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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 82 43.4%

  • Out

    Votes: 107 56.6%
  • Total voters
    189
fernadez said:
I'd quite like a journalist to ask him how he marries his thoughts about cup wins previously to now. Before he was quite dismissive (rightly) about the importance and long term effect of one. Now it seems to be what will keep him employed.
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Where did he specifically say that?
 
thfcsteff said:
Some thoughts to share, starting back at the eve of Ange's first season, offering bullet points reasons behind what has been going on (from my perspective anyway) and concluding with why it is 'Ange In' for me...


1. He lost Harry Kane on the eve of his first Prem match in charge. I will spare you the goal stats; you can look them up and see what that immediately took away.

2. He was not given a replacement/time to sign one.

3. He was given a remit to be part of a CLUB-ORCHESRATED cultural change in both attitude and operation, which included bringing in new people above him to work between him and Levy.

4. The Chelsea match saw some bad luck. It also saw him take a stand; whether you liked that stand is personal choice.

5. The combination of World Cup hangover fatigue merged with pre-season and international tournaments meant that as we got into the New Year 2024, fatigue was starting to bed in.

6. NEVER forget, elements of our support base were so obsessed with allowing City to beat us so as to ensure the goons did not win the title. Postecoglu was visibly taken aback by it. Toxic vibes everywhere. Those three points cost us CL football.

7. Postecoglu and the staff/club made some mistakes coming into this season, both in terms of recruitment and planning. He has been very open about how pre-season should've been conducted differently in hindsight. Players such as Romero, off the back of yet another grueling summer tournament, needed a softer early season landing.

8. Despite trying early season rotation, the accumulation of overall football for several years led to an increase in injuries.

9. Once 'packs' of injuries happened, combined with the inexperience of our squad overall, the transfer window was vital. That injury crisis, BTW, was unique and unlike anything we will see again IMO.

10. Nobody expected a Vicario injury, and Forster was not the right backup. This was a major mistake made in the summer (not signing the right sort of backup), who knows exactly who was at fault there, but it cost us (to my mind) at least 9 points.

11. We only partially addressed our issues in January. Kinsky? Excellent signing. Tel? Potentially great but never going to be a short term bail out. We stuck with our remit as a club from summer 2023.

12. Once Postecoglu saw what the state of play was in the window, and once we lost to Liverpool in the CC, he has explained what some of us assumed, that he made a decision to focus on one tournament which would deliver both a trophy and CL football.

13. Some have questioned why he couldn't fight on two fronts from Feb onwards. I'm sure the reasons will be forthcoming in the weeks ahead, but put simply, between long-lay off players coming back and being rusty, to rotating in players who had not spent much time training with each other for some time due to said-injuries, to trying to protect the blue-chip players who he could absolutely rely on, he made the decision to focus on one competition.

14. Most teams in our pitiful league position would've seen mutiny within the dressing room by March. Indeed, the much venerated 'winner' Jose Mourinho managed to explode the dressing room so badly that he got sacked before a Final (yes, he really f-uc-king DID). Our dressing room went the opposite way, with players closing ranks despite the best efforts of pundits and journos to drag bits of gossip and back-talking out of them.

15. Postecoglu had been quietly tweaking his 'Angeball' for a few months from February; the media were so obsessed with how 'out of control' we were that they refused to acknowledge it.

16. Make no mistake; league performances were largely sloppy and (in a few specific cases) absolutely unacceptable with regards to the players. For the most part, we paid the price for silly individual errors, and lost the vast majority of our games by a single goal margin. again, there were certainly some awful performance in there, no argument.

17. You sensed by the time we played Frankfurt that the players buy-in with Postecoglu was pretty big. And as we've seen in the last two months, it has grown into something, well, historic for us.

18. We have seen that Postecoglu took an incredibly ballsy gamble, asked the players to buy-in, got their buy-in, and in doing so, both got rewarded for their efforts by winning the Europa League and getting into the CL. In doing so, and in taking THIS specific path with this group of players, it is hard not to assume that there has been a fortification and establishment of something very special in terms of belief. The buy-in will remain total in whatever he wants them to do. Providing we back him as HE wants to be backed, we should IMO persevere next season.

Ange in.

p.s. Ferguson was on the verge of the sack when he won the cup with Utd in 89/90. They finished their league season 13th, just 5 points above the relegation zone.
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Some fair points there @thfcsteff. But I just wanted to come out in defence of Fraser Forster. You think he cost us at least 9 points? I just double checked and he has started just 7 league games;

1-1 Fulham H
1-0 Bmouth A
3-4 Chelsea H
0-5 Southampton A
3-6 Liverpool A
1-0 Forest A
2-2 Wolves H

Ignoring the Saints game (easy win). I don't think he cost us at all. We should have beaten Wolves but it wasn't down to him that we didn't. In all the others we were clearly second best. He made some good saves against Fulham and Bournemouth in particular if I recall.

He was also excellent against Roma and Rangers in the Europa League and secured us 2 valuable points.

He obviously had a shocker in the 4-3 v United in the Cup but that's about it.
 
Silly McSilly Face said:
Fabian Hurzeler would be my preference:
- Young (youngest head coach in PL)
- Brighton 8th and hard to beat (only 2 teams lost fewer games)
- Combines that solidity with expansive attacking play with very similar system to that used by Poch.
- Started in the youth academy at Bayern Munich so knows the culture required at an elite European level.
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Let's see how he does in his second season, I'm sure you don't need reminding that new coaches to the PL often do better in their first season when an unknown. Also Brighton are one of those with no European football, we've played over half a seasons more games than them. It's a different kettle of fish with expectations at this club, let alone all the extra games itself.....
 
glasgowspur said:
Who knows.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine struggled badly the year they had CL, they didn't have it this year.
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This is what some people don't seem to comprehend, the majority of managers being suggested are at clubs with no European football - it's a totally different ball game when managing a club like ours with all of Europe and then the expectations. Only have to see what it's like on here when we have won a trophy. But hey ho....
 
thfcsteff said:
Where did he specifically say that?
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"But it’s not a desperation around just winning something, because I just don’t think that gets you a sustainable opportunity to be successful. The foundation is just to play the game a certain way, which I believe brings success but also excites the punters."
 
metalgear said:
theres a whole thread for that - de berzi, inzaghi, nagelsmann, ancelotti even terzic.
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i was interested to see if any of those names change now in context of recent events. Ancelotti is likely heading to Brazil BTW. De Zerbi? Cannot stand him personally, a total ars e. Inzaghi? With our set-up? Nagelsmann, not sure where he is? Terzic? I think he'd bomb here personally.
 
carl said:
"But it’s not a desperation around just winning something, because I just don’t think that gets you a sustainable opportunity to be successful. The foundation is just to play the game a certain way, which I believe brings success but also excites the punters."
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Clearly he saw one opportunity to fulfil Champions League football, win a trophy, and build a winning mentality within the group fast. I'd be interested to know if this quote is from 2023; it feels like it is. In which case he has certainly learnt a thing or two.
 
thfcsteff said:
Clearly he saw one opportunity to fulfil Champions League football, win a trophy, and build a winning mentality within the group fast. I'd be interested to know if this quote is from 2023; it feels like it is. In which case he has certainly learnt a thing or two.
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It was indeed from 2023

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

Ange: "I want to bring success to this football club and play in a certain way" | Tottenham Hotspur

Ange Postecoglou has underlined his desire to create ‘sustainable’ success and play a certain way that excites fans.
www.tottenhamhotspur.com www.tottenhamhotspur.com
 
thfcsteff said:
Come on then, for those who want a new manager...WHO?
Who are you picking?
I want names, not 'well that isn't my job' etc, etc...come on, be BRAVE, be BOLD, name your choices...
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Will you get the standard "it's not my job to pick manager" replies from the Levy don't know what hes doing mob.
 
Spoonman said:
Some fair points there @thfcsteff. But I just wanted to come out in defence of Fraser Forster. You think he cost us at least 9 points? I just double checked and he has started just 7 league games;

1-1 Fulham H
1-0 Bmouth A
3-4 Chelsea H
0-5 Southampton A
3-6 Liverpool A
1-0 Forest A
2-2 Wolves H

Ignoring the Saints game (easy win). I don't think he cost us at all. We should have beaten Wolves but it wasn't down to him that we didn't. In all the others we were clearly second best. He made some good saves against Fulham and Bournemouth in particular if I recall.

He was also excellent against Roma and Rangers in the Europa League and secured us 2 valuable points.

He obviously had a shocker in the 4-3 v United in the Cup but that's about it.
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Fair enough, and I will admit that my comments on him were based on having to hurridly adapt to not playing out from the back because that's not his game, as opposed to a succession of errors. But yes, probably a bit harsh especially when considering those Europa games you flagged.
 
thfcsteff said:
There remains a palpable fear for some that he will be our manager next season.
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Of course there is, people don't think he's the right man to take us forwards and it will result in a wasted season - I'm willing to just deal with that as a trade off for winning the Europa League but all the issues i have with the manager from before the cup win have not just disappeared
 
thfcsteff said:
i was interested to see if any of those names change now in context of recent events. Ancelotti is likely heading to Brazil BTW. De Zerbi? Cannot stand him personally, a total ars e. Inzaghi? With our set-up? Nagelsmann, not sure where he is? Terzic? I think he'd bomb here personally.
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so now we have champions league, a new CEO and the same one that set up Arsenal, a squad with very good players and some missing gaps, more focus and investment on the medical side of things, pressure off from the trophy side but on for league performance from a club that is just above relegation zone... i believe that a lot more coaches would agree to come to the interview now.

in fact, i won't be surprised if vinai has already a few lined up as the mood in the club has been declining right up to cup final match.
 
thfcsteff said:
Hurzler currently has an overall career total 46.53% win rate.
Postecoglu currently has an overall career total of 52.94
One is certainly younger, one is certainly older.
How would Hurzler do with the pressure which comes with this job?
Of all the managers I see touted, he'd be a very interesting choice, however if we ever took that route, we'd need more patience again.
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The win rate that counts:
Postecoglu has a PL win rate of 41.33 (over 75 games) with the 5th most expensive squad in the division.
Hurzler has a PL win rate of 40.5 (over 37 games with a much smaller, less expensive squad.

More importantly, Postecoglu has a loss rate of 44.00 over 75 games.
Hurzler has a loss rate of 24.3 over 37 games.

Look, if you think Postecoglu is the best head coach we could possibly have this conversation is just going to be circular.

We shall see how it pans out next season. Doesn't look like he's going anywhere for now. Very much doubt the club would have allowed him the platform he had over the last few days if he was going.

As to this conversation about patience....do you think I have a lack of patience with Postecoglu as I want instant gratification? Intant success?

I have a lack of patience with Postecoglu because I dont think giving him patience is worthwhile.

Why do I think its not worthwhile? Because I dont see any sustainable foundations being put in place that is going to take us anywhere.

We are at the end of 2 seasons with him and:
- have we managed to address the root cause of having to go through a big portion of his first season with Emerson and Davies as our CBs and with no Maddison and Richarlison? And a big portion of his 2nd season with Gray and Dragusin/Davies as our CBs and the other litany of injuries?
- have we addressed the continued defensive errors and gaps that make us lose a disproportionate number of low scoring games?
- Has he rectified the comparative poor performance against higher quality teams? I.e. compare our record v top half PL vs bottom half PL and Europa League opponents?
- Has he rectified the decline/lack of development in players individual performances under him?

He has won a trophy by throwing all his principles out the window and parking the bus in knock out games against teams that don't have the quality to break us down. Not diminishing it but I do question what we are building here and where we are going with this? Still feels like a bit of a chaotic mess.....and like a drunken sailor blindfolded chucking darts he's managed to hit the bullseye.....
 
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glasgowspur said:
You named four starters there, add in son Porro all here before ange, difficult to argue that's his team.
A team bought for his requirements
Danso came four months ago (and helped us to a EL trophy BTW), it's a bit disingenuous to include him.
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I included Danso as the last cog that won the EL. All I was saying was that Ange's squad was assembled in the last 4 years, not 2. There will always be a Son and Davies at most clubs. I must also applaud the club for the massive effort to shift an army of players in that time.

We're in great shape squad wise and will be even better by August. We now need Ange to make the sum of the parts greater than he has for the last 2 seasons.
 
Much as I dislike the fact this is a business and if I'd been employed to achieve some specific targets such as win a trophy and qualify for CL I'd be tinkled off to get the sack doing it.
I know I'm totally out of step with modern world, sport is and never was a business to me, it was a pastime to enjoy at many levels and not winning every time never bothered me as there where other things in the experience. Never bought into my club is a BIG CLUB mentality all clubs are big to their fans.
In the long run it will make no difference if we sack him or not, we will rise and fall as in all things in life and you have to learn to live with it.
 
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