Ange in or out?

[Muttley]

6. NEVER forget, elements of our support base were so obsessed with allowing City to beat us so as to ensure the goons did not win the title. Postecoglu was visibly taken aback by it. Toxic vibes everywhere. Those three points cost us CL football.

lol - one game against the league winners doesn't cost you CL football. We play 38 games a season.

It was 2 things for me. You won't be surprised to know one was mid-season injuries. The second was defending, especially set pieces and crosses. We conceded over 60 goals.

Ange's problem was that he made a big deal about it like he does most things. He bring the attention on himself. He should have just laughed it off and not feed the press on it. That's another learning curve for him.

 

[Muttley]

1. He lost Harry Kane on the eve of his first Prem match in charge. I will spare you the goal stats; you can look them up and see what that immediately took away.

2. He was not given a replacement/time to sign one.

Put together, these two were a massive success story. We score more goals without Kane and they came from more sources in the team. We also had 10 outfield players grafting, rather than 9.

I massively applauded Ange for this transition, even knowing that he was a squad player short until Solanke arrived. This actually built Ange's stock with the fans.

 

[Spoonman]

Fair enough, and I will admit that my comments on him were based on having to hurridly adapt to not playing out from the back because that's not his game, as opposed to a succession of errors. But yes, probably a bit harsh especially when considering those Europa games you flagged.

Fair play Steff, and the errors he made against United in that game were down to playing out from the back. I remember being surprised at how solid he was otherwise when he came into the team as I was bricking myself at the prospect beforehand!

 

[billyiddo]

This is what some people don't seem to comprehend, the majority of managers being suggested are at clubs with no European football - it's a totally different ball game when managing a club like ours with all of Europe and then the expectations. Only have to see what it's like on here when we have won a trophy. But hey ho....

So any manager who doesn't manage in European competition has to be discounted? How about the fact that Ange has had to sacrifice league football in order to navigate the knockouts - where's the evidence he can manage two games a week?

IDK why this particular point has cropped up as a decider recently, there are no sure things in football and ultimately you won't know how anyone will do until they have been given the chance - Pochettino had never managed a European team before coming coming here and managed to make 2 games a week work, unless someone has actually shown they can't cope with it then it shouldn't be held against them

 

[Muttley]

Some thoughts to share, starting back at the eve of Ange's first season, offering bullet points reasons behind what has been going on (from my perspective anyway) and concluding with why it is 'Ange In' for me...


1. He lost Harry Kane on the eve of his first Prem match in charge. I will spare you the goal stats; you can look them up and see what that immediately took away.

2. He was not given a replacement/time to sign one.

3. He was given a remit to be part of a CLUB-ORCHESRATED cultural change in both attitude and operation, which included bringing in new people above him to work between him and Levy.

4. The Chelsea match saw some bad luck. It also saw him take a stand; whether you liked that stand is personal choice.

5. The combination of World Cup hangover fatigue merged with pre-season and international tournaments meant that as we got into the New Year 2024, fatigue was starting to bed in.

6. NEVER forget, elements of our support base were so obsessed with allowing City to beat us so as to ensure the goons did not win the title. Postecoglu was visibly taken aback by it. Toxic vibes everywhere. Those three points cost us CL football.

7. Postecoglu and the staff/club made some mistakes coming into this season, both in terms of recruitment and planning. He has been very open about how pre-season should've been conducted differently in hindsight. Players such as Romero, off the back of yet another grueling summer tournament, needed a softer early season landing.

8. Despite trying early season rotation, the accumulation of overall football for several years led to an increase in injuries.

9. Once 'packs' of injuries happened, combined with the inexperience of our squad overall, the transfer window was vital. That injury crisis, BTW, was unique and unlike anything we will see again IMO.

10. Nobody expected a Vicario injury, and Forster was not the right backup. This was a major mistake made in the summer (not signing the right sort of backup), who knows exactly who was at fault there, but it cost us (to my mind) at least 9 points.

11. We only partially addressed our issues in January. Kinsky? Excellent signing. Tel? Potentially great but never going to be a short term bail out. We stuck with our remit as a club from summer 2023.

12. Once Postecoglu saw what the state of play was in the window, and once we lost to Liverpool in the CC, he has explained what some of us assumed, that he made a decision to focus on one tournament which would deliver both a trophy and CL football.

13. Some have questioned why he couldn't fight on two fronts from Feb onwards. I'm sure the reasons will be forthcoming in the weeks ahead, but put simply, between long-lay off players coming back and being rusty, to rotating in players who had not spent much time training with each other for some time due to said-injuries, to trying to protect the blue-chip players who he could absolutely rely on, he made the decision to focus on one competition.

14. Most teams in our pitiful league position would've seen mutiny within the dressing room by March. Indeed, the much venerated 'winner' Jose Mourinho managed to explode the dressing room so badly that he got sacked before a Final (yes, he really f-uc-king DID). Our dressing room went the opposite way, with players closing ranks despite the best efforts of pundits and journos to drag bits of gossip and back-talking out of them.

15. Postecoglu had been quietly tweaking his 'Angeball' for a few months from February; the media were so obsessed with how 'out of control' we were that they refused to acknowledge it.

16. Make no mistake; league performances were largely sloppy and (in a few specific cases) absolutely unacceptable with regards to the players. For the most part, we paid the price for silly individual errors, and lost the vast majority of our games by a single goal margin. again, there were certainly some awful performance in there, no argument.

17. You sensed by the time we played Frankfurt that the players buy-in with Postecoglu was pretty big. And as we've seen in the last two months, it has grown into something, well, historic for us.

18. We have seen that Postecoglu took an incredibly ballsy gamble, asked the players to buy-in, got their buy-in, and in doing so, both got rewarded for their efforts by winning the Europa League and getting into the CL. In doing so, and in taking THIS specific path with this group of players, it is hard not to assume that there has been a fortification and establishment of something very special in terms of belief. The buy-in will remain total in whatever he wants them to do. Providing we back him as HE wants to be backed, we should IMO persevere next season.

Ange in.

p.s. Ferguson was on the verge of the sack when he won the cup with Utd in 89/90. They finished their league season 13th, just 5 points above the relegation zone.

Great post by the way. Each item could be it's own topic.

I think we now need to remember that once this summer is complete we're converging towards a billion being spent on Ange's squad. It is as deep as I've ever known and if we add the couple of 1st team additions we could be in great shape. The 4-5 year post-Covid focus by the club has returned one major trophy. I would be shocked if we don't have more good days than bad in the next phase. There are too many right components in place now at all levels.

Of course, that does raise expectations on Ange to perform in role.

 

[Hotspur75]

Some thoughts to share, starting back at the eve of Ange's first season, offering bullet points reasons behind what has been going on (from my perspective anyway) and concluding with why it is 'Ange In' for me...


1. He lost Harry Kane on the eve of his first Prem match in charge. I will spare you the goal stats; you can look them up and see what that immediately took away.

2. He was not given a replacement/time to sign one.

3. He was given a remit to be part of a CLUB-ORCHESRATED cultural change in both attitude and operation, which included bringing in new people above him to work between him and Levy.

4. The Chelsea match saw some bad luck. It also saw him take a stand; whether you liked that stand is personal choice.

5. The combination of World Cup hangover fatigue merged with pre-season and international tournaments meant that as we got into the New Year 2024, fatigue was starting to bed in.

6. NEVER forget, elements of our support base were so obsessed with allowing City to beat us so as to ensure the goons did not win the title. Postecoglu was visibly taken aback by it. Toxic vibes everywhere. Those three points cost us CL football.

7. Postecoglu and the staff/club made some mistakes coming into this season, both in terms of recruitment and planning. He has been very open about how pre-season should've been conducted differently in hindsight. Players such as Romero, off the back of yet another grueling summer tournament, needed a softer early season landing.

8. Despite trying early season rotation, the accumulation of overall football for several years led to an increase in injuries.

9. Once 'packs' of injuries happened, combined with the inexperience of our squad overall, the transfer window was vital. That injury crisis, BTW, was unique and unlike anything we will see again IMO.

10. Nobody expected a Vicario injury, and Forster was not the right backup. This was a major mistake made in the summer (not signing the right sort of backup), who knows exactly who was at fault there, but it cost us (to my mind) at least 9 points.

11. We only partially addressed our issues in January. Kinsky? Excellent signing. Tel? Potentially great but never going to be a short term bail out. We stuck with our remit as a club from summer 2023.

12. Once Postecoglu saw what the state of play was in the window, and once we lost to Liverpool in the CC, he has explained what some of us assumed, that he made a decision to focus on one tournament which would deliver both a trophy and CL football.

13. Some have questioned why he couldn't fight on two fronts from Feb onwards. I'm sure the reasons will be forthcoming in the weeks ahead, but put simply, between long-lay off players coming back and being rusty, to rotating in players who had not spent much time training with each other for some time due to said-injuries, to trying to protect the blue-chip players who he could absolutely rely on, he made the decision to focus on one competition.

14. Most teams in our pitiful league position would've seen mutiny within the dressing room by March. Indeed, the much venerated 'winner' Jose Mourinho managed to explode the dressing room so badly that he got sacked before a Final (yes, he really f-uc-king DID). Our dressing room went the opposite way, with players closing ranks despite the best efforts of pundits and journos to drag bits of gossip and back-talking out of them.

15. Postecoglu had been quietly tweaking his 'Angeball' for a few months from February; the media were so obsessed with how 'out of control' we were that they refused to acknowledge it.

16. Make no mistake; league performances were largely sloppy and (in a few specific cases) absolutely unacceptable with regards to the players. For the most part, we paid the price for silly individual errors, and lost the vast majority of our games by a single goal margin. again, there were certainly some awful performance in there, no argument.

17. You sensed by the time we played Frankfurt that the players buy-in with Postecoglu was pretty big. And as we've seen in the last two months, it has grown into something, well, historic for us.

18. We have seen that Postecoglu took an incredibly ballsy gamble, asked the players to buy-in, got their buy-in, and in doing so, both got rewarded for their efforts by winning the Europa League and getting into the CL. In doing so, and in taking THIS specific path with this group of players, it is hard not to assume that there has been a fortification and establishment of something very special in terms of belief. The buy-in will remain total in whatever he wants them to do. Providing we back him as HE wants to be backed, we should IMO persevere next season.

Ange in.

p.s. Ferguson was on the verge of the sack when he won the cup with Utd in 89/90. They finished their league season 13th, just 5 points above the relegation zone.

I think no. 14 is the most crucial one, and the main reason why I am still Ange in. But it appears to me that on the back of this success, some difficult decisions need to be made, and at least some of the players who bought in to close ranks and support Ange, will have to be sold in order to progress.

The group of really good young players we have suggests that this triumph could be the making of something very good for the next couple of seasons at least. But for this to happen, it is vital that the right choices are made by the hierarchy this summer.

 

[harr1984]

So any manager who doesn't manage in European competition has to be discounted? How about the fact that Ange has had to sacrifice league football in order to navigate the knockouts - where's the evidence he can manage two games a week?

IDK why this particular point has cropped up as a decider recently, there are no sure things in football and ultimately you won't know how anyone will do until they have been given the chance - Pochettino had never managed a European team before coming coming here and managed to make 2 games a week work, unless someone has actually shown they can't cope with it then it shouldn't be held against them

I never said they should automatically be discounted did I? Just that there always appears to be (and not just since Ange has been in charge) this shinier, better manager who is not at Spurs who is apparently a better option.There is more money in the PL meaning the worse/mid level clubs are now closer to the big clubs than before - hence why clubs who are not in Europe are now challenging/getting into Europe via the league at those not in Europe.

Eg Forest this season, let's see how they fare next season. Saudi Sportswashing Machine the other season had a big fall off when in Europe. Suggestions of the Bournemouth manager who I do like, but his game is high intensity and even with no Europe managed to get a load of injuries. So yes it's a factor, and more so now than ever with the amount of games players are being asked to play. Ange had to learn the hard way about the necessity of managing players when involved in various competitions and signs back end of this season he was managing injuries differently.

Does that mean any manager not in Europe can't do a good job here? No, but it's not an easy thing juggling the intensity of PL along with the demands of Europe so yeah I would be sceptical about how this manager or that manager would be a better solution when there is no evidence of it. And the main options being spoke about were Frank or Silva, if that really is the case then I'd rather see how Ange starts next season and go from there tbh....

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

So any manager who doesn't manage in European competition has to be discounted? How about the fact that Ange has had to sacrifice league football in order to navigate the knockouts - where's the evidence he can manage two games a week?

IDK why this particular point has cropped up as a decider recently, there are no sure things in football and ultimately you won't know how anyone will do until they have been given the chance - Pochettino had never managed a European team before coming coming here and managed to make 2 games a week work, unless someone has actually shown they can't cope with it then it shouldn't be held against them

I agree with your points, bringing in any new manager or player is a gamble and that often is forgotten by many, there are no guarantees in team sport, without having the courage to take that gamble nobody would get a chance to show what they can do.
I was surprised when Pochettino was selected but it turned out ok, whoever we get (now or later) will eventually fail and be burned at the stake.
It's important we do get someone who can face the immense challenge they face at this club, the expectations at this club are on a par with the group who have usually been in the top 4 for over a decade, that's a heavy burden to carry.

 

[P.D.]

Fabian Hurzeler would be my preference:
- Young (youngest head coach in PL)
- Brighton 8th and hard to beat (only 2 teams lost fewer games)
- Combines that solidity with expansive attacking play with very similar system to that used by Poch.
- Started in the youth academy at Bayern Munich so knows the culture required at an elite European level.

Interesting, Brighton scout really well. Apparently Ange was their 1st choice in the event De Zerbi left so makes you think. I don't know anything about him but has the right profile in terms of style but does he have enough experience - guess in many ways only time will tell.

It's one thing to say Ange out but we need a clear plan of who to bring in, there's some good candidates and maybe CL helps attract better coaches but I wouldn't say there's anyone around that's outstanding at the moment. I like Iraola but he's still pretty raw but maybe no more than Poch. Glasner would be my first choice but don't see him leaving now.

 

[harr1984]

Great post by the way. Each item could be it's own topic.

I think we now need to remember that once this summer is complete we're converging towards a billion being spent on Ange's squad. It is as deep as I've ever known and if we add the couple of 1st team additions we could be in great shape. The 4-5 year post-Covid focus by the club has returned one major trophy. I would be shocked if we don't have more good days than bad in the next phase. There are too many right components in place now at all levels.

Of course, that does raise expectations on Ange to perform in role.

Agree with the general point. What I don't agree with is for any club 'They have spent x amount therefore should be finishing here'. Spend doesn't tell the whole story. For us yes we have spent, but a lot of that has been on youth and therefore performances are going to be up and down. We spent 40m on Gray, he's clearly a very talented boy but not yet at that price tag value. In a season or two once more experienced? Sure, he'll probably be worth that and more. And that's before we get into the question of whether managers actually wanted all the players that the money was spent on.

But absolutely we have a talented squad, and some of them have a couple of years PL experience supplemented with being European winners so of course we should be hoping for some growth from here.....

 

[billyiddo]

I never said they should automatically be discounted did I? Just that there always appears to be (and not just since Ange has been in charge) this shinier, better manager who is not at Spurs who is apparently a better option.There is more money in the PL meaning the worse/mid level clubs are now closer to the big clubs than before - hence why clubs who are not in Europe are now challenging/getting into Europe via the league at those not in Europe.

Eg Forest this season, let's see how they fare next season. Saudi Sportswashing Machine the other season had a big fall off when in Europe. Suggestions of the Bournemouth manager who I do like, but his game is high intensity and even with no Europe managed to get a load of injuries. So yes it's a factor, and more so now than ever with the amount of games players are being asked to play. Ange had to learn the hard way about the necessity of managing players when involved in various competitions and signs back end of this season he was managing injuries differently.

Does that mean any manager not in Europe can't do a good job here? No, but it's not an easy thing juggling the intensity of PL along with the demands of Europe so yeah I would be sceptical about how this manager or that manager would be a better solution when there is no evidence of it. And the main options being spoke about were Frank or Silva, if that really is the case then I'd rather see how Ange starts next season and go from there tbh....

I was pre-empting where it would have obviously gone when someone offered up a manager not at a club in European competition and if it's not a reason to discount them then why even bring it up?

It's an important part of managing at this level and unless you are going to exclusively take managers from European competition level clubs (not going to poach a league rival so then we are looking abroad where there are different questions to be asked) you need to essentially leave it to chance. Good managers will adapt to the challenge.

 

[glasgowspur]

I included Danso as the last cog that won the EL. All I was saying was that Ange's squad was assembled in the last 4 years, not 2. There will always be a Son and Davies at most clubs. I must also applaud the club for the massive effort to shift an army of players in that time.

We're in great shape squad wise and will be even better by August. We now need Ange to make the sum of the parts greater than he has for the last 2 seasons.

No, a squad was assembled over four years, a considerable part of that squad was inherited by ange. They are Ange's squad only because he is the manager, not because he chose them.
Some of that squad was bought for the previous three managers who played a completely different style of football to ange.

 

[billyiddo]

No, a squad was assembled over four years, a considerable part of that squad was inherited by ange. They are Ange's squad only because he is the manager, not because he chose them.
Some of that squad was bought for the previous three managers who played a completely different style of football to ange.

This is just part of managing a football team. Very few jobs where a manager will get a tailor made squad or even first XI specifically built for them.

Muttly is right, the squad rebuild started before Ange with Paratichi - he's been involved with transfers one way or the other over a 4 year period now

 

[harr1984]

I was pre-empting where it would have obviously gone when someone offered up a manager not at a club in European competition and if it's not a reason to discount them then why even bring it up?

It's an important part of managing at this level and unless you are going to exclusively take managers from European competition level clubs (not going to poach a league rival so then we are looking abroad where there are different questions to be asked) you need to essentially leave it to chance. Good managers will adapt to the challenge.

It's been bought up as something you have to consider, when people keep saying 'This manager has got so many points in the PL this year' therefore would be a better option. Yeah that's great, but you also have to consider the fact we have played 20 odd games more, over half a seasons worth with 8 of those games travelling around Europe midweek. So it's not as simple as a+b=c.

You can be a good manager and it not work out at Spurs, we've seen it happen before it works both ways. That doesn't mean we never take the plunge obviously. I'm quite relaxed on the manager situation, you said it yourself even before we won the tournament if he wins it he deserves the chance to start next season and I'd go along with that.

But at the same time, if Levy has found someone better then great but from the likely candidates there's no one there who's screaming out to me that it's worth binning off a guy who's managed to bring us our first European silverware in 40 years tbh. It will be easy enough to tell quickly if Ange has learnt from this seasons league shambles so I'm fine with him having the start of the season and if the same old story is developing 6-8 games in then yes let's roll the dice.....

 

[glasgowspur]

This is just part of managing a football team.

Muttly is right, the squad rebuild started before Ange with Paratichi - he's been involved with transfers one way or the other over a 4 year period now

Of course it's part of football, it's the same at just about any club in the world.
Yes paratichi has been involved for four years, but did know for years ago when he was signing players for contes formation and tactics that two years later we would throw that out the window and do a keep pivot in formation and tactics.
No he didn't.
We've lost a fair amount of money trying to load royal, Peh, reggie and several others because they are not suitable.
Ange squad has been built over four years, that's wrong.
Tottenham squad has been built over four, correct, not the same thing though.

 

[billyiddo]

It's been bought up as something you have to consider, when people keep saying 'This manager has got so many points in the PL this year' therefore would be a better option. Yeah that's great, but you also have to consider the fact we have played 20 odd games more, over half a seasons worth with 8 of those games travelling around Europe midweek. So it's not as simple as a+b=c.

You can be a good manager and it not work out at Spurs, we've seen it happen before it works both ways. That doesn't mean we never take the plunge obviously. I'm quite relaxed on the manager situation, you said it yourself even before we won the tournament if he wins it he deserves the chance to start next season and I'd go along with that.

But at the same time, if Levy has found someone better then great but from the likely candidates there's no one there who's screaming out to me that it's worth binning off a guy who's managed to bring us our first European silverware in 40 years tbh. It will be easy enough to tell quickly if Ange has learnt from this seasons league shambles so I'm fine with him having the start of the season and if the same old story is developing 6-8 games in then yes let's roll the dice.....

If a prospective manager had our league record during the periods we have been playing 2 games a week would you be confident they would be the man for the job?

Be honest now...

 

[harr1984]

If a prospective manager had our league record during the periods we have been playing 2 games a week would you be confident they would be the man for the job?

Be honest now...

You're talking as if I've said PL performance isn't a factor for considering someone I'm saying there's more to consider than that. No I don't believe all of Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford, Fulham's managers will automatically do the job our fans want....

 

[Grays_1890]

Of course it's part of football, it's the same at just about any club in the world.
Yes paratichi has been involved for four years, but did know for years ago when he was signing players for contes formation and tactics that two years later we would throw that out the window and do a keep pivot in formation and tactics.
No he didn't.
We've lost a fair amount of money trying to load royal, Peh, reggie and several others because they are not suitable.
Ange squad has been built over four years, that's wrong.
Tottenham squad has been built over four, correct, not the same thing though.

I would say the "squad for all" signings which all managers are going to be expected to work with, give or take is 2 years in.

 

[billyiddo]

Of course it's part of football, it's the same at just about any club in the world.
Yes paratichi has been involved for four years, but did know for years ago when he was signing players for contes formation and tactics that two years later we would throw that out the window and do a keep pivot in formation and tactics.
No he didn't.
We've lost a fair amount of money trying to load royal, Peh, reggie and several others because they are not suitable.
Ange squad has been built over four years, that's wrong.
Tottenham squad has been built over four, correct, not the same thing though.

Switching managerial styles obviously has some additional wastage involved but plenty of players can and do adapt to different styles - you don't only buy players who currently play in a team playing the same tactics as your current manager for example. Skills/talent can be transferable.

The players you listed there just aren't good enough fullstop and would have been sold regardless as they had their couple of years to show their worth and were left wanting. In terms of style of play Reggie & PEH probably suit Ange for example. Royal less so.

The important thing here is that we have had a senior employee/'consultant' part of the transfer process, shaping our thinking and targets.

 

[billyiddo]

You're talking as if I've said PL performance isn't a factor for considering someone I'm saying there's more to consider than that. No I don't believe all of Bournemouth, Brighton, Brentford, Fulham's managers will automatically do the job our fans want....

I'm just trying to highlight that this 2 game a week thing that has cropped up recently is a load of gonads.