• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 78 41.3%

  • Out

    Votes: 111 58.7%
  • Total voters
    189
billyiddo said:
It brought everyone together in the moment and the immediate aftermath, however as Ange himself said* from the outset when quizzed on winning trophies, without the foundations in place to consistently compete, a one off trophy doesn't provide anything beyond that singular moment. Now that moment has passed we're left to ponder where we are heading


*can't find the quotes maybe someone can find them, but Ange was talking up the importance of putting everything in place furst over winning a trophy
Click to expand...

This one?

"I want to win every game; trust me, I was disappointed on that night as well. But that’s not the endgame for me. It’s not about just winning something for the sake of winning something.

"It's about building something. That's what's always driven me my whole career. I want to build clubs that have sustainable success and supporters go into every season feeling good about their prospects and watching their team play football."
 
"But it’s not a desperation around just winning something, because I just don’t think that gets you a sustainable opportunity to be successful. The foundation is just to play the game a certain way, which I believe brings success but also excites the punters."

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

Ange: "I want to bring success to this football club and play in a certain way" | Tottenham Hotspur

Ange Postecoglou has underlined his desire to create ‘sustainable’ success and play a certain way that excites fans.
www.tottenhamhotspur.com www.tottenhamhotspur.com

As stated is was from 2023 though, so perhaps he doesn't belive this anymore? Cause we didn't win playing the way he has spoken of.
 
Baleforce said:
Winning the UEFA cup again was brilliant.

But we’ve finished 17th.

That’s unacceptable.
Click to expand...
The league position is pretty irrelevant though. Do you believe we'd be 17th if we hadn't gone so far in the Europa League? Look how heavily we have rotated for the last month or 2. And yesterday was bound to happen after the heroics and subsequent celebrations last week.
 
balesleftboot said:
The league position is pretty irrelevant though. Do you believe we'd be 17th if we hadn't gone so far in the Europa League? Look how heavily we have rotated for the last month or 2. And yesterday was bound to happen after the heroics and subsequent celebrations last week.
Click to expand...

It's not irrelevant when you have 65k supporters paying the most expensive prices in Europe to watch absolute dross in the hope we might beat B level European teams to win a trophy.
 
fernadez said:
"But it’s not a desperation around just winning something, because I just don’t think that gets you a sustainable opportunity to be successful. The foundation is just to play the game a certain way, which I believe brings success but also excites the punters."

www.tottenhamhotspur.com

Ange: "I want to bring success to this football club and play in a certain way" | Tottenham Hotspur

Ange Postecoglou has underlined his desire to create ‘sustainable’ success and play a certain way that excites fans.
www.tottenhamhotspur.com www.tottenhamhotspur.com

As stated is was from 2023 though, so perhaps he doesn't belive this anymore? Cause we didn't win playing the way he has spoken of.
Click to expand...

Yes I think this was it - it ties in with how I view things so I was happy to hear the new manager saying it at the time.

I think there's a lot of what he said early on when he was mapping out his ethos that has essentially been turned on it's head. Makes you wonder whether you should pay a blind bit of notice to what he says.
 
balesleftboot said:
The league position is pretty irrelevant though. Do you believe we'd be 17th if we hadn't gone so far in the Europa League? Look how heavily we have rotated for the last month or 2. And yesterday was bound to happen after the heroics and subsequent celebrations last week.
Click to expand...

Yes.

Edit to quantify

billyiddo said:
Chelsea A - L
Southampton H - W
Wolves A - L
Forest H - D
Liverpool A - L
West Ham A - L
Palace H - D
Brighton H - L
Click to expand...

That's how I saw our league form panning out after the AZ games when the points thread was created and I believe would have us right where we are
 
Last edited:
balesleftboot said:
The league position is pretty irrelevant though. Do you believe we'd be 17th if we hadn't gone so far in the Europa League? Look how heavily we have rotated for the last month or 2. And yesterday was bound to happen after the heroics and subsequent celebrations last week.
Click to expand...
The rotation isn't as much as an issue as the tactics. We play and concede regardless of the personel. The thing about yesterday is that it wasn't a drop off in levels from normal, it was the normal. So if days of partying, drinking and lack of sleep has no effect on performance, that points to some serious issues.
 
fernadez said:
The rotation isn't as much as an issue as the tactics. We play and concede regardless of the personel. The thing about yesterday is that it wasn't a drop off in levels from normal, it was the normal. So if days of partying, drinking and lack of sleep has no effect on performance, that points to some serious issues.
Click to expand...

It's where my head is at and what I've just posted on another thread.

When I roll back to our first league cup game against Fulham under Ange where we lost, I said at the time that there is only 2 reasons you make mass changes to a line-up. The first is that you've been in the job long enough and every one of your squad gets what is asked of them and can easily interchange. The second is that your squad is deep enough and you have the talent to do so. That day was Ange's first failure in the role in my mind.

Now we find ourselves in this place where it is almost institutionalised into this squad that we can't change too much without things "breaking". We have to admit, that is a massive concern where you see a quality team that is probably better than the opposition on paper but losing regularly by 2 or 3 goal margins.

There has to be a really tough conversation with Ange by Munn and Venkatesham at this stage. Ange needs to have some good answers as to why this is happening to keep his job. He needs top be able to talk specifics rather than stay in the philosophical space like he seems to do.
 
I think our Europa win is being underrated by some. Frankfurt finished 3rd in Bundesliga and hadn't lost at home in about a year and yet we went there to a very intimidating atmosphere and defended superbly showing we can do it when it matters.

Then you have Bodo- I've seen it said that if we'd played Lazio we'd have lost. This is the same Lazio team that went to Norway and did lose- as most teams do in them rather exceptional circumstances. Yet again we went there and never looked liked conceding.

Even United in the final. Yes this is the worst United side in many years but they still seem to have a pedigree when it comes to winning finals as we have seen for the past few years. We never really looked like conceding and the whole affair was incredibly un-'spurzy'

And that's it for me. For years we have seen excellent football only to fall when it matters. How typical for example was it to see Redknapps far superior Spurs team lose to Portsmouth in that Semi Final in 2010. Or Pochs superior team to lose to Unkted in the semi in 2018. All them years of finishing above Arsenal whilst winning nothing and watching them still pick up the odd bit of silverware.

Ange said he would win and he did.
 
balesleftboot said:
The league position is pretty irrelevant though. Do you believe we'd be 17th if we hadn't gone so far in the Europa League? Look how heavily we have rotated for the last month or 2. And yesterday was bound to happen after the heroics and subsequent celebrations last week.
Click to expand...

Yes I do.

And I think the rotation was only heavy for a couple of weeks, not months.

League position is the most important metric imo.
 
djp82 said:
The league doesn’t lie. As they say.

This is the marker of how good you are as a side. Cups can be won by anyone who can put a run together.
Click to expand...
Yep. Over 38 games you'll generally find your level with a few exceptions (Leicester or Deportivo La Coruna coming from nowhere to win the PL or La Liga only to dissappear quickly back into obscurity). Cup football is a strange old beast and rewards temporary runs of form and luck. Of course you do get the concept of "cup teams", teams that can raise their performance for one-off games on a fairly consistent level. Spurs used to be a cup team. More recent example could be Sevilla in Spain....
 
balesleftboot said:
The league position is pretty irrelevant though. Do you believe we'd be 17th if we hadn't gone so far in the Europa League? Look how heavily we have rotated for the last month or 2. And yesterday was bound to happen after the heroics and subsequent celebrations last week.
Click to expand...

Teams have won the treble and double without dropping off a cliff.

We were losing for fun before we got out of the EL group stage.

The end of the day twenty two PL losses isn't down to injuries and squad rotation.
 
balesleftboot said:
I think our Europa win is being underrated by some. Frankfurt finished 3rd in Bundesliga and hadn't lost at home in about a year and yet we went there to a very intimidating atmosphere and defended superbly showing we can do it when it matters.

Then you have Bodo- I've seen it said that if we'd played Lazio we'd have lost. This is the same Lazio team that went to Norway and did lose- as most teams do in them rather exceptional circumstances. Yet again we went there and never looked liked conceding.

Even United in the final. Yes this is the worst United side in many years but they still seem to have a pedigree when it comes to winning finals as we have seen for the past few years. We never really looked like conceding and the whole affair was incredibly un-'spurzy'

And that's it for me. For years we have seen excellent football only to fall when it matters. How typical for example was it to see Redknapps far superior Spurs team lose to Portsmouth in that Semi Final in 2010. Or Pochs superior team to lose to Unkted in the semi in 2018. All them years of finishing above Arsenal whilst winning nothing and watching them still pick up the odd bit of silverware.

Ange said he would win and he did.
Click to expand...
There's no doubt it was an achievement. And it shouldn't be downplayed. Only analysed in the context as to whether that achievement should allow a stay of execution from the horrendous league performances.

The achievement was certainly based on a change of tactics for the knock out stages and the resting of key players for the league fixtures around it.

It does appear as though Ange is toying with the idea of trying to adapt this successful formula across the board. We certainly seemed to set up to try and sit back and frustrate Brighton and concede possession in the league game afterwards. And the surprisingly strong team may have indicated it was a bit of an experiment although that's a guess clearly.

I just question how sustainable a foundation this success was, given it involved abandoning pretty much everything he believed in footballing-wise and also abandoning the league fixtures around it.

Nobody can tell me that's a formula that can be repeated. It was a formula derived, lets face it, from desparation knowing this was the only route to keeping his job.

So we are then left with the question of where we go in terms of next season, and the answer has to be based on the foundations he's built over 76 league games. And those foundations.....well they're built of sand.....very fine, porous sand.
 
I think that we are in recency bias mode now. We won the cup so suddenly so many were wanting Ange to stay as the feel good factor was at its highest. Ange as manager had delivered us a moment that few had dared to dream could be a reality. The celebrations, the trophy parade, the feel good factor that was present. How could we change a manager that had delivered all that?

And then we were beaten heavily by Brighton in the last game of the season in spite of playing what was pretty much our strongest available team on the day. We were awful, particularly in the second half. There may have been justification to an extent about why this happened but it doesn’t take from how poor the performance and result were and how poor our league campaign has been, it’s been unacceptable. So suddenly we were presented with this side of Ange and the club in which it’s not all feel good factor, and we have some negativity brewing again with fear for what may happen next season if our league from cannot be rectified. Suddenly the swingometer of support swung against Ange from many again.

I feel like many have Ange in revolving doors in their head; forever grateful for the Europa League win but concerned by the abysmal league performances and results.

We have a very good first team, need to improve areas of squad depth, but we should be a top 6 club at least league wise next season and it’s questioned if Ange can deliver that. It’s sad as he brought us our happiest moments in a long time, but people are doubting that he’s the answer after this season.

There’s no excuse for losing 22 league matches and ending the season with less than 40 points. What can change for next season with Ange for us to be getting top 6?

There are positives to be liked; he deflects criticism from the players during his press conferences. He will use an abundance of excuses, some appear contrived, but he won’t blame the players. He also appeared eager to ensure that the praise for winning the Europa League went mostly to the players and not to himself. When on the stage, he stood away from the players and only joined them when they came over and pulled him into the group. He clearly has a strong position within the squad and they appear keen to work for and with him.

Unless Levy is planning to back Ange to unprecedented levels this summer then Ange has a big question over his head as to whether he can be a longer term success or a one off cup winner who brought a special moment to us all but is ultimately doomed to fail as many have before him in attempting to bring to the club sustained periods of success.
 
HarryBreadbap said:
I'm not worried about what happened in the eighties to be fair.

Are you seriously comparing Burkinshaw to this fraud?
Click to expand...
No not comparing. burkinshaw was my poch hence my username I loved the guy.
Just pointing out the poor stats you posted were of burkinshaw. his early record wasn't great but given time he built something special. It's not impossible for Ange to do the same
 
billyiddo said:
I think the point with ETH is that United let the post FA Cup win emotions change their mind over sacking him that summer and ultimately nothing changed/improved with him staying
Click to expand...

Ten Hag’s first 2 seasons, culminating in that FA Cup win.

Won 41 Drawn 12 Lost 23 For 115 Against 101 Points 135

Compared to Postecoglou’s PL record to date:

Won 31 Drawn 11 Lost 34 For 138 Against 126 Points 104

And our PL record over the 2 seasons, where we went through 4 managers, prior to his appointment:

Won 40 Drawn 11 Lost 25 For 139 Against 103 Points 131

Losing Kane plus Father Time catching up with Son helps explain us scoring fewer goals but to have conceded 23 more times despite upgrading Sanchez, Dier, Rodon, Tanganga and (a past it) Lloris with Van de Ven, Dragusin, Danso, Gray and Vicario does call his tactics into question. Especially when the gaffer has shown that he is content to park the bus for Europa League in order to win matches, so why not show some of this pragmatism in domestic league.

Even those tumultuous 2 seasons where we went from Pochettino to Mourinho to Mason we picked up more points than Ange has:

Won 34 Drawn 19 Lost 23 For 129 Against 92 Points 121

Then if we look at the decline of Pochettino’s team when the squad had stagnated and he sacrificed PL in order to get us to a CL final, can but dream of such a negative spiral now.

Won 46 Drawn 10 Lost 20 For 141 Against 75 Points 148
 
There's absolutely no doubt that we are all in the throws of an amazing period of romantic euphoria. However when the dust settles it is clear our team have regressed in terms of style and results bar an ugly but beautiful miracle.

We can enjoy the euphoria but we also want success for the future.

Simple question, is the Europa win and the obvious squad togetherness under Ange enough to disregard our regression in style and results?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back