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Another shooting in Murica

The reaction to this murder over the past 20 hours has been pretty eye opening.

It has shown up even further than I thought how tribal politics has become in the USA and wider society.

That’s levelled at both sides of the political spectrum.

His messaging was a mix of good and bad. I have seen quite a bit. Is that not human nature ? We are not all perfect ? I’m pretty sure that we all have mixed views on all sorts of subjects. Some will find good/bad in equal measure at different points of our lives.

The rhetoric in politics these days is pretty extreme , fascist , Nazi , Commie .

You hear it all the time so something like this was bound to happen. If this is being pumped into people’s eyes and ears constantly.

History teaches us that the last three decades have been pretty stable in our lifetimes or certainly post fall of the wall in the 80s but we’d be naive to think we can’t head towards darker more turbulent times in future.

Incidents and murders and unrest we are seeing lately is a worry we are moving towards a period of unrest.
 
Diamond Lights said:
that's another bug bear of mine.

The whole wearing of the cross and espousing Bible verses whilst ignoring some of the other fundamental parts of the Bible. it's just pick what you like and ignore the rest to go "it's in the Bible". Many love to bring Christ in to suit their narrative. Rees-Mogg did it constantly.
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Bringing Christ in will probably bring more money in.....it's that simple.
 
djp82 said:
The reaction to this murder over the past 20 hours has been pretty eye opening.

It has shown up even further than I thought how tribal politics has become in the USA and wider society.

That’s levelled at both sides of the political spectrum.

His messaging was a mix of good and bad. I have seen quite a bit. Is that not human nature ? We are not all perfect ? I’m pretty sure that we all have mixed views on all sorts of subjects. Some will find good/bad in equal measure at different points of our lives.

The rhetoric in politics these days is pretty extreme , fascist , Nazi , Commie .

You hear it all the time so something like this was bound to happen. If this is being pumped into people’s eyes and ears constantly.

History teaches us that the last three decades have been pretty stable in our lifetimes or certainly post fall of the wall in the 80s but we’d be naive to think we can’t head towards darker more turbulent times in future.

Incidents and murders and unrest we are seeing lately is a worry we are moving towards a period of unrest.
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We are well into darker and more turbulent times. Kirk helped us down that path in his small way.

To me the right is way more liable of using extreme rhetoric. Kirk was very much a part of that.

Statements like: "the great replacement is not a theory, it's a reality".

Or "Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them".

That to me is way past "mix of good and bad, we are not all perfect". Not calling him a nazi, that would be too much. But that's some real nazi brick to be saying.

Fascist. Sure. I don't see an issue with calling him a fascist.
 
Perfect opportunity to further ramp up the authoritarianism, and it gets Epstein off the front pages.

Interesting coincidences, for sure.
 
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braineclipse said:
We are well into darker and more turbulent times. Kirk helped us down that path in his small way.

To me the right is way more liable of using extreme rhetoric. Kirk was very much a part of that.

Statements like: "the great replacement is not a theory, it's a reality".

Or "Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them".

That to me is way past "mix of good and bad, we are not all perfect". Not calling him a nazi, that would be too much. But that's some real nazi brick to be saying.

Fascist. Sure. I don't see an issue with calling him a fascist.
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See that’s where I don’t agree. The left are equally as culpable in where we are.

Yes he may well have taken us towards it.

That’s clearly antisemitism. We are seeing that daily from the left aswell with regards to Isreal and Palestine. I’ve seen it from both political sides.

That’s why I feel we are lost at the moment.


With regards to Fascist , Nazi etc it’s thrown about way too much for far less horrid opinions than the quote posted above. It’s problematic.
 
braineclipse said:
We are well into darker and more turbulent times. Kirk helped us down that path in his small way.

To me the right is way more liable of using extreme rhetoric. Kirk was very much a part of that.

Statements like: "the great replacement is not a theory, it's a reality".

Or "Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of hatred against whites that they claim to want people to stop using against them".

That to me is way past "mix of good and bad, we are not all perfect". Not calling him a nazi, that would be too much. But that's some real nazi brick to be saying.

Fascist. Sure. I don't see an issue with calling him a fascist.
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I think people are being disingenuous with the tone of "all he wanted to do was debate"
 
djp82 said:
See that’s where I don’t agree. The left are equally as culpable in where we are.

Yes he may well have taken us towards it.

That’s clearly antisemitism. We are seeing that daily from the left aswell with regards to Isreal and Palestine. I’ve seen it from both political sides.

That’s why I feel we are lost at the moment.


With regards to Fascist , Nazi etc it’s thrown about way too much for far less horrid opinions than the quote posted above. It’s problematic.
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I agree with alot of that and the sentiment

All I would say is I'm hard pressed to see the sheer volume of the same on the left of what there is on the right. With that I mean we have so many Right wing vocal and dangerous grifters out there in public, the same can't be said about the left IMO.
I can't even think of anyone who isn't outwardly as divisive as say Tommy Robinson here on the left, thats before you include Lawrence, Middleton, Farage etc.

Maybe I'm wrong, I just see it as being much more weaponised and monetised with the Extreme Right
 
djp82 said:
See that’s where I don’t agree. The left are equally as culpable in where we are.

Yes he may well have taken us towards it.

That’s clearly antisemitism. We are seeing that daily from the left aswell with regards to Isreal and Palestine. I’ve seen it from both political sides.

That’s why I feel we are lost at the moment.


With regards to Fascist , Nazi etc it’s thrown about way too much for far less horrid opinions than the quote posted above. It’s problematic.
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Who from the left and who from the right?

I'm not denying that there is extremist rhetoric from the left for sure.

Particularly in the US that extremist rhetoric is coming from people with real power and influence. From the president to Kirk to many others. I don't see anything of a similar magnitude from the people with real power and influence on the left.
 
Robbo said:
A swift and powerful response to political violence, just like when those two Democratic lawmakers were assasinated...oh wait.

It's the relentless us vs them polarization that's creating the space for acts like these to happen.

It's deeply tragic for his family and the country, but I'm not at all surprised.
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That people fail to see that it's the utter hypocrisy, and not that "it's ok to kill who you think is bad" that is the thing here, is mind boggling. Trump couldn't even be bothered to write a condemnation or support tweet - well, not a tweet he wrote himself, and GHod knows he has no problem tweeting - when Pelosi was attacked (Trump jr. even joked about it publically) and when the congresswoman and her husband was killed, but demands an entire nation fly half mast when an influencer is killed. And that's just 3 months back.

No wonder we have problems solving anything in society today, when people dig trenches as long as it's "one of their own", but don't give a brick or worse if it's one of the "others". Thing is, the same people can be both or even multiple levels, dependant on situation. And in the US, the default is to fall back on race, one of the least important thing anyone can have in common, alongside what they like for breakfast and the size of their ears. That is why it's so stupid and even dangerous to be so adamant about anything political, the snake you paid for may very well strangle you. The entire Trump administration seems hell bent on, not doing what's best for the, but what is the opposite of what the Dems wants or believe in or reversing legislations the Dems have achieved. Democrats like puppies? Let's forbid puppies then. One of "you" gets killed. No biggie. One of "us" gets killed? The entire nation has to mourn.
 
braineclipse said:
Who from the left and who from the right?

I'm not denying that there is extremist rhetoric from the left for sure.

Particularly in the US that extremist rhetoric is coming from people with real power and influence. From the president to Kirk to many others. I don't see anything of a similar magnitude from the people with real power and influence on the left.
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I was generalising in terms of on the left.

You don’t have to look to hard in terms of antisemitism from the left who are talking about Gaza. They can’t separate the Jewish faith from Isreal.

Take the people who oppose the Trans men in women’s spaces and sports. There’s some horrific stuff aimed at them.

In terms of a single mouthpiece I’d say there’s a few wronguns you come across on X who spout pretty horrific stuff. You are both correct nothing as prominent as Farage and Robinson tho.

look at the glee in this murder it’s been shameful online from a load of people of the so called left.

There’s macarons on both sides of the political spectrum but I suppose what I was driving at was I just felt the division being highlighted in recent events all over the world is scary and only seems to be getting wider and darker.

We need to wind back some of the rhetoric and try to find some other way than this political tribalism. I don’t agree with your politics there for you are my enemy.
 
djp82 said:
I was generalising in terms of on the left.

You don’t have to look to hard in terms of antisemitism from the left who are talking about Gaza. They can’t separate the Jewish faith from Isreal.

Take the people who oppose the Trans men in women’s spaces and sports. There’s some horrific stuff aimed at them.

In terms of a single mouthpiece I’d say there’s a few wronguns you come across on X who spout pretty horrific stuff. You are both correct nothing as prominent as Farage and Robinson tho.

look at the glee in this murder it’s been shameful online from a load of people of the so called left.

There’s macarons on both sides of the political spectrum but I suppose what I was driving at was I just felt the division being highlighted in recent events all over the world is scary and only seems to be getting wider and darker.

We need to wind back some of the rhetoric and try to find some other way than this political tribalism. I don’t agree with your politics there for you are my enemy.
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I'm not talking about a horrific mouthpiece, I'm sure they exist. I'm talking about the people with real power and influence, like Kirk.

Or to put it differently. Imagine the right and the left were equally culpable on this. Not just the social media influencers (who seem to at least easily be matched on the right). Imagine a world where there's a left wing equal (on extremist rhetoric) with similar power and influence to Trump, JD Vance, Kirk and his ilk, Stephen Miller, Tucker Carlsson etc etc etc.

Then it would be both sides and the polarisation would be way stronger than it is now imo.
 
djp82 said:
We need to wind back some of the rhetoric and try to find some other way than this political tribalism. I don’t agree with your politics there for you are my enemy.
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It's the single worst thing I hate in the Israel Palestine situation, rather than people acknowledge that Hamas are wrong and Netty is wrong and that everyone else is victim, people are picking sides like it's a football match.
 
glasgowspur said:
If killing Netanyahu would stop what is happening in Gazza would you sanction it.
Or putin stop the Ukraine war.

Purely rhetorical of course because life isn't that simple.
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No. Someone else would replace and they would be just as bad. The Likud party is innately genocidal.
 
djp82 said:
There’s macarons on both sides of the political spectrum but I suppose what I was driving at was I just felt the division being highlighted in recent events all over the world is scary and only seems to be getting wider and darker.

We need to wind back some of the rhetoric and try to find some other way than this political tribalism. I don’t agree with your politics there for you are my enemy.
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Absolutely. What people need to realize is that politics isn't about doing good for everybody. As a politician in a functional democracy you are - representing - someone. If you want what's best for you, you first have to come to terms with who you REALLY are and what your life situation is. There's a Brit saying that the fastest way to convert someone from Labour to Tory is letting them win the lottery. If you're unemployed, low-paid or dependant on welfare, or value individual freedom, maybe far right isn't the best choice for you - no matter how much you hate the same (looking) people. I'm of course talking about the real political axis, not the neo-left-right axis that measures your hate for gays or dark persons. The same way that the far left isn't your ideal choice of goverment if you are the CEO of a huge corporation with a lot of underpaid workers. It's all about who you are, if not we may as well scrap elections altogether and go back to the feudal system - towards which we seem to be heading anyway.

And as we have recently held elections in Norway, I can even here see a clear ramp-up in the aggression in the messages, debates and rhetorics leading up to the elections. The US is now reaping what it sowed, by building their platform on alienating (literally), dividing and subjugating. There's absolutely no compromise, in real fascistic fashion. The scary part is this is now the new normal, and I cannot see how this is reversable in today's information climate.
 
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