up!

Appreciate your response Steff. I know we dont agree on much but I always find your posts and debates interesting. At the end of the day we both want the best for our club. Lets hope its s good one tonight.

 

[thfcsteff]

Appreciate your response Steff. I know we dont agree on much but I always find your posts and debates interesting. At the end of the day we both want the best for our club. Lets hope its s good one tonight.

k:
Agreed mate, agreed...and the same for yours, they always get my brain rumbling which is no bad thing given how it doesn't work hard enough usually for anything!!!

 

[DTA]

Not when you're hiding most of the true story.

'Arry had at least two more world class players the AVB did. He underachieved with the team he had, AVB performed pretty much as expected with the team he had.

So it's perfectly sensible to praise one and criticise the other as context is everything. If you're going to ignore context then the manager whose team just won the local Sunday League is better than the pair of them because he won the league right?

King and modric right? You can't be talking about vdv because avb sold him. King is my favorite all time spurs player but in his last season especially toward the end of it, he was wasn't world class, not even close. that leaves just modric. Who I will readily admit was hugely missed. But factor into the fact that bale turned from world class to the third best player in the world... And I would say that the squads were not that far off in terms of raw talent. So why not replace modric... We tried didn't we but failed to get Avbs first choice on the last day... So where was avbs back up plan? Where was the cover for moutinio? Even if we got him, would it not have been a good idea to get an understudy if he was so central to the way avb wanted us to play? A player of the same ilk but just not as good?

 

[Modric THFC]

This camt be the same guy we had

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...ion-after-more-racist-abuse-against-Tottenham

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...rsburg-fans-demand-non-white-gay-players.html

He may have been a gutless manager here but at least he has his principles

 

[scaramanga]

This camt be the same guy we had

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/foot...ion-after-more-racist-abuse-against-Tottenham

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...rsburg-fans-demand-non-white-gay-players.html

He may have been a gutless manager here but at least he has his principles

I don't understand what the second story has to do with AVB

 

[scaramanga]

King and modric right? You can't be talking about vdv because avb sold him. King is my favorite all time spurs player but in his last season especially toward the end of it, he was wasn't world class, not even close. that leaves just modric. Who I will readily admit was hugely missed. But factor into the fact that bale turned from world class to the third best player in the world... And I would say that the squads were not that far off in terms of raw talent. So why not replace modric... We tried didn't we but failed to get Avbs first choice on the last day... So where was avbs back up plan? Where was the cover for moutinio? Even if we got him, would it not have been a good idea to get an understudy if he was so central to the way avb wanted us to play? A player of the same ilk but just not as good?

King got run into the ground, just like most of our other players.

As for the backup for Moutinho - isn't that why we have a DoF system? Dinotard MkI may have ruined what we had when he got all nervous that a professional would show him up and stop any dodgy dealings but I'm pretty sure AVB was head coach.

 

[Jurgen the German]

King got run into the ground, just like most of our other players.

As for the backup for Moutinho - isn't that why we have a DoF system? Dinotard MkI may have ruined what we had when he got all nervous that a professional would show him up and stop any dodgy dealings but I'm pretty sure AVB was head coach.

As opposed to Ramos who played King only in UEFA Cup games when we were struggling in the league and needed our best defender.