AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[indianspur]

I agree that we're not really a possession-based team. Or at least that's not our strength.

Honestly I don't think we're suited to it, because being a possession-based team generally involves your nominal wide midfielders actually drifting into the centre, to come closer to the ball. I was at the WBA game, and at times there was a HUGE space in the centre of the pitch as Bale and Lennon were hugging the touchline and Defoe was playing on the shoulder of the last defender. It's hard to keep possession (aside from knocking it between defenders and CMs) when your players are so spread out.

The thing that worries me about AVB is that he seems to have a system that he wants to implement, rather than implementing a system that suits his players. With Bale, Lennon, Adebayor and Dembele we could be absolutely vicious on the counter-attack. AVB seems to prefer a style in which you up the tempo when you don't have the ball and slow it down when you do; I think we're far more suited to doing the opposite.

=D>

baffles me why he doesnt utilise this speed and have us as experts on the counter attack

 

[NWND]

=D>

baffles me why he doesnt utilise this speed and have us as experts on the counter attack

Being fair to AVB one of the first things he said was that he didn't want to stop us doing what was so effective last season, in that we counter attack with speed. But he said he wanted us to be even more aggressive on the counter and win the ball higher up the pitch before counter attacking with more purpose.

However every really top side needs a balance.

Man Utd are a perfect example, they are primarily a counter-attacking side, but they will practice a patience build-up too. A key thing here is that they will break quickly when an opponent's counter attack breaks down, so they will be back on the edge of their opponents area very quickly, but if there aren't options on, they won't just fire in a cross or pass inside to a heavily marked centre-forward and hope for the best like we often did over the last few seasons, they will check back, switch play or slow it down to probe. They don't just go hell-for-leather, which is what i'd describe our style over the last few seasons as.

We often created a lot of pressure and half-chances but so often didn't have the killer instinct to finish teams off.

Part of that is doing it with more intelligence. Therefore I feel AVB is trying to get the players to slow it down a tad and look for options but as that article has alluded to, without Dempsey, Dembele and Ade in the team, often the options just weren't there!

 

[metalgear]

theres also the need for players to gel together.
you can only train so much; on the pitch in a real game the little telepathic gambles is where it all pays off.
dembele and dempsey don't need much to gel
and having seen dembele do his thing i'm sure the players will happily surrender initiative to him.

i believe we will see a different - much improved - spurs next game

 

[joey55]

Am I the only one he thought we used to win the ball back comparatively early anyway? Now chalkboards have gone is there any other site where we can see what areas we were winning the ball back last season and compare that to Chelsea under AVB and us so far this season? I keep reading about us winning the ball back higher up the pitch, but is there any evidence of this actually happening, or is it a case of our fans seeing what they have read is part of AVBs philosophy?

I distinctly remember a Graham Hunter interview on Revista when he said Ramos likes to play a high line. After that interview loads of our fans commented how they'd noticed we were playing a higher line. But when I checked compared to the previous season under Jol, there was no evidence of it at all. Yet, as they'd heard it, many fans then saw it. Could it be the same with us winning the ball back higher up the pitch? If you've been told that it's part of a managers philosophy and you then see examples of it, it's only natural you see it as evidence of change. But if you weren't particularly looking out for it in the past, how do you know there really is a difference?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Being fair to AVB one of the first things he said was that he didn't want to stop us doing what was so effective last season, in that we counter attack with speed. But he said he wanted us to be even more aggressive on the counter and win the ball higher up the pitch before counter attacking with more purpose.

However every really top side needs a balance.

Man Utd are a perfect example, they are primarily a counter-attacking side, but they will practice a patience build-up too. A key thing here is that they will break quickly when an opponent's counter attack breaks down, so they will be back on the edge of their opponents area very quickly, but if there aren't options on, they won't just fire in a cross or pass inside to a heavily marked centre-forward and hope for the best like we often did over the last few seasons, they will check back, switch play or slow it down to probe. They don't just go hell-for-leather, which is what i'd describe our style over the last few seasons as.

We often created a lot of pressure and half-chances but so often didn't have the killer instinct to finish teams off.

Part of that is doing it with more intelligence. Therefore I feel AVB is trying to get the players to slow it down a tad and look for options but as that article has alluded to, without Dempsey, Dembele and Ade in the team, often the options just weren't there!

Agreed. I think one of the things with an intelligent, team based system is that you probe for the high percentage opportunity. If you win the ball, and the opportunity is there for the counter attack, then take it. I think even a possession, patient system 'allows' that, because that is the high percentage opportunity. But if it isn't on, don't force it, probe and wait. It will come. An opposition player will slip up. A gap will appear. There will be an opportunity to get one of our players one on one with their marker. They are only human so it will happen.

So I don't know what went on in the player's minds against Norwich. If AVB still wants us to get the ball to Bale and Lennon quickly, then we should do it. But if we are going to be patient, then we need to do that too. Maybe the issue is the players were not used to recognising what was happening in the game. They weren't adept at knowing when was best to be patient and when was best to explode forward. If it's possible to slip Bale or Lennon in, then do it. If it's not, recognise that and adjust, get forward into more central positions and support the striker.

For what it's worth, I think Bale can absolutely playing an inside forward role and support the striker. Yes he is good bursting down the wing, but he is such a talent that he is strong, he's intelligent, he's good in the air, and he is a good finisher. If he knows when to get central I think he will be really successful there. Lennon, maybe not so much. But then again. maybe he can. Maybe once the team are used to knowing when to exploit the opportunities, we will find Lennon in good positions and see him adept at getting on the ball in the box.

Maybe that's all it will take for us to start flying properly. It must be tough to know in a competitive game when the other team are well drilled and playing a way they are comfortable with, when to hit the forward players quickly and went to be more patient. It can't be easy for players in a high pressurised game to know exactly what to do and how to adjust to each subtle scenario in a game. That kind of stuff will take time. Maybe having a really bad game like Norwich will be good for us in the long run, because now the players have a reference point. It was clear what they should have been doing at certain points in the game and clear what they didn't do.

Here's to the upcoming 10 game winning streak!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Am I the only one he thought we used to win the ball back comparatively early anyway? Now chalkboards have gone is there any other site where we can see what areas we were winning the ball back last season and compare that to Chelsea under AVB and us so far this season? I keep reading about us winning the ball back higher up the pitch, but is there any evidence of this actually happening, or is it a case of our fans seeing what they have read is part of AVBs philosophy?

I distinctly remember a Graham Hunter interview on Revista when he said Ramos likes to play a high line. After that interview loads of our fans commented how they'd noticed we were playing a higher line. But when I checked compared to the previous season under Jol, there was no evidence of it at all. Yet, as they'd heard it, many fans then saw it. Could it be the same with us winning the ball back higher up the pitch? If you've been told that it's part of a managers philosophy and you then see examples of it, it's only natural you see it as evidence of change. But if you weren't particularly looking out for it in the past, how do you know there really is a difference?

It's weird, I don't think we've gone all the way with a high line or winning the ball back quickly yet. Against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, we were definitely doing it. Against West Brom, we had a good first half where they didn't come at us much and against Norwich, we weren't pressing high at all. We dropped to pretty much just in front of the half way line when Norwich had it.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Its hard to counter attack at pace when teams naturally sit off of you because you are so good at possession in the first two thirds.

I think this change is a necessity - set up to actually break teams down - as was our failing so often over the last few seasons.

Counter attacking is great, if you can temp the opponent into coming at you.

If they are scared of what you can do they wont, which nullifies counter attacking.

I like the idea of playing in such a way we can break down 10 men behind the ball sides. Counter attacking will always be an option if the opportunity presents itself. Rather be prepared for either option than specialise in one and fail at the other,

 

[elltrev]

Its hard to counter attack at pace when teams naturally sit off of you because you are so good at possession in the first two thirds.

I think this change is a necessity - set up to actually break teams down - as was our failing so often over the last few seasons.

Counter attacking is great, if you can temp the opponent into coming at you.

If they are scared of what you can do they wont, which nullifies counter attacking.

I like the idea of playing in such a way we can break down 10 men behind the ball sides. Counter attacking will always be an option if the opportunity presents itself. Rather be prepared for either option than specialise in one and fail at the other,

I agree to an extent. The trouble is we've lost Modric, VDV and Kranjcar - three players who arguably excelled at breaking down deep, defensive teams. What attacking players do we now have that really excel at playing in tight spaces and making intricate and creative passes?

If we are looking to break teams down I would still like to see Bale played as a very attacking left-back, with Dempsey playing as a left-midfielder who drifts inside and tries to get into goalscoring positions.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Actually, arguably, they didnt. VDV and Modric in particular were mainstays of a team with a chronic inability to break down deep defensive lines.

I also think if the players we have now are more adept at playing to a specific shape, in a specific way, they could well be very effective.

Movement is a bigger key than individual skill/passing ability IMO.

 

[joey55]

Its hard to counter attack at pace when teams naturally sit off of you because you are so good at possession in the first two thirds.

I think this change is a necessity - set up to actually break teams down - as was our failing so often over the last few seasons.

Counter attacking is great, if you can temp the opponent into coming at you.

If they are scared of what you can do they wont, which nullifies counter attacking.

I like the idea of playing in such a way we can break down 10 men behind the ball sides. Counter attacking will always be an option if the opportunity presents itself. Rather be prepared for either option than specialise in one and fail at the other,

But that is about players and not style. It's why we looked to by Cazorla and Mata. Players like Lennon, Bale and Adebayor just aren't suited to playing in tight spaces. Their main skill sets are more physical, as opposed to technical. To break down teams who sit back, you need players who can pass and receive that ball in tight spaces. At the end of the day if a team has a line of 5 across the midfield and 4 across the back and there are camped deep in their own half, you have to have players who can play between those lines, which is an extremely small area. Ideally we need a very technical striker and an attacking midfielder, like Silva, Carzola or Mata, who are extremely gifted at playing the incisive passes with one or two touches, that can open teams up in when they are very compact.

We had VDV and Modric, but really needed another plus the striker. Now we've got Dembele who has the skill to create space, but we are still lacking a couple of other really top quality, technical attacking players. The trouble is they cost a fortune. City have Aguero, Silva and Nasri and they were able to break teams down, but they cost a combined £85 million and are on insane wages. We can talk about the need to break teams down and discuss all manners of tactical approaches, but ultimately if teams sit deep, in means little space and to open them up players of real ingenuity are needed. At the moment, other than Dembele, I don't see anyone in our squad who can really has that ability to unlock a defence on a regular basis. Some may argue Sig can, but though we can see on Youtube he can be a clever passer, I'm not sure he could do it regularly when teams sit back as they do against us.

 

[NWND]

I actually think Dembele can be key to our ability to break stubborn teams down more-so than even Modric and VDV. VDV in particular was more of a passer and mover so didn't necessarily contribute much to breaking a stubborn 2 banks of 4 stance down. Modric was better at it, because he could ghost past players, but Modric tended to release the ball early from deep and was rarely a 'final assister'.

From what i've seen Dembele can be very direct and beats players, and its this kind of forward-thinking dribbler from central positions that is going to help us a lot in these games.

You could even see it against Norwich. Norwich were well-drilled, comfortable, set their stall out and we were looking clueless as to how to break them down. Indeed, we got suckered on the counter a few times and Freidel had to keep us in it as we were getting more and more frustrated.

Dembele comes on and he drops a shoulder, moves past 2 or 3 Norwich players on the edge of the box, gets into a dangerous position and fires it into the goal out of absolutely nothing! hopefully there's more of that to come as we haven't really had a player that could do things like that from midfield regularly since ginola IMO.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Actually, arguably, they didnt. VDV and Modric in particular were mainstays of a team with a chronic inability to break down deep defensive lines.

I also think if the players we have now are more adept at playing to a specific shape, in a specific way, they could well be very effective.

Movement is a bigger key than individual skill/passing ability IMO.

Agreed. I think Modric could fit into a team that needs to break deep defending teams down, and so could VDV, but to say that the reason we are struggling is because they have gone is false IMO.

Last season is should have been, that if teams come at us, we hit them with Bale and Lennon on the break. If they drop off of us, they invite Modric and Rafa closer to their penalty area where they can in theory cause more damage.

But it didn't work like that. Many, many times we failed to break teams down, when Modric and Rafa were on the pitch, because we were forced to play patiently and didn't seem to be able to do it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

But that is about players and not style. It's why we looked to by Cazorla and Mata. Players like Lennon, Bale and Adebayor just aren't suited to playing in tight spaces. Their main skill sets are more physical, as opposed to technical. To break down teams who sit back, you need players who can pass and receive that ball in tight spaces. At the end of the day if a team has a line of 5 across the midfield and 4 across the back and there are camped deep in their own half, you have to have players who can play between those lines, which is an extremely small area. Ideally we need a very technical striker and an attacking midfielder, like Silva, Carzola or Mata, who are extremely gifted at playing the incisive passes with one or two touches, that can open teams up in when they are very compact.

We had VDV and Modric, but really needed another plus the striker. Now we've got Dembele who has the skill to create space, but we are still lacking a couple of other really top quality, technical attacking players. The trouble is they cost a fortune. City have Aguero, Silva and Nasri and they were able to break teams down, but they cost a combined £85 million and are on insane wages. We can talk about the need to break teams down and discuss all manners of tactical approaches, but ultimately if teams sit deep, in means little space and to open them up players of real ingenuity are needed. At the moment, other than Dembele, I don't see anyone in our squad who can really has that ability to unlock a defence on a regular basis. Some may argue Sig can, but though we can see on Youtube he can be a clever passer, I'm not sure he could do it regularly when teams sit back as they do against us.

I think learning how to be patient, and learning how and when to move, to recognise which move is going to be the best for which situation, can definitely have a help. But I also think Bale and Ade can definitely play in tight spaces. I maintain Lennon is capable of doing it too, because I think he does use the ball well. It just needs the team to recognise when to use which particular bit of skill they need to use.

 

[africanspurs]

can i just say that the last few pages have brought about some of the best discussions i have seen on here in ages.

very remenicent of an older GG

great stuff guys

 

[ringo]

But that is about players and not style. It's why we looked to by Cazorla and Mata. Players like Lennon, Bale and Adebayor just aren't suited to playing in tight spaces. Their main skill sets are more physical, as opposed to technical. To break down teams who sit back, you need players who can pass and receive that ball in tight spaces. At the end of the day if a team has a line of 5 across the midfield and 4 across the back and there are camped deep in their own half, you have to have players who can play between those lines, which is an extremely small area. Ideally we need a very technical striker and an attacking midfielder, like Silva, Carzola or Mata, who are extremely gifted at playing the incisive passes with one or two touches, that can open teams up in when they are very compact.

We had VDV and Modric, but really needed another plus the striker. Now we've got Dembele who has the skill to create space, but we are still lacking a couple of other really top quality, technical attacking players. The trouble is they cost a fortune. City have Aguero, Silva and Nasri and they were able to break teams down, but they cost a combined £85 million and are on insane wages. We can talk about the need to break teams down and discuss all manners of tactical approaches, but ultimately if teams sit deep, in means little space and to open them up players of real ingenuity are needed. At the moment, other than Dembele, I don't see anyone in our squad who can really has that ability to unlock a defence on a regular basis. Some may argue Sig can, but though we can see on Youtube he can be a clever passer, I'm not sure he could do it regularly when teams sit back as they do against us.

This is exactly right. And it is made worse when you play a high pressing game as you win the ball back in tight space rather than breaking out of your own half in a more end to end game. As it stands, other than Dembele, possibly Sig, maybe Carroll, Townsend, we don't have the players that suit this type of game. Which is why I think AVB will have to adapt or get sacked. (or buy in January).

On tempo, Barcelona are the standard which every team that wants to play this way should aspire to. It is not only the keeping the ball that wins the game, it is what they do with it, and the tempo they play at. With Barca they mix up the tempo, draw the opposition on to them, and then strike. If you just watch Messi and noone else during a game , he spends a large part of the game walking around in the final third, ambling between the lines, but then will suddenly make a run -goal.

 

[thfcsteff]

this was always a problem under Redknapp and now also under AVB....stats always showed plenty of attempts on goal, but how many are/were genuine goalscoring chances created by good attacking moves

a problem that i dont see being resolved anytime soon

Great question by African and yourself with regards to quality of chances created (stats are often misleading of course) but even drawing on just memory, I can think of two clear clear chances first day of the season, two more clear ones at home to West Brom and several very clear ones last season. On memory alone, we were very much let down by a lack of clinical finishing.

Another interesting thing to ponder would be how many times we worked the space for a good shooting opportunity only to not take it? I saw that far far too many times last season, and was greatly encouraged to see Dembele not only shift himself into a half-shooting chance but to shoot low and fast; the speed with which he took that shot was excellent, and oftentimes last season I lamented the fact that we did not try one more often when there was something to aim at. I wonder if the players who have come in will all shoot on site a little more?

 

[thfcsteff]

Some fine points here. I personally believe that Bale needs next-level coaching to become the world star he could be. I hope AVB is up to it and Bale is able to gauge it, because IF he can learn how to work PROPERLY inside as well as out, he will be devastating in a Ronaldo-esque way. But it is, as mentioned earlier, very very important we learn to dominate matches as opposed to take them on the break with devastating pace. It will require patience, but again, I agree wholeheartedly that we need to find a long term answer to the deep defending that stifles our team when they meet sides lower down the league...

 

[joey55]

Some fine points here. I personally believe that Bale needs next-level coaching to become the world star he could be. I hope AVB is up to it and Bale is able to gauge it, because IF he can learn how to work PROPERLY inside as well as out, he will be devastating in a Ronaldo-esque way. But it is, as mentioned earlier, very very important we learn to dominate matches as opposed to take them on the break with devastating pace. It will require patience, but again, I agree wholeheartedly that we need to find a long term answer to the deep defending that stifles our team when they meet sides lower down the league...

I'm quite curious as to who you would describe as a "next level" coach. Can you give me a couple of examples?

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm quite curious as to who you would describe as a "next level" coach. Can you give me a couple of examples?

I always thought Ancelotti, Mourinho and Team Ferguson (SAF works with fine coaches and is a fine manager, thus I wouldn't separate them). Guardiola would also have been in there despite only having been at Barca, as I feel he could really give Bale the confidence to do the simple things even better than he does them (keeping shape, moving around the pitch and making runs/passes at the right times being principle). Bale is a great player right now with bristling potential to be even better. I am hopeful AVB can do this for him too, but we'll see...

For what its worth I genuinely think we'd have won the league with Ancelotti in charge last year, but it's all conjecture now obviously!

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I always thought Ancelotti, Mourinho and Team Ferguson (SAF works with fine coaches and is a fine manager, thus I wouldn't separate them). Guardiola would also have been in there despite only having been at Barca, as I feel he could really give Bale the confidence to do the simple things even better than he does them (keeping shape, moving around the pitch and making runs/passes at the right times being principle). Bale is a great player right now with bristling potential to be even better. I am hopeful AVB can do this for him too, but we'll see...

For what its worth I genuinely think we'd have won the league with Ancelotti in charge last year, but it's all conjecture now obviously!

Can you tell me why you rate Ancelotti so much considering his less than special first season with PSG and also his last season at Chelsea, when they looked like they could finish 5th for a time, they had a very shaky run.

I know he has won things but people seem to view him as a success guarantor, almost on the level of Mourinho. I just don't get it. He's shown with PSG he would need time like any other manager to implement his ideas.